The Rise of the Metagame

[Armaddict]

Skinner's box is a perfect analogy. Like delirium said, if the twink kills you, you lose. The only way to stop that from happening, is to press the button in the Skinner box. I don't see how that so hard to understand. It's like that for every single game out there with even the slightest player versus player environment.

By that logic being killed for twinking behavior would cease the behavior.  Instead of raising tirades with imagined notions of skill-suppression and insistent notions that the game is no longer about roleplay because you can't skillmax freely by committing murder sprees in communities without reprise.

[hopeandsorrow]

Beethoven- I might of misread ya and I apologize for that.

I'm just super defensive because I have put forth a shit ton of effort, emoting every forage command in the salt flats, trying to be as IC as  I can be, afraid that my IC reasons for chasing a Scrab wasn't "IC enough".  Doesn't help there's a lot of bogey man tells of of arbitrarily laid account notes by staff.  No one wants to be considered a bad player, especially when you're just trying to explore the code a bit, gets your baring, build a PC and interact with the world in a meaningful way.

Did amount to anything? No, it just burned me out.  No one rewards you for intricate solo RP, least I never been rewarded, never shown on my account notes.  Yet if I just don't bother cause I'm tired and I'm just trying to get my fail before I go to bed, is that what makes me a 'bad bad bad player'.  Despite my current pc existence effects literally no one?  Is background Tribal Hunter.  Good enough for that? Or am I getting unfairly judged because I didn't emote or think out the 1000th time I've been poisoned by x critter? Would it matter if I did?  Does staff care if I'm role playing that out? Or do they even have the time and effort considering their animating for their clan and trying to get requests done.

The threat of punishment for metagaming looms as much as the metagaming exceptional strength warrior who spent the last months bashing Hawks with a training club.


OF course we all seem to have a different definition of metagaming going about this thread.

It feels at best, if you did everything right. No One Gives a Flying Fuck.  Yet if you're not entirely clear on your IC intent to chase a lizard with a jawbone club, then there this silent judgement of you as a player and on your account.

That feels really unfair.

[Jingo]

You can usually solve the twink killing issue just by joining clans.

The big problem as I see it is that you're going to skill faster just by running out into the sticks and stabbing rabbits. When realistically the dude with the training support of an organization should be light years ahead of the self-trained huntsman.

In the 12 years of playing this game, the above issue has never been adequately addressed.

[Beethoven]

Beethoven- I might of misread ya and I apologize for that.

I'm just super defensive because I have put forth a shit ton of effort, emoting every forage command in the salt flats, trying to be as IC as  I can be, afraid that my IC reasons for chasing a Scrab wasn't "IC enough".  Doesn't help there's a lot of bogey man tells of of arbitrarily laid account notes by staff.  No one wants to be considered a bad player, especially when you're just trying to explore the code a bit, gets your baring, build a PC and interact with the world in a meaningful way.

Did amount to anything? No, it just burned me out.  No one rewards you for intricate solo RP, least I never been rewarded, never shown on my account notes.  Yet if I just don't bother cause I'm tired and I'm just trying to get my fail before I go to bed, is that what makes me a 'bad bad bad player'.  Despite my current pc existence effects literally no one?  Is background Tribal Hunter.  Good enough for that? Or am I getting unfairly judged because I didn't emote or think out the 1000th time I've been poisoned by x critter? Would it matter if I did?  Does staff care if I'm role playing that out? Or do they even have the time and effort considering their animating for their clan and trying to get requests done.

The threat of punishment for metagaming looms as much as the metagaming exceptional strength warrior who spent the last months bashing Hawks with a training club.


OF course we all seem to have a different definition of metagaming going about this thread.

It feels at best, if you did everything right. No One Gives a Flying Fuck.  Yet if you're not entirely clear on your IC intent to chase a lizard with a jawbone club, then there this silent judgement of you as a player and on your account.

That feels really unfair.

Yeah, don't worry. I am mostly talking about people who go and do things their PC would "never do" and then try to play like it didn't happen because they did it 100% for OOC reasons.

[Delirium]

You can usually solve the twink killing issue just by joining clans.

The big problem as I see it is that you're going to skill faster just by running out into the sticks and stabbing rabbits. When realistically the dude with the training support of an organization should be light years ahead of the self-trained huntsman.

In the 12 years of playing this game, the above issue has never been adequately addressed.

The reason why it's been that way (I think) is because training in clans is almost 100% risk-free, while training out in the wilderness is not.

classic case of risk vs reward.

Is that actually a problem? I couldn't say, I can see arguments for both sides. I haven't really made up my mind.

I do think that supplementary (non combat) skills should be easier to train in clans. Obstacle courses, etc. But this is verging pretty off topic.

[Beethoven]

I find, though, that while it's true that nobody gives a flying fuck if I do things right, I generally have more fun. When I get so bored with my PC that focusing on skilling up is the only thing I can think of doing and emotes and thinks and feels become perfunctory afterthoughts, that's when I start to drift towards storage.

[Miradus]

The big problem as I see it is that you're going to skill faster just by running out into the sticks and stabbing rabbits. When realistically the dude with the training support of an organization should be light years ahead of the self-trained huntsman.
[/quote

I don't see that as a problem. Wherever there's rabbits, there's bears and wolves that you risk running into. What do you risk when you accrue dozens of hours sparring in a circle?

Risk should always equal reward.

My personal enjoyment in these games is always being the wilderness survivor who not only dwells but thrives in places that most people fear to tread. I don't even have to be a badass to do it. I don't know that any one individual is ever going to be so much of a badass that they can take down a bahamet solo with no risk (maybe some can, but I don't know). I enjoy finding those "safer spots" in the wilderness and setting up a basecamp there. I love those hidden quit/save rooms scattered throughout the world where I can feel like I have a home in the wild.

If someone shows up, I roleplay with them. Usually, however, they show up while I'm logged off and steal not only the melons out of my food chest but also steal the chest itself.

There's a handful of characters that I've seen since my first week of playing and I wonder how in the heck they're so long-lived. But then again I only ever see them when I go to town and visit the tavern. Maybe that's the secret. The game has plenty of room for them AND for me living out in the bushes.

[Armaddict]

Right, I feel it worth noting, hopeandsorrow, that I'm not addressing those grey areas.  I'm actually not as worried as this whole discussion makes me sound...I was just acknowledging that there is a noticeable shift I've seen.  I -would- prefer some measures be taken, but I'm not quitting the game over this;  There are only a chosen few that I'm actually truly 'Holy shit'ting about with their opinion on how the game should be played.

If your character wants to hunt scrab, they should hunt scrab.  I have a hard time seeing a tressy-tressed unarmored maiden Atrium Graduate who lives well and has every need taken care of having a need to hunt scrab.  That becomes weird.  I do not have a hard time believing anyone who makes a living off of combat and meat would need some tremendous motivation beyond 'I'm sitting around not making good use of my time.  I should get some hunting done.'

As Synthesis said, there is actually a lot of this issue being solved for those familiar with the issue at hand with making characters that are based a certain way, so that their mentality fits your desires for the character.  I don't play aides unless they are sekrit assassins.  And I acknowledge beforehand that said sekrit assassin will have to do some serious maneuvering to get any good.

Just as a note:  There was an amazing assassin a few years ago who was fascinating.  He knew he needed to skill up his assassin for what he wanted...so he designed him with a 'type' in mind, like a serial killer.  I was in the position where a PC wanted a job performed, and I started to work at putting them in touch with said assassin before realizing...they were that assassin's type.  It wasn't going to go well.  There are ways to have your desires -add- to the game rather than become this mindless manipulation of code that detracts from it.

[Jingo]

Beethoven- I might of misread ya and I apologize for that.

I'm just super defensive because I have put forth a shit ton of effort, emoting every forage command in the salt flats, trying to be as IC as  I can be, afraid that my IC reasons for chasing a Scrab wasn't "IC enough".  Doesn't help there's a lot of bogey man tells of of arbitrarily laid account notes by staff.  No one wants to be considered a bad player, especially when you're just trying to explore the code a bit, gets your baring, build a PC and interact with the world in a meaningful way.

Did amount to anything? No, it just burned me out.  No one rewards you for intricate solo RP, least I never been rewarded, never shown on my account notes.  Yet if I just don't bother cause I'm tired and I'm just trying to get my fail before I go to bed, is that what makes me a 'bad bad bad player'.  Despite my current pc existence effects literally no one?  Is background Tribal Hunter.  Good enough for that? Or am I getting unfairly judged because I didn't emote or think out the 1000th time I've been poisoned by x critter? Would it matter if I did?  Does staff care if I'm role playing that out? Or do they even have the time and effort considering their animating for their clan and trying to get requests done.

The threat of punishment for metagaming looms as much as the metagaming exceptional strength warrior who spent the last months bashing Hawks with a training club.


OF course we all seem to have a different definition of metagaming going about this thread.

It feels at best, if you did everything right. No One Gives a Flying Fuck.  Yet if you're not entirely clear on your IC intent to chase a lizard with a jawbone club, then there this silent judgement of you as a player and on your account.

That feels really unfair.

What you're describing is perfectly a-ok. I don't think staff or players much care if you're running around hitting things. But if that's -all- you do; I wouldn't expect much in the way of karma. Generally, staff will only ever intervene if you're being a major donkey dick. Or they might animate some npc's if you've been hunting on someone's territory.

[hopeandsorrow]

You can usually solve the twink killing issue just by joining clans.

The big problem as I see it is that you're going to skill faster just by running out into the sticks and stabbing rabbits. When realistically the dude with the training support of an organization should be light years ahead of the self-trained huntsman.

In the 12 years of playing this game, the above issue has never been adequately addressed.

Very true in my experience.  Seems more efficient to worry about proficiency before joining said clan.


Side note:

What is the accepted definition of twinkery here? Something done entirely with out respect to IC for the sake of skill gains?
What about metagaming? Because I think it will foster a better discussion we all had an agreed upon definition.

Right now, I'd consider anyone who rolled Ranger/thief for indoor sneak a metagaming action. Same for assassin/hunter.  I render anyone who purposely sought High agility creatures IC reason or not, a metagamy action.

Using a sling at the moment instead of an actual bow? Kind of meta.

Sneaking about for no other reason then to sneak about and get those fails? Meta.

Sure I don't really enjoy the nature of that, but, well I'm going to use a sling till I have a good supply of arrows/bolts.  I like ranger/thief because I feel more useful in the city as well as outdoors.  Cornering a Jozhal is a wonderful find and I might just emote throwing my weapons at it in frustration so I can draw another!

But I'm feeling that, folks don't think that's as meta as I think it is.

[Jingo]

The big problem as I see it is that you're going to skill faster just by running out into the sticks and stabbing rabbits. When realistically the dude with the training support of an organization should be light years ahead of the self-trained huntsman.

I don't see that as a problem. Wherever there's rabbits, there's bears and wolves that you risk running into. What do you risk when you accrue dozens of hours sparring in a circle?

Risk should always equal reward.

My personal enjoyment in these games is always being the wilderness survivor who not only dwells but thrives in places that most people fear to tread. I don't even have to be a badass to do it. I don't know that any one individual is ever going to be so much of a badass that they can take down a bahamet solo with no risk (maybe some can, but I don't know). I enjoy finding those "safer spots" in the wilderness and setting up a basecamp there. I love those hidden quit/save rooms scattered throughout the world where I can feel like I have a home in the wild.

If someone shows up, I roleplay with them. Usually, however, they show up while I'm logged off and steal not only the melons out of my food chest but also steal the chest itself.

There's a handful of characters that I've seen since my first week of playing and I wonder how in the heck they're so long-lived. But then again I only ever see them when I go to town and visit the tavern. Maybe that's the secret. The game has plenty of room for them AND for me living out in the bushes.

No issues with you playing a mountan man pc. The issue is that mountan man shouldn't be able to kill better than a veteran soldier. He might be able to ambush the soldier or lead him into a trap. But in man to man combat?

[fourTwenty]

Small side note. The people who sneak around everywhere in the city with no IC reason should be shot.

[Jingo]

You can usually solve the twink killing issue just by joining clans.

The big problem as I see it is that you're going to skill faster just by running out into the sticks and stabbing rabbits. When realistically the dude with the training support of an organization should be light years ahead of the self-trained huntsman.

In the 12 years of playing this game, the above issue has never been adequately addressed.

Very true in my experience.  Seems more efficient to worry about proficiency before joining said clan.

Also known as the X-D method. Which I find generally to be pretty lame.

[BadSkeelz]

I just assume all PCs are played by be metagaming play-to-win spamcrafting twinked-up code-savvy Vets who have higher days played and rolled higher stats than me.

And then I play in ways that minimize the risk of having to interact with such players. Namely, I don't go in big for competition, but try to secure allies and code advantages should I be forced into PVP. Since I only really play Zalanthan everymen whose only real goal is to survive for as long as possible while being true to the character, it tends to work out.

My feelings on the metagame are shaped by a desire for fairness and a desire for efficiency.

I'm not bothered by people wanting to know Armageddon code anymore than I'm bothered about players of a tabletop RPG wanting to read the rulebooks. Would any of us want to play a TTRPG where we're each player is given a vague and sometimes contradictory set of rules? Personally I prefer everyone have access to a common level of truth, which is why I support things like explicit skill lists being made available.

There are different levels of knowledge - Dungeon Master rules or Monster Manuals in tabletop, cf. Magick Code and deeper Arm lore - that could give a player an edge if they OOCly know it. You can discourage them from learning it, but you can't really stop them. Players who are in Armageddon for the roleplay, which is to say the vast majority of us, will choose to avoid that knowledge. If a player decides they A) need that knowledge and B) they begin to use that knowledge to gain an unfair advantage over other players, either they'll be smart enough to hide it behind roleplay and make it fun for everyone, or be such a blatant asshat that staff will catch them and take appropriate actions.

I think efficiency is really why we may be seeing "the Rise of the Metagame." The Armageddon playerbase is aging, and many (most?) of us don't have the same level of time to devote to getting Amos out of the scrub stage to moderately competent to salty badass. We have character concepts in mind, and we want to have the code knowledge to allow us to begin actually playing that concept as quickly as possible. This plays back in to fairness in that it's galling to know that a sensibly played character who participates in clan life WILL skill up slower than a spam-hunter with a timer, and consequently be at a coded disadvantage.

[Delirium]

You don't need to spam-hunt with a timer to get good. In fact the code is set up for the exact opposite.

I could be wrong but honestly, I'm reading a lot of jealousy in the whole "gosh, s/he is good, they must be a horrible twink!" concept that seems so prevalent in this thread.

A bit like the fox with the grapes analogy. Just because you don't got those grapes doesn't mean that other fox cheated. Sheesh.

This is yet another example of the playerbase making a massive mountain out of a pretty small molehill.

[Miradus]

No issues with you playing a mountan man pc. The issue is that mountan man shouldn't be able to kill better than a veteran soldier. He might be able to ambush the soldier or lead him into a trap. But in man to man combat?

Why not?

Plenty of historical accounts of just that happening.

Ultimately though, in reality as well as in the game, fortune favors the prepared. Someone comfortable in the environment they're in is almost always going to do better.

Isn't there a skill grid though where fighting a gortok works different invisible skills than fighting a humanoid? I think I remember thinking that it's a thing.

It should be pointed out that this thread started out as an anti-twinking thread and in the five pages thus far I've learned a hundred new ways to twink that I would never have thought of.

Some of it just seems plain boring though. Killing a sand koala for its pelt and fur will get me to where I want to be just the same as beating on a slippery cliff climber with a wooden stick.

I think the real key to max skills is longevity.

[Delirium]

I think the real key to max skills is longevity.

Yep.

[Jingo]

I actually don't even think there is much of a burden of knowledge. It is EASY to do ranger/warrior skillageddon, you just have to not take stupid risks.

I find it boring as all fuck. Grinding on Destiny is more fun.

[Malken]

I actually don't even think there is much of a burden of knowledge. It is EASY to do ranger/warrior skillageddon, you just have to not take stupid risks.

I find it boring as all fuck. Grinding on Destiny is more fun.

I've been trying to motivate myself to play again lately, but reminding myself of all the grind-fest I'd have to sludge through once more by reading this thread is disheartening as fuck hahah

[Jingo]

No issues with you playing a mountan man pc. The issue is that mountan man shouldn't be able to kill better than a veteran soldier. He might be able to ambush the soldier or lead him into a trap. But in man to man combat?

Why not?

Plenty of historical accounts of just that happening.

Ultimately though, in reality as well as in the game, fortune favors the prepared. Someone comfortable in the environment they're in is almost always going to do better.

Isn't there a skill grid though where fighting a gortok works different invisible skills than fighting a humanoid? I think I remember thinking that it's a thing.

It should be pointed out that this thread started out as an anti-twinking thread and in the five pages thus far I've learned a hundred new ways to twink that I would never have thought of.

Some of it just seems plain boring though. Killing a sand koala for its pelt and fur will get me to where I want to be just the same as beating on a slippery cliff climber with a wooden stick.

I think the real key to max skills is longevity.

I'd say it's up to you to explain how the rabbit hunter is better at fighting than the guy who spent years just fighting.

[Armaddict]

I actually don't even think there is much of a burden of knowledge. It is EASY to do ranger/warrior skillageddon, you just have to not take stupid risks.

I find it boring as all fuck. Grinding on Destiny is more fun.

I've been trying to motivate myself to play again lately, but reminding myself of all the grind-fest I'd have to sludge through once more by reading this thread is disheartening as fuck hahah

That's kind of the damage of viewing it that way, though.  I enjoy myself from point A to point B to point C as a result of viewing it the way I do; The alternative seems to be that fun is only attainable beyond point B.  And I view that solely as a symptom of mindset.

[Jingo]

I actually don't even think there is much of a burden of knowledge. It is EASY to do ranger/warrior skillageddon, you just have to not take stupid risks.

I find it boring as all fuck. Grinding on Destiny is more fun.

I've been trying to motivate myself to play again lately, but reminding myself of all the grind-fest I'd have to sludge through once more by reading this thread is disheartening as fuck hahah

That's kind of the damage of viewing it that way, though.  I enjoy myself from point A to point B to point C as a result of viewing it the way I do; The alternative seems to be that fun is only attainable beyond point B.  And I view that solely as a symptom of mindset.

That's the secret. You have to find a way to enjoy the journey. And even then I tend to avoid combat roles these days because I know how soul crushing the grind is.

[BadSkeelz]

Prioritize strength Jingo.

[Jingo]

I prioritize wisdom.

[BadSkeelz]

I prioritize wisdom.

With high strength, agility, and endurance rolls, you don't really need wisdom.

Also stop playing breeds, ffs.

This has been your Metagame for the day.