External Conflict with Meaningful Interaction

[Semper]

Since it's a separate issue from what's being discussed in another thread, I thought I'd post my thoughts on the topic here. There's a fine balance between just making the game more difficult, and providing more meaningful conflict for players both new and old.

Generally speaking, there's two kinds of external conflict for a PC: those with and those without interaction. External conflict without interaction is the kind of dangers your PC faces from the environment or NPCs (falling into a ditch, running into a Mekillot). What I see as a concern is the lack of external conflict with interaction, at a level where all players can access.

Within the city-states, I propose that the staff cut down the amount of external threats without interaction, and promote the other kind of interaction which drives real conflict between characters. Each of the following suggestions either decreases non-interactive conflict, or promotes the other. This can be done in a number of ways:

1) Make cheap food/water more accessible to the common public while also bringing down the cost of cheap equipment (tattered clothes, broken weapons, the things you get from the new-character shop).
2) Also make generating low income more accessible for a player living in the city. I think some of this has been done with the implementation of coded jobs. Bring down the reward for bringing in salt to be about equal to the amount of work/reward it takes for obsidian mining and instead transfer the coins into selling the cleaning keg as part of his job. That is a commodity which is in demand for other players and can drive up meaningful interaction.) I don't know if this is possible already, but allow players to turn in dead rats to the butcher for coins also.

What this will do is allow a new/old player who isn't clanned to continue living at the bottom of the social ladder. Bringing down the price of food in taverns will also bring characters together more often and promote interaction as characters are able to get drunk or share a meal together more readily.

These next few suggestions are a pretty big change, but I think it's well worth considering.
3) Make all NPC shops allowed to sell to PCs, but they will no longer buy back items. Shift that kind of income into thrift shops and black markets which have a certain max of each item that they will take, and they will retain those items through every reboot. In order to get items exchanged and rotated, players must trade/barter with other items of similar value. Set up one of these trade shops next to a tavern, so a player can wait next to it for other players to come by to trade (and ideally get a better deal than what the shop offers). Set up different barter shops willing to take on different things, so that you don't get one shop with like 10 pages of items.
3.1) Rotate the inventory of the GMH shops on an automated script (like how Kadius shops do). This will bring more variety into the barter shops, but not at too quick of a rate. Make it so that PCs have to rely less on a PC merchant, but still require them to go make an order if they want something special. The most important thing this will do is free up more time for GMH merchants to play how they want, rather than slaving away in a back corner for other players.

4) Drop city-wide crim code in the streets, and instead position NPC guards at major "safe" zones in the city. They may still do patrols between each "safe" zone. Thus, only if a PC does a crime near an NPC guard will they be incriminated. Make NPC's react to PCs similar to those in the 'rinth in that they will default to attacking (defending their life) if they are threatened. If you fail a steal attempt on them, or begin attacking an NPC, it should trigger the code that shop-owners have: the NPC will flee and disappear completely for a while.

5) Lifesworn House Guards are crim-code immune. They cannot trigger the crim-code by being aggressive, but neither would they be protected by NPCs. (This would create a situation similar to Capulet vs. Montague.) It would be assumed then that being a House guard entails that you can protect yourself against threats, and you are allowed to react according to each threat. "Assisting" a House guard should not let you become crim-coded. If a House guard decides to get involved in a crime that is occurring or other aggressive acts which are outside their duty as a guard, they are free to do so, but will likely have to answer to their Noble (if the Noble is not present) and to the PC Authorities (AoD/Templarate).

In this way, you drive down non-interactive conflict (PC's should not be targetting or interacting with NPCs as much), and will drive up interactive conflict (PCs should barter with PCs, and rely on PCs for their safety and well-being against other PCs).

This is a lot all together, so if you'd like to reply, feel free to break down each point and post about that separately.

[Semper]

Speaking about point 5), I think this is great if we are wanting to bring the Tor Military Academy back. House Guards would then have a place of prestige to be trained at before they become lifesworn. The Tor Academy would have a real impact and a need in the game which it currently does (did) not have. House Tor also obtains a leverage into politics which it did not previously have, but probably should have had.

House Borsail can actually enslave PCs again (with the result of knowing that the character is force-stored). If they deem an unaffiliated commoner a problem, or have any other reason to enslave a PC, Wyverns can now go about actually taking these PCs down even within the city, making the city a "Dangerous Place" if you don't have the proper connections. If you are the unfortunate PC labeled in this way, your best bet might be to run into the Labyrinth, with its own dangers, or flee the gates and risk it in the wilds. This is a great responsibility for the player of a Wyvern however, but I think it shouldn't have it's ups and downs, especially considering House Borsail -is- the premier House. It should be reflected in their actual power IG.

[added] What the Noble Houses then become are places of haven for commoners. If they flock to the most powerful, or the most understanding Noble House, they can be assured of their protection and have their interests supported. Noble Houses then have the power that they really should have IG.

[added] House Oash becomes a haven for city mages, who have no protection from PCs with House affiliation unless they are under the wing of House Oash. The House Oash Guard (forget their names) have a real reason for existence again, even if it might be for the protection of mages in some circumstances. This gives this Top Tier Noble house the power that it probably should have IG, and the healthy fear of the PC population knowing that there are a bunch of mages in this Houses employment.

[Riev]

One major issue I have is with 3.

Shops are a decent way for people to make some "easy" coin, but think of it this way. In my experience, there are only 3-4 crafting skills that produce items worth much of anything. Much of what makes being class_merchant fun is finding out "Oh, I can get that hide for half off, tan it, make some boots, and sell it for twice the original cost!" .... all while making a profit of about 40 coins (if, and only if, the shop isn't already stacked full of four).

Its a bit of a struggle, because once you find those few items that sell for ANY sort of a profit... you make about two small and then can't make anymore. While I like the idea of selling to players, most players don't want "leather shoes" or an entire set of izdari pieces. I would prefer something more of a central "Here is where crafters and traders ACTUALLY gather, so sell to them for better coin" area, but this all runs back into the "Well coin is generally not useful to many people after a certain point, so they don't care if they make an extra small off their hunt".

And don't tell me that doesn't happen. =(

[Tetra]

Since it's a separate issue from what's being discussed in another thread, I thought I'd post my thoughts on the topic here. There's a fine balance between just making the game more difficult, and providing more meaningful conflict for players both new and old.


Generally speaking, there's two kinds of external conflict for a PC: those with and those without interaction. External conflict without interaction is the kind of dangers your PC faces from the environment or NPCs (falling into a ditch, running into a Mekillot). What I see as a concern is the lack of external conflict with interaction, at a level where all players can access.

Within the city-states, I propose that the staff cut down the amount of external threats without interaction, and promote the other kind of interaction which drives real conflict between characters. Each of the following suggestions either decreases non-interactive conflict, or promotes the other. This can be done in a number of ways:

Agreed.

1) Make cheap food/water more accessible to the common public while also bringing down the cost of cheap equipment (tattered clothes, broken weapons, the things you get from the new-character shop).

No.  These resources are very accessible already.  Join a clan and you get it all for free.  Doing this would lower incentive to get into those clans, thus minimizing interaction in those circles even more.

2) Also make generating low income more accessible for a player living in the city. I think some of this has been done with the implementation of coded jobs. Bring down the reward for bringing in salt to be about equal to the amount of work/reward it takes for obsidian mining and instead transfer the coins into selling the cleaning keg as part of his job. That is a commodity which is in demand for other players and can drive up meaningful interaction.) I don't know if this is possible already, but allow players to turn in dead rats to the butcher for coins also.

Good idea.

3) Make all NPC shops allowed to sell to PCs, but they will no longer buy back items. Shift that kind of income into thrift shops and black markets which have a certain max of each item that they will take, and they will retain those items through every reboot. In order to get items exchanged and rotated, players must trade/barter with other items of similar value. Set up one of these trade shops next to a tavern, so a player can wait next to it for other players to come by to trade (and ideally get a better deal than what the shop offers). Set up different barter shops willing to take on different things, so that you don't get one shop with like 10 pages of items.
3.1) Rotate the inventory of the GMH shops on an automated script (like how Kadius shops do). This will bring more variety into the barter shops, but not at too quick of a rate. Make it so that PCs have to rely less on a PC merchant, but still require them to go make an order if they want something special. The most important thing this will do is free up more time for GMH merchants to play how they want, rather than slaving away in a back corner for other players.

This is just bad.  Nooo.

4) Drop city-wide crim code in the streets, and instead position NPC guards at major "safe" zones in the city. They may still do patrols between each "safe" zone. Thus, only if a PC does a crime near an NPC guard will they be incriminated. Make NPC's react to PCs similar to those in the 'rinth in that they will default to attacking (defending their life) if they are threatened. If you fail a steal attempt on them, or begin attacking an NPC, it should trigger the code that shop-owners have: the NPC will flee and disappear completely for a while.

Isn't that what they already do?

5) Lifesworn House Guards are crim-code immune. They cannot trigger the crim-code by being aggressive, but neither would they be protected by NPCs. (This would create a situation similar to Capulet vs. Montague.) It would be assumed then that being a House guard entails that you can protect yourself against threats, and you are allowed to react according to each threat. "Assisting" a House guard should not let you become crim-coded. If a House guard decides to get involved in a crime that is occurring or other aggressive acts which are outside their duty as a guard, they are free to do so, but will likely have to answer to their Noble (if the Noble is not present) and to the PC Authorities (AoD/Templarate).

I can only see this working for certain Houses.  Tor, for example, or Kassigarh.

[Semper]

Its a bit of a struggle, because once you find those few items that sell for ANY sort of a profit... you make about two small and then can't make anymore. While I like the idea of selling to players, most players don't want "leather shoes" or an entire set of izdari pieces. I would prefer something more of a central "Here is where crafters and traders ACTUALLY gather, so sell to them for better coin" area, but this all runs back into the "Well coin is generally not useful to many people after a certain point, so they don't care if they make an extra small off their hunt".

All of this takes a lot of coding so I understand it would be low priority, but what if a npc will buy a certain amount of items up to a max (let's say 5), and from that point on any items you continue to sell to it would be the minimum price (maybe enough to recoup the cost of materials). If the NPC is holding any number of the item from 0-5, it reflects the demand by buying at a percentage of the full cost. Every so often, the merchant might sell off an item that's maxed out to the virtual world. In this way an independent merchant/trader can still get the minimum from whatever they make as long as they have the resources, but if they are only dealing in the most common, least demand items, then they won't make much.

Hunters can sell common raw materials that they get to a raw materials shop for a pittance of the actual cost (assuming the NPC has the max amount), and merchants buy it from there also at the least cost. When they fashion the item into something else, the minimum price offered for that item should cover at least the cost to buy the raw material, but unless there's a demand they won't get much profit, if at all.

I think where merchants could really make their profit from is if they go from one place that buys at the minimum price of 30, to another place that has less of that raw material available, so might buy at the minimum price of 40. If the merchant doesn't have the max of the item, then the merchant could make even more of a profit from their trip.

What would separate a GMH merchant from an independent one would be the house-specific crafts that would not be possible to craft without being a coded member. Also, if GMH shops did not buy back from PCs, and instead rotated their wares now and then, then there would still be a demand for PCs to seek them out for special items.

Overall though, it's a lot of coded work to do probably. Still, I think there's value in trying to fix the currently broken economic system of the game some day.

[Patuk]

Instead of a five items at a good price and then pittance kind of ruling, I'd prefer it if there were some kind of modified Red Storm tailor thing, with the caveat that the profits from such proceedings should be lower, and that it shouldn't reset each day. Really, the problem of 'NPC X will buy five daggers and then you're out of luck' is that it shifts the profit towards whichever dude arrives first after a reboot ridiculously quickly. Adding a sort of personal profit limit would remedy that.

That said, the economy needs more shifting than that. I'd like to see cheap food, ale, and grey water made more available, to ensure a steak isn't as expensive as a brand new sword is. Moreover, the money limit NPC merchants have is really infuriating, and I think both cities could do with added shopkeepers in the first place. I saw someone on the gdb suggest the idea of making the bazaar an actual bazaar; what you'd do is create a ton of randomised rotating tents, stalls, stands and mats, and so make browsing around looking for interesting wares an activity that's actually useful. Being a merchant could actually be a thing!

As for more 'meaningful' conflict in general, well..

.. I just think too few clans really need things.

Suppose Kadius discovers that if you pickle mantis eggs in vinegar for a week and subsequently salt them, they become the food of the gods. Some person mastercrafts all the right things. Tasting and eating this brand new dish gives a twenty line echo gives off echoes of how really hugely tasty it is and nobles start making a point out of eating pickled mantis eggs in front of their rivals just to show off.

This might be cool, but it would require for there to be such a recipe, for the right items to actually be findable, and for there to be an actual demand.

And while that is all possible, adding in new items as a player spans literal months, some sponsored role junior merchant generally isn't told 'bro mantis eggs are the shit,' there is no grand craftables list the way some tribes have those just fine, I don't think foraging for food in the mantis valley will let you dig up mantis eggs, and because these things don't have a reputation any noble is likely to say 'meh' at the thought of one, if they are even rich enough to actually blow coded money on luxury food.

But hey, let's give noble Houses things they actually need, too. House Dasari knows all kinds of botanical secrets, but it's kind of hard to actually use that beyond 'emote out experiments and send in reports to staff to show what you're up to.' Instead, staff could tell Dasari, hey guys, your Senior Noble Meiralax Dasari discovered that if you mix siltfruit pulp into crushed dwarfflower petals and let the mixture crystalise with marilla sap, the resulting candy speeds up a person's metabolism and causes his blood to clot faster. Codedly, these things boost hp regen noticeably for an IC day or so.

No more action through reports and 'yay I'm plowing a cotton field to be!' Dasari will need to pay actual people to travel across the entire known for some fruit and I guarantee you if this were implemented people would love that shit because it's (somewhat) achievable and actually gives rangers something to do inbetween shooting carru and stockpiling poison.

Give people a clear view of what they can do for their organisations beyond hunting random shit, make sure clans and important people will actually need things they will also expend, and I guarantee you that the gameworld is going to be a lot less stale.

[Tetra]

To expand more on 2)

You would need to create more jobs, at least one or two more, before significantly nerfing salting.  The keg is useful, but you can't bank entirely on people buying or wanting one constantly.

[Barzalene]

I'm not scolding you all. I'm really not. But I think we've got to be able to make stuff happen that doesn't require recoding  or wide sweeping chances of the mud. That's not to say that things shouldn't reflect change with code, but the more code something requires the less likely that it is to happen. And then what?

I like the ideas that have come up a lot, but I think if we're really plotting change we should plot change that is readily achievable.

Hope I'm not just being a big downer.

[Dresan]

salting is fine, just fancy higher end stuff need to become more expensive, spice made more attractive to use and increased in price to match

Basically the game needs more expensive money sinks. Low stats? no problem for just 1200 sid a few snorts of truly refined spice will make you as strong as a dwarf for a day and a half. Both convenient and risk free.


After that the only thing that needs to change is all non foraged water sources need to become grey water, including those few open sources of water out of city. Yes even militia should be drinking grey water. Clean water should be left for sergeants and above, nobles and templar. Only the creme of the crop should be drinking clean water. Clean water should become a nice commodity for those with the skill to find it.

[Patuk]

Basically the game needs more expensive money sinks.

yes

mantis eggs 2015

[Semper]

   If you don't want to read all the text and want to skip to my conclusion, just go to the bottom of the page.

  There should be a certain risk/reward factor which is necessary for any kind of meaningful game. When you get to the point where the wealth that you get IG seems useless, your character has probably reached all the reward that is possible to be bought (intimidating gear, the equipment that gives coded advantages, all food/water you'll ever need, etc), and the risk that should come with having such large wealth in an environment with supposedly limited resources isn't palpable because the character feels no threat for having everything they desire.

  It makes sense that if you live in a world with limited commodities, the more wealth and power you obtain, the more risk you should have of losing everything. That just isn't the case, and what becomes the driving factor for some players becomes the risk/reward obtained from increasing your skills. In order to reach the upper limits of certain abilities, you must put your character in danger and accomplish successes against coded threats which are suitable for your character's experience. For mages, they don't have even that since they can sit in a saferoom and practice in complete safety until a certain point, and the only risk is going out looking for artifacts.

  Another possible risk/reward scenario is being able to change the game world in some meaningful way. The idea that "my character helped build/destroy this part of the game world" becomes the standard to judge if you were successful and powerful because there is a tangible reward for all the effort you put into your plot, and the risk is that you fail to achieve the outcome. However, what this turns into sometimes is "Noble X wants to build/discover this special feature for their House" or "GMH Crafter wants to make this special master craft item", and the plots all center around these low-impact plots which take out necessary time for staffers to code and plan for.

  The greatest impediment to these kinds of quests is time (a lot of it being staff time). The longer your Noble lives, the more likely they'll achieve what they wanted, simply because the character lived long enough (and achieved enough) for staff to consider adding the feature.

       The only factor that wealth plays in these roles is paying off other characters to help in your plot, and often times, for characters who have reached a certain coded mastery, wealth is no longer a determining factor of why they're even participating. Other than "my loyalty for my character belongs to #", or that they just want to participate in some kind of plot, there is no tangible reason for their character to risk their life in order to obtain more wealth.

I like the ideas that have come up a lot, but I think if we're really plotting change we should plot change that is readily achievable.

Barzalene, you bring up a great point, but as much as coded changes will take time to implement, I think that time spent is well worth it if you can fix the underlying issue. When PCs are busy working within the challenges the coded game world provides, this should theoretically free up more time for staff to immerse into telling a story.

My conclusion is that without a meaningful relationship between risk and reward that come with increased power and wealth, the plots that players run and the staff time that is consumed for these plots are poor attempts to keep PCs busy. It's because I as a player see this kind of issue that I keep trying to push for coded changes on a structural level. If you can create conflict without requiring staff to build a new item every time a plot is completed, then not only will PCs have more things to do (and worry about), but staff will be free to animate and react to the world with the material that is already available, or to be able to spend time driving plots that can actually change the game world on a large scale.

My point isn't to get into an argument whether or not some of the scenarios I used are actually the case, but overall, player conflict is not supported enough by the way the game is structured. I think the solution is very simple; when you drop the coded protection that exists within Allanak, my ideal situation is painted like this:

Noble Houses become the only safe haven for characters to flock to, and political power for Noble characters become real and tangible. Safe zones in the city become a limited commodity, which in turn gives a big incentive for players to be employed by a Noble House.
Individual Templars fade from the bigger picture, because the limited resources of the AoD can focus on only one of many different threats happening around the city. When a Templar becomes a limited commodity, a Noble with the backing of a Templar can see a great boost to their power.

GMHs become a place of safety for hunters and merchants. Individually, they are vulnerable everywhere they go, but at least with the backing of a GMH they have some security.

The T'zai Byn is no longer an extended hunting guild (go kill the bahamet, mekillot, silt horror, [name another dangerous creature]), but they can actually continue to do contracts without ever having to leave the walls of the city.

Mages become threatened no matter where they are, and the only place of security becomes a Noble House, forced to do things for that Houses interest for their continued safety.

All of these scenarios become a source of conflict for players because resources become limited, and namely security/safety is a commodity that everyone values. This is possible with a one-time effort into coded change to back things up, and staff can sit back and drive the bigger plots happening between entire Houses, instead of having to micro-manage individual Nobles/Leaders.

[Marauder Moe]

Your ideas don't seem to account for the fact that many people have different playstyles and preferences than you do.

[Barzalene]

Your ideas don't seem to account for the fact that many people have different playstyles and preferences than you do.

I think there are niches for everyone. I think Semper's ideas will add an immediacy that  the game description promises and I believe a huge percentage of the player base would enjoy.

I've found that no matter what is going on it's possible to avoid it. I don't think this will break the game for  those who like the status quo. Just add options for those who want different or more.

[Semper]

A lot of the issues about staff not having enough time to animate, or nobles not having enough power can be able to be fixed with a one-time implementation of quality code.

Make safety a limited resources also helps the economy. If you can force independent hunters and merchants into GMH's for protection, you no longer have to worry about competition, since your GMH has the monopoly over that market. Custom ordered equipment become limited quantities, and if a player wants to get 'a silt horror shell cod-piece', and they know that the item can only be sold once a month because of demand, then whoever has that equipment will become vulnerable. This directly supports the risk and reward mentality that should be there in a limited resource game. The more powerful and rare items that you character picks up, the more threatened they become, and this becomes a reality if the amount of safe rooms available become limited. And even then, if the Noble Houses have tangible power IG (through their military branches and House guards, and through paid off templars), then even your supposedly safe spot in a tavern or compound is dangerous. Without ever having to build a new item, a staff member can just sit back and watch the conflict unfold around a previously existing master craft item.

[added:] Merchants, and merchant caravans become important also! If coded resources within Allanak are scarce, then those hunters and merchants willing to go out into the rest of the Known to bring those commodities back will actually have a place in the game.

[Semper]

Your ideas don't seem to account for the fact that many people have different playstyles and preferences than you do.

You're right, but can you explain more? Without more details, I can't really understand where you are going with this, and it doesn't challenge my opinion.

Also, I'm talking about just Allanak. I never even touched upon Tuluk, and I'm pretty sure Tuluk can have a completely different atmosphere that caters to a different kind of playing style, and still not impact how things are going on within Allanak.

[Riev]

On some level, though, they -do- account for the fact that this "desolate" world we all live in, is made much less desolate so long as you put in a couple weeks of your time.

Why should commoners be able to afford all the water they want? Shouldn't nobility+ have access to clean water, and everyone else gets grey water or other junk?

How can people who are -trying- to roleplay being poor and hated by the sands supposed to upkeep that when Joe Grebber has 20,000 coins and still says "I'm just a commoner, who can barely afford to eat?".

I don't know that making cities a general lawless zone is the answer (though I do think NPC protection could be thinned a bit). But there honestly, by and large, should be SOMETHING for the T'zai Byn to do. A group of mercenaries, without anything but spiders and mekillots to hunt on contract? Where are the bodyguard missions? When does the Byn get hired to act as a guard, come into an estate, and kill a noble's cousin who is gaining popularity? At what point, almost ever, does the Byn get to be a mercenary organization that fights wars and battles against other people? I think Semper is suggesting a wildly outlandish scenario, but at least then people would hire guards out of fear, not boredom.

[Marauder Moe]

The whole "let's turn Allanak into the 'rinth" idea seems like it would suck for aides, merchants, and people who don't like playing in the 'rinth.  

I also challenge the assumption that for conflict to be "meaningful" it must boil down to the threat of violence/death.

[Barzalene]

The whole "let's turn Allanak into the 'rinth" idea seems like it would suck for aides, merchants, and people who don't like playing in the 'rinth.  

I also challenge the assumption that for conflict to be "meaningful" it must boil down to the threat of violence/death.

What about something between what is current and what is described above?   Introduce some more  danger and conflict, stop short of  lawlessness.  I agree there needs to be a level of playability for non-combat roles. But that too should stop short of virtual invulnerability.

[Marauder Moe]

What virtual invulnerability?

PCs have been getting murdered in cities despite crimcode for decades.

[Semper]

The whole "let's turn Allanak into the 'rinth" idea seems like it would suck for aides, merchants, and people who don't like playing in the 'rinth.  

I also challenge the assumption that for conflict to be "meaningful" it must boil down to the threat of violence/death.

I came in with the assumption that NPC guards would still be doing their job, just without the global crim-code in place for Allanak. Of course there is a lot of work to be done to make sure things are not imbalanced, but that is not why I started this discussion, nor is it my place.

I'm also mainly arguing against the notion that coded change is not necessary. It -is- necessary if you want to make a meaningful impact to the game. Why not put that effort into larger changes to the game, rather than temporary fixes to keep bored players active? (an over-statement, but it makes my point.)

Aides/Merchants and social characters still have a great role in this because while they are more vulnerable now, so is everyone else, and they can actually back up their influence with the very real threat of violence/death. It makes social/political power and influence more tangible. Without ever having to lift a hand now, an aide of an influential Noble can destroy an unprotected, unaffiliated commoner by pulling a few strings within their House. Also, if the streets are more dangerous, a Noble no longer has as much reason to go wandering around the streets in the Commoner Quarter by themselves. Aides become pivotal players in the Commoners Quarter as an extension of their Nobles power where the Commoners are gathered, where as currently they are just messengers for Nobles when the Noble PC is not logged in. You see how much potential there is for aides with this?

[added:] Making the Commoners Quarter more dangerous (because Commoners are more dangerous), means Nobles would have to be more careful where they walk. I'm of the opinion that more tangible power for a Noble (due to an actual need IG for their Noble House) at the expense of being able to walk around alone in the Commoners Quarter is well worth it?

[Barzalene]

What virtual invulnerability?

PCs have been getting murdered in cities despite crimcode for decades.

Exactly. Its a good thing, yes?

[Marauder Moe]

It's a good thing that it's possible, yes.

It's also a good thing that it's not easy.

[Barzalene]

I really do hear you. But I don't think that some change has to be game breaking. Let's talk about the middle ground between sweeping change and no change at all?

[Semper]

I really do hear you. But I don't think that some change has to be game breaking. Let's talk about the middle ground between sweeping change and no change at all?

Right. I'm just saying loosen up the crim-code. The implications of doing that is a pretty big change, and I'm just pushing the extremes of what could happen in order to make a point. Finding the balance is necessary before moving on, and so I'd like more discussion about how to balance a change like this, rather than saying "Nope, that won't work." Saying that just shuts down a discussion, and I've put in a lot of thought on this.

[Marauder Moe]

The OP and followups seem to be about sweeping change, so sweeping change is what I responded to.

You're certainly free to propose more moderate ideas.