Make Armageddon more casual: Increase skill gain

[Yam]

Can we look at increasing the rate at which skills increase in Armageddon? Especially weapon and certain combat skills (dual wield and two handed).

Our playerbase is aging. Many of us started playing Armageddon in our late teens or early twenties when spending 5 hours a day on a text-based roleplaying game (or hack and slash if you started way back then) was doable. Now most of us have careers, kids, and obligations that keep us from spending as much timestaring at text scroll. It's extremely difficult to play Armageddon casually both because characters need to be present to maintain IC relationships and because characters take a long, long, long time to skill up.

Combat skills are especially onerous. It isn't unusual to spend an IC year in the T'zai Byn sparring for an hour each and every day and come out with apprentice weapon/combat skills. It currently takes something on the order of 10 days played to get to journeymanish level combat skills. That's absolutely ludicrous. Ten days is 240 hours, 6 weeks of a full time job, or $3600 at $15 an hour.

As it stands Armageddon has some of the highest ability disparity between characters with different playtimes. Joe Grebber who can manage to play for 5 hours a day and fight hawks will almost always have a significant combat advantage over Bob Byn Sergeant who can only play 3 hours a day.  I think this can be alleviated somewhat by fiddling with the way skills - especially combat skills - increase. It has always been something thrown about, but I think it's time we seriously consider it, because right now the opportunity cost to get a journeyman weapon skill has a low end of $3600... and that's insane.

[boog]

I totally agree, despite a lot of the playerbase resenting me for saying so.

I have kids. But I still feel inclined to try to log in and eke out a little bit of training so I can get those gainz.

It's also hard to RP anything without having the skills to at least semi-back it up. You essentially have to start every character off as, "They were x, but now they're Y," or else it's not really logical.

REGARDLESS. TL;DR:

The yeas have it!

[Jingo]

...

I pledge my whole-hearted support behind this initiative.

In all seriousness. I agree. It would also take the sting away from losing characters and allow players to perhaps take larger risks.

[Beethoven]

I'm a musician without a regular job, so I can afford to spend a lot of time playing, especially when I'm putting off practicing. In fact, I think I annoy other people because no one can compete with my playtimes, and they assume I expect them to play as much as I do, which couldn't be further from the truth!

Despite my ridiculous availability, there are a lot of people that I want to play with who "just don't have time for it." I know the timesink/grind puts off new players and drives away old. So I would agree that maybe skill gains, particularly combat skill gains, could be looked at. The opportunity to learn from successes would be particularly helpful, though probably one of the more difficult ways to code faster skill gains.

[nauta]

There is, I believe, one option on the table: you can special app a skill increase.  However, when I went to the main web-site to pull down a link, I couldn't find too much information on it.

So the help file for Special Applications (http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Special%20Applications) mentions this:

We are also currently testing out extended subguilds and skill increases using the same process for special applications. See the helpfiles on both of these subjects for details.

But when I went to the Skill Increases link there's no mention of it (http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Skill%20Increases)

One problem I see is that solutions would benefit everyone (casuals and non-casuals) alike, and so you'd more or less end up with the same results against PCs.  So, what if you had some sort of way of calculating how 'casual' a player is, and give them benefits as a result.  For instance, if Bob logs in 3 hrs a week, they would fall into the skill_gains at +10% for that week.  5 hrs a week, skill_gains at +5%.  More than 5hrs a week or less than 3hrs a week: skill_gains at +0%.  (You can play with my numbers, baby.)

ETA: Orrrrr, this.  Increase the rate at which you learn two-fold while also increasing the 'time gap' after a fail before you can learn again two-fold.

[boog]

Skill bumps are limited per year, I believe.

[Malken]

Skill bumps are fine but once you get into the game you're still stuck with the same problem as before. Getting a bump to journeyman in slashing is pretty nifty and useful but you still need to sacrifice your life to Ginka if you ever want a chance to hit master one day. (in ALL of my characters played, I've achieved that feat once in my life, and I think I was playing like 8+ hours a day for an entire summer + fall) - Almost lost my girlfriend and great GPA to it, yeah, no thanks.

[Yam]

There is, I believe, one option on the table: you can special app a skill increase.  However, when I went to the main web-site to pull down a link, I couldn't find too much information on it.

So the help file for Special Applications (http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Special%20Applications) mentions this:

We are also currently testing out extended subguilds and skill increases using the same process for special applications. See the helpfiles on both of these subjects for details.

But when I went to the Skill Increases link there's no mention of it (http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Skill%20Increases)

One problem I see is that solutions would benefit everyone (casuals and non-casuals) alike, and so you'd more or less end up with the same results against PCs.  So, what if you had some sort of way of calculating how 'casual' a player is, and give them benefits as a result.  For instance, if Bob logs in 3 hrs a week, they would fall into the skill_gains at +10% for that week.  5 hrs a week, skill_gains at +5%.  More than 5hrs a week or less than 3hrs a week: skill_gains at +0%.  (You can play with my numbers, baby.)

There comes a point when you have to spend a significant amount of time actually fighting to increase certain combat skills. What I'm advocating for is increasing skillsgains in such a way that it takes less time in combat to actually increase a skill. It should have a flat effect of giving people more non-fighting time period. So both high hour and low hour players get more time to do stuff other than spar.

I don't think there's a way to completely remove the gap between high hour and low hour players and I think that's fine.

[nauta]

Skill bumps are fine but once you get into the game you're still stuck with the same problem as before. Getting a bump to journeyman in slashing is pretty nifty and useful but you still need to sacrifice your life to Ginka if you ever want a chance to hit master one day. (in ALL of my characters played, I've achieved that feat once in my life, and I think I was playing like 8+ hours a day for an entire summer + fall) - Almost lost my girlfriend and great GPA to it, yeah, no thanks.

I'd be for a proposal that looks to balance things to allow casuals to reach 'fun/useful' levels for RP -- being useful to your boss --, which in my view fall into the mid-apprentice/low-journeyman level for combat skills, certainly not 'master'.

And just as some anecdotal evidence, I recently played a ranger and a warrior with moderate stats (and no skill increase spec. app.) and I found I was useful enough after about a dozen sparring/combat sessions with a given type (humanoid, bug).  I forget the numbers (apprentice-ish or journeyman-ish), but I started with 'haha flee' and moved to 'killed it, yes!' in about a dozen attempts.

There have been at least two important changes recently that might inform this sort of discussion:

o the correction of hidden mob-type offense/defense scores -- so you might be great at killing gith but suck at killing vultures, I guess.

o whatever tweak Nergal et al. implemented about training with better opponents a couple months back.

[roughneck]

It's really not that hard to get your character to a reasonable skill level. You just have to... use the skills that you want to get better. Like, a failure once a RL day will get you to where you need to be in less than two weeks. 30 - 40 minutes play time a day is all you need, and 30 - 40 minutes is ample time to spar and have a tavern convo, or a little hunting trip, or cast a few spells, or craft a few things, or sneak around, or whatever it is you want your character to do.

[BadSkeelz]

"Get where you need to be in less than two weeks" is a ridiculous fucking statement for a video game.

[Malken]

"Get where you need to be in less than two weeks" is a ridiculous fucking statement for a video game.

Don't worry, his estimate is total BS so it doesn't matter.

[path]

I find it nearly impossible to train up combat skills. If there have been changes lately to mediate this, that's fantastic. Other guilds and skill types, with appropriate effort, I can make make all manageable.

I've also had a combat character with the special apped bumps and they show in survivability, but they're in no imaginable way a match for the players with the time and patience to plug it in all day, every day in the sparring circles, bless their hearts.

I just can't possibly.

I wanted to edit to add, I think Nauta has a really key point here. It's not at all about being the Baddass of the Known. It's more about feeling useful. I roll into clan after clan feeling like my PC is basically a useless piece of trash, and instead of experiencing the desirable character progression of that changing, I just don't have the time. So it never happens. I seem to stay at base and static situations generally aren't the most fun.

[RogueGunslinger]

I decided to get back into the game after a short break. Rolled a warrior. Got in the game to kill some scrabs for fun, fell off my mount 4 times in a row, didn't get anywhere, had 80/110 hp which I had to rest up, by the time I was full HP the gates were about to close... Decided instead to just log out.

The problem isn't that skills gain too slowly(unless you're a combat skill), it's that they're fucking horrible to use at low levels. So I guess I'm okay with faster progression, but I don't think it's going to fix the problem all the way.

[Yam]

So I guess I'm okay with faster progression, but I don't think it's going to fix the problem all the way.

I don't think it's the ultimate fix either. But I think it's an incremental improvement we should push for.

[Desertman]

I feel in a lot of ways the game is already "easy-mode" catering to the lowest common denominator compared to what it used to be.

Anything that pushes us further in that direction gets a thumbs down from me.

Sorry.

[path]

I feel in a lot of ways the game is already "easy-mode" catering to the lowest common denominator compared to what it used to be.

Anything that pushes us further in that direction gets a thumbs down from me.

Sorry.

You just keep getting more efficient, leaving us in the dust

[Malken]

I feel in a lot of ways the game is already "easy-mode" catering to the lowest common denominator compared to what it used to be.

I prefer to see it as Armageddon adapting to the gaming reality of 2016 and an aging community than going "easy-mode" but I understand your point of view.

[Narf]

I've always been in favor of having a "casual character" option available to players. You give up some things (likely lower caps), but in exchange you either start with higher skills or gain skills faster.

I posted about this under the old "what do we do about lack of raiders?" thread, but it's just as applicable here. This sort of thing would let you opt to play a character either casually, or with a high chance of "early retirement" and still be able to really play the game as opposed to just training all the time. You wouldn't be able to play hyper-powerful characters this way, but if you're playing casually or playing dangerously that's probably an inherent limitation to the playstyle that's already observed anyways.

[whitt]

I confess if I stop playing Arm one day, it will likely be because the concept of playing another character through Novice skill levels has become unbearable.

[Miradus]

I confess if I stop playing Arm one day, it will likely be because the concept of playing another character through Novice skill levels has become unbearable.

It's why I usually get bored with every character at around 3-5 days played.

If you can get a skill up to a theoretical 100, and you get one point increase for every fail, but with an average wisdom only once per hour ... then you're looking at ~100 hours to master a skill. For a casual player who drops 3 hours a night (which I would say ISN'T very casual at all), then it will take about 1 month on a single character to master skills. If you can play 10 hours a day without losing your job or your spouse then you can do it in a little over one week.

That's in theory based on quizzing helpers about it. I haven't found it to work out quite that smoothly. It seems like it wouldn't be THAT big of a deal to have to take a month to get up to the top end. I have certainly put in a lot more effort in other muds, even hack and slash ones.

But it FEELS worse under this system. I'll log on and get a skill fail and then be like, "What do I do for the rest of the hour? Roleplay? I'm 75 rooms away from the nearest tavern. Do some more crafting? These materials are too valuable to waste on a non-increase potential fail."

I would like to gain skill increases THROUGH SUCCESS instead of through failure. I have never believed in the "learn more through failure" mantra that's tossed about. It's a flimsy justification. I can go out in my yard and fail at kung-fu all day long and not suddenly become a kung-fu master. No, you learn by seeing what WORKS as well as what fails.

I would advocate a system where you get a chance to learn through success or failure with no timer. Then when you play your three hours per night you're going to get more than 3 upticks.

[lostinspace]

I used to alternate between gicks and mundanes because it kept things from getting too stale with only leveling one way. Not looking forward to having to worry about weapons skills and such when I finally roll a gick.

[Armaddict]

Disagree.

All this looks to do is try to equalize somehow by making everyone maxed.  That's ridiculous, given where that puts the idea of progression in the game as a whole.

A better idea is to stop thinking of the game as something you only get into once your skills are high enough.

[Armaddict]

"Get where you need to be in less than two weeks" is a ridiculous fucking statement for a video game.

No, it is not, in a game that most of us play fairly regularly and for long term.

This is not Skyrim, where you play it until you win the game and toss it aside.  We play it over and over and over again, and the insinuation that everyone should be getting closer to maximum skill levels faster is actually a pretty shit argument.  I've seen you talk about branching skills that I've -never branched- on rangers and such in fifteen days of playtime.  I've played those same classes to 40 and 50 days with constant playtime.  It would appear a skills-centric view is giving you the idea that everyone is ahead of you when there's nothing that actually supports that argument.

Go the other way.  Make skills invisible again, for everyone, and these silly discussions that assume everyone needs to be advanced and master at everything goes away.

[Malken]

Go the other way.  Make skills invisible again, for everyone, and these silly discussions that assume everyone needs to be advanced and master at everything goes away.

With the rest of the few players still willing to sacrifice their rl away, yeah.