Mages and purpose...

[BadSkeelz]

The only problem is that, game lore-wise, the main reason magic is feared is because the despotic rulers want it that way.

I can see deciding to adjust the actual lore of the game to have magic become corrupted by the abuse it's sustained via said despots over the years... or maybe by nilaz.

BUT, any updates to the game lore should be made carefully, thoughtfully, and with an eye toward making a fun yet challenging game for everyone, not just... over the top GOT-style grimdark crap. I like harsh, sure, but it needs to be balanced out. This is still supposed to be a multiplayer RPG, novel/tv series style tropes rarely translate perfectly.

please.

The fear of Magick being a propaganda tool is a thing, yes. But it's not the main reason.

Tulukis fear and hate magick because their City was blown up by raging, wild elementals. Allanak hasn't had anything quite so dramatic (although there's been at least one elemental rampage in recent history) but magick is presented as a dangerous, unstable force to be wary of at best.

Elementalists are communing with powers outside of human comprehension, powers who generally turn out to be rather dickish if they're allowed to run wild. It's in the Allanaki Templarate's interest for people to distrust magick, but they didn't invent that distrust.

[BadSkeelz]

The biggest benefit of including Gemmed in wider society is that it would put them in to more locked rooms, sitting down, where we can kill them.

[Asmoth]

The biggest benefit of including Gemmed in wider society is that it would put them in to more locked rooms, sitting down, where we can kill them.

Or they could kill you...

[Pale Horse]

The biggest benefit of including Gemmed in wider society is that it would put them in to more locked rooms, sitting down, where we can kill them.

Or they could kill you...

I had a situation like that, once.  My rogue magicker, hiding out in the city, had a 'rinther approach them and try to talk them into conducting some business in the 'rinth.  Said 'rinther then draws my character into a secluded room and attempts to kill them.

Thank you, random 'rinther, for taking me out into a secluded area where the guard couldn't interfere.

Out came the magick, down went the 'rinther and away went my character, no one else the wiser.

[Armaddict]

The only problem is that, game lore-wise, the main reason magic is feared is because the despotic rulers want it that way.

This is inaccurate, lore-wise.  Lore-wise, it is because the average person cannot differentiate between elementalism and sorcery;  They know there -is- a difference, but they can't tell what it is.  They do depend on templars to tell them which is which, or some of the particularly patient may be able to figure it out over time.  Lore-wise, this has resulted in all magick, elementalist and sorcery, having negative connotations, because the knowledge that magick destroys the world and people is known fact, with little beyond that.  Magick has been used for a long time, and all the benefits of it have been lost in the light that it wrecked the world.

This carries over into the short term.  Even when a mage promises you that it's harmless, that everything will be fine...of -course- they'd say that, because evil things always try to deceive you into letting them do something to you.  As Skeelz said, the despots have definitely capitalized on this (probably smugfacing at Tek's own contribution), but the overall 'lore' that exists is a very negative light on them.  Tribals maintained spirituality around it, whereas the 'civilized' centers focused on the consequences of the use of magick.  While this may not be something recited about, that is the origin of the 'magick hate'.  That is the long term lore.

Magick raped the world and killed lots of people, and that is what is remembered about it through the ages.

[Asmoth]

All of these different views are interesting, but let's not lose track of the point of this topic, the magickers need more shit to do. Be it jobs and or clans.

[Delirium]

Armaddict: we agree really, though your viewpoint is a great example of why people are taught to fear magic even though it can actually be used for great good.

I'm not at all saying we should change that and turn people into hippy-dippy preservers, I'm saying that magick in reality tends to be quite predictable and almost scientific in its use and application. Which is a lot of fun, granted, but it also makes it hard to fear when you know that Krathi's fireball is always going to hit its intended target.

I've seen some great examples of magick always having a terrible hidden cost, and I love it, but that's only ever reflected in staff-supported roleplay, which makes it feel almost punitive. I'd like it if the code reflected the reality better, whatever that reality is. Which is another problem - that reality isn't well defined and has silently changed in the past.

Better defining the role and flavor of magick in the game beyond "OMG FEAR ME HARSH" and updating the code to reflect that would go a long way toward being able to integrate magickers into the gameworld without having to constantly reprimand people who, innocently or no, "don't get it".

If people should fear magick, make it more unpredictable. Unpredictable stuff is scary.

As it is CODED now, magick is a science, not a force of unknowable, barely tamed power.

OT,

Valid goals for mages are hard to come up with, but honestly it helps not to think of "magick goals" - think of them as a personal goals.

What do they, as a person, want to do with their life?

How does magick help or hinder that?

How do they feel about that?

How do they react? Inwardly? Outwardly?

[Asmoth]

Ok, finally at a real computer to post some real responses.,,

Magick raped the world and killed lots of people, and that is what is remembered about it through the ages.

BUT, any updates to the game lore should be made carefully, thoughtfully, and with an eye toward making a fun yet challenging game for everyone, not just... over the top GOT-style grimdark crap. I like harsh, sure, but it needs to be balanced out. This is still supposed to be a multiplayer RPG, novel/tv series style tropes rarely translate perfectly.

The fear of Magick being a propaganda tool is a thing, yes. But it's not the main reason.

Tulukis fear and hate magick because their City was blown up by raging, wild elementals. Allanak hasn't had anything quite so dramatic (although there's been at least one elemental rampage in recent history) but magick is presented as a dangerous, unstable force to be wary of at best.

Elementalists are communing with powers outside of human comprehension, powers who generally turn out to be rather dickish if they're allowed to run wild. It's in the Allanaki Templarate's interest for people to distrust magick, but they didn't invent that distrust.

Honestly, I both agree with what I said and agree with Armaddict (I don't want wilderness groups to be composed of the tank, three dps, and a water cleric healing in the back), and there's only two things that will help fix this situation that I can see:

1) Retool the magick code to be both unpredictably scary and useful instead of foolproof and better than non-mages at 90% of helpful shit. Give people an actual, coded reason to worry about using magic and they'll do it automatically.
2) Write proper documentation about how gemmed mages currently live and work in Allanak instead of just a line or two about how feared and destitute they are with no actual evidence that magic does anything really horrible.

Okay, to address all those posts more or less.

Water mages are highly employable, amongst those who would hire any
mage to begin with. As companions on journeys they can be worth incredible
sums of money, and as permanent parts of clans or Houses worth even more.
Due to the widespread unease generally felt around any mage, however, only
large organizations generally will consider hiring a water elementalist.

It already is lore that Mages, particularly water mages are HIGHLY EMPLOYABLE, yet everyone cherry picks which lore they want to stick to.

If I was Asmoth Salarr, I would be hiring a fucking water mage quick as shit.  I don't have to pay to get water, EVER.  If my favorite employee gets maimed by a Mekillot, no worries, call in the Water Mage.

He would be "Worth incredible sums of money" to me...

So folks, hire your local water mage today.

EDIT: I may have misquoted or deleted a quote line somewhere in there, but you get the idea.

[Armaddict]

That helpfile gets brought up in every thread because it's the outlier that defies all the other documentation.  So for the umpteenth time, I believe that such is a language thing; it is describing what water mages can do the same way it does every other class, i.e. Burglars are highly employable as spies.  Pickpockets are highly employable for these skills.  Rangers are highly employable for these functions.  So on and so forth.

With the number of times that helpfile has been discussed/argued, it basically falls in the 'can't be used either way' column, due to its refutations and questionable presentation.

Delirium:  We are in agreement.  I want mages to have more to do, I really do.  I just don't believe integration, as magick stands right now, is a good solution.  After the changes you presented, I'd be all for it, because there would be a built in barrier against relying on it or truly embracing it.  As is, I'm looking for internal solutions.  Things mages can do to give mages things to do.  More inter-temple plots, be they conflict or cooperation.  More shady interventions for their own benefits.  More gemmed vs ungemmed conflicts and cooperation.

Basically, I'd like to have a much less -unified- council of allanaki mages that doesn't really get involved in external business.  I think more interesting relationships between mages and other mages will give more to do.  It will create a 'magick world' where magick is more common, but it's so terribly hidden from the populace to save themselves that whenever an external PC -does- get involved, it's mindblowing that no one knows this is happening.  I want that careful separation to be maintained, out of self-preservation, but with real things happening, as well.  I don't feel this requires staff driven anything, I think the players of mages just need to stop carebearing into allies under the gem and trust in distrust, more.

That elkrosian enlisted that rukkian to tangle with Whira's purity and make more sandstorms, I know it!  HE MUST BE STOPPED.  Made up?  Yes.  But also real.

[nauta]

Water mages are highly employable, amongst those who would hire any
mage to begin with. As companions on journeys they can be worth incredible
sums of money, and as permanent parts of clans or Houses worth even more.
Due to the widespread unease generally felt around any mage, however, only
large organizations generally will consider hiring a water elementalist.

Just to pop in here -- as a matter of interpretation, what the first line could (maybe should) be interpreted to mean is this:

Amongst those who would hire any mage to begin with [i.e., about 1% of the population, tops], water mages are highly employable [i.e., the most likely to be employed, in that tiny fraction].

So 99% (let's say) of 1% is still a tiny fraction, and yields the results I think documentation and lore demand: that even water mages (who offer the obvious good for a desert planet: water) are not actually hardly ever employed.  But if someone (through their own sickness or whatever) employs a gick (which is rare), it would likely be a water gick.

The irony, though, is that, in point of coded reality, Whirans and Drovians are probably the most employed gicks among the PC population, since water isn't actually that rare (codedly).

I'm with LauraMars' two-fold suggestion: 1. Codedly make magick more random. 2. Provide some documentation for life as a gemmed (in line with the excellent documentation for life as a gick in a tribe).

[Asmoth]

A bunch of stuff...

That elkrosian enlisted that rukkian to tangle with Whira's purity and make more sandstorms, I know it!  HE MUST BE STOPPED.  Made up?  Yes.  But also real.

This I totally disagree with.  Manufacturing reasons to kill folks is easy and done all the time, in the mundane world and beyond.

Finding reasons to team up and goals to accomplish however is almost never done.

Just because the vast majority of players play to chop fuckers up with bone swords™, doesn't mean that needs to be the driving goal in every interaction.

[BadSkeelz]

A lot about magick - the public documentation, the code, House Oash's use of it* - I believe dates back to an earlier High Fantasy period of Armageddon. I'd like it all to get revamped and expanded on and better integrated in to the current game world.

*House Oash itself has a lot of relics of olden days in its doc, item, clan structure and conceptualization I'm told. But that's another thread.

[nauta]

Armaddict points to one thing that gemmed PCs can do: PvP.  During my tenure as a gemmed, this was pretty much true -- go find that rogue and kill it.  It's fun.

Gemmed can also do PvE and they can also do the whole social RP thing (secret lovers, other gemmed lovers).

What gemmed can't do (maybe shouldn't be allowed to do), however, is group RP.  You can't have that one Vivaduan along on a Byn patrol or a Kuraci patrol.  You can't have the Whiran along on a group RP/adventure.  It throws the adventure off (as anyone who has done a dungeon crawl with a templar and gemmed would know) and, in my opinion, it doesn't make sense.  Even groups of gemmed going out tends to leave a weird taste in peoples mouths -- even a group of Oashi gemmed.

In tribes, however, magickers can do the group RP, with the mundanes in the tribe.  That's pretty awesome.

Maybe what Asmoth is asking for with jobs and the like is more outlets for group RP with a gemmed, and that is something I'm not sure is possible, nor is it something that the gameworld needs.

[Armaddict]

A bunch of stuff...

That elkrosian enlisted that rukkian to tangle with Whira's purity and make more sandstorms, I know it!  HE MUST BE STOPPED.  Made up?  Yes.  But also real.

This I totally disagree with.  Manufacturing reasons to kill folks is easy and done all the time, in the mundane world and beyond.

Finding reasons to team up and goals to accomplish however is almost never done.

Just because the vast majority of players play to chop fuckers up with bone swords™, doesn't mean that needs to be the driving goal in every interaction.

That's fine for you to disagree with.  I'm not talking about willy nilly assassinations all over the place, though.  I'm talking about realistic distrust in the game, and creating situations that others should naturally, out of distrust, meddle with.  There is documentation abound of mages distrusting other elements, and yet this is rarely played out.  You say finding reasons to team up is almost never done, I say that that is the natural resting state of the game right now.  People plotting actively against others is happening, yes...but not on the scale that 'leave everyone be' is happening.

This is also fine.  However, in the cases of mages in particular, where there is the long-standing general complaint of 'there's nothing for me to actually do', they are also not doing anything that could be done on a personal character level.  When the level of cooperation and trust gets so high, you making an unconscious demand for other people to generate content for you;  Years ago, there was the announcement from staff that as per player request, player run plots would become the mainstay of the game.  There was an actual sizable chunk of the playerbase that was complaining about staff run plots and not being able to have an impact in them.  Now, we are on the opposite end of the spectrum, where people are waiting for others to generate content for them, and waiting as a cooperative group for it.

None of this is meant as a complaint about it.  But it's an observation, one that I'm trying to convey that this, to a large degree, a self-inflicted problem.  It's not that the game world needs to adjust to fit mages in, it's that mages need to adjust to fit into the game world with real characters with real goals, real reasons to deceive, real reasons to passionately fight things they see happening, and real reasons to not get along with everyone.  From that point on, plots and conflicts flow naturally, as long as the benefit of the doubt isn't just given to everyone.  Stop trusting everyone.  Start coming up with things for your mage to actively investigate...even if it results in an 'oh, I was mistaken, he's not an evil dude at all.'

[Asmoth]

Armaddict points to one thing that gemmed PCs can do: PvP.  During my tenure as a gemmed, this was pretty much true -- go find that rogue and kill it.  It's fun.

Gemmed can also do PvE and they can also do the whole social RP thing (secret lovers, other gemmed lovers).

What gemmed can't do (maybe shouldn't be allowed to do), however, is group RP.  You can't have that one Vivaduan along on a Byn patrol or a Kuraci patrol.  You can't have the Whiran along on a group RP/adventure.  It throws the adventure off (as anyone who has done a dungeon crawl with a templar and gemmed would know) and, in my opinion, it doesn't make sense.  Even groups of gemmed going out tends to leave a weird taste in peoples mouths -- even a group of Oashi gemmed.

In tribes, however, magickers can do the group RP, with the mundanes in the tribe.  That's pretty awesome.

Maybe what Asmoth is asking for with jobs and the like is more outlets for group RP with a gemmed, and that is something I'm not sure is possible, nor is it something that the gameworld needs.

Oh I get the potential power of even two different gemmed out together.  I have been a part of some lopsided ass fights that way.  Six scrab attack, no biggy, two spells, all dead.

But what I'm saying is why not have that water mage to heal you on that trip and kept you watered?

Would it be weird, would it be odd, sure, but it would be DAMNED EFFECTIVE.

Hell, if you get a few Krathi's, a whiran and a water mage to group up, gemmed or not, they are killing anything and anyone in their way.

But I guess I don't understand WHY we are against PLAYER powerful groups, but not against the Mekillot that can eat six players who randomly walk into an adjacent room on accident but we don't blink an eye.

Same danger, but one is fine and the other is taboo.

And just to clarify, not every mages goal is to see how many non-mage boots they can get.

[Delirium]

Well... the recent change puts an interesting and ironic spin on all this discussion.

[Asmoth]

Well... the recent change puts an interesting and ironic spin on all this discussion.

I'm digging it, for sure.

[Asmoth]

Yeah this doesn't matter as much on a whole, because Rogue Mages will now be much more playable, due to the fact they are people first and mages last.

So I can be that First Hunter for Salarr who dabbles in wind witchery on the side.

I fucking, love this change.

[LauraMars]

man

I'm so fucking happy about no more drovians words cannot express

I was going to make a post today about how you could remove drovians from the game because they add literally zero things to gameplay except frustration and disappointment for social roles but I thought it would be too inflammatory

I have no time to post more or even log on

except yay fucking yay

[Jihelu]

No we just have to hate on psionicists...

[BadSkeelz]

man

I'm so fucking happy about no more drovians words cannot express

I was going to make a post today about how you could remove drovians from the game because they add literally zero things to gameplay except frustration and disappointment for social roles but I thought it would be too inflammatory

I have no time to post more or even log on

except yay fucking yay

Ironically, the Magicker PC I've most respected out of all of them was a Drovian.

[TheWanderer]

If they can't, then have some explanation as to how Oash alone gets to use these superpowered beings despite them being social pariahs in every other aspect of society.  

House Oash being a noble house who can employ mages with zero consequences has never made sense to me. I've ranted about this a bunch of times, but the unexplained reality that they can employ mages yet still remain in the top tier of Nakki houses makes them one of the most frustrating parts of Allanak for me.

All of this, by the way. I thought the reason would reveal itself to me as the years went on, but it's still the weirdest, most out of place writing in the game.

[LauraMars]

man

I'm so fucking happy about no more drovians words cannot express

I was going to make a post today about how you could remove drovians from the game because they add literally zero things to gameplay except frustration and disappointment for social roles but I thought it would be too inflammatory

I have no time to post more or even log on

except yay fucking yay

Ironically, the Magicker PC I've most respected out of all of them was a Drovian.

I have absolutely nothing against a well played Drovian, Psionicist, or any other class in the game. Character is greater than everything else and someone who puts roleplay first and does it well gets my full respect no matter what class they are playing.

I hate, and have always hated, the coded construction of those classes and what they are capable of doing.

[Asmoth]

man

I'm so fucking happy about no more drovians words cannot express

I was going to make a post today about how you could remove drovians from the game because they add literally zero things to gameplay except frustration and disappointment for social roles but I thought it would be too inflammatory

I have no time to post more or even log on

except yay fucking yay

Ironically, the Magicker PC I've most respected out of all of them was a Drovian.

I have absolutely nothing against a well played Drovian, Psionicist, or any other class in the game. Character is greater than everything else and someone who puts roleplay first and does it well gets my full respect no matter what class they are playing.

I hate, and have always hated, the coded construction of those classes and what they are capable of doing.

Yup I've had a few character ruined by psionicists who knew EVERYTHING.

[Erythil]

What if I want to be a mage first?