Hello, Zalanthan tech' support, how may I help you?

[Callisto]

This was going to be in ask the staff, but I think this topic is broad enough to warrent being open to everyone, so I assume this is the next best place to post it.

I've been thinking about Zalanthan medicine this last week or so and it kind of branched out into Zalanthan technology in general. Now I know there are wagons and siege equipment on Zalanthas, I know there are more mechanized gates in some larger pockets of civilization, I know there are libraries and written languages, I know there locks ranging from simple to intricate and complex, and I know there is metal working.

So the question: How is Zalanthas advancing technologically? I know that an immense portion of the known worlds population is illiterate and dense as stone, but there has to be people with an interest in science and invention. As the saying goings, necessity is the mother of all invention, and where else are there more people in need then our dying desert planet?

I'm sure there is the argument that people are so bent on survival that they'd ignore such things, but then how is it art and music evolved? Art, music, invention, all of them are creative in concept... so where are the inventors?

[EvilRoeSlade]

I'd say right now that Zalanthas is at the peak of its civilization.  It has nothing to do with survival and desperation, and everything to do with metal.

Because metal is so unbelievably rare, and the known world is so metal-poor, it's basically impossible for Zalanthas to get out of the stone age technology-wise.  Practically everything that we have today requires some form of metal or another, and without that, Zalanthas is just plain screwed up the ass.

[Jacques]

While in some cases I will agree with EvilRoeSlade, I can't do so comepletely. There are a number of advances that do NOT require metal to occur. They're just not what we normally think of as "technology". Let's take the microscope. Glass lenses, wooden body, and the proper focal length and voila! You have a microscope. Expensive? Hell yeah. But easily doable with Zalanthan materials.

Advances in biology and chemistry would, I imagine, depend a LOT more on the ability to make and shape glass than on the forging of metal. Anyone ever find anything that resembled naptha? Distilling it into fractions to get all kinds of interesting things would only take a sufficient heat source and enough of the proper tubing. Sure, copper tubing works great for distilling, but glass would do in a pinch.

However, I don't foresee much of this happening. I *DO* think it'd be a GREAT sequence of events for a Noble or Templar to use, though. Send out your underlings to gather the glass, make something of it, have an experiment go horribly wrong, have your underlings go do whatever it takes to fix it. Repeat. Who knows... you may invent PLASTIC someday. Or RUBBER. You know... that plant that if you heat it just right and spill some sulfur in it, it becomes VERY VERY hard?

So I guess while I don't see Zalanthas progressing toward building jetpacks, transporters, or even automobiles, I could very much see advances like I've discussed above. However, I'd think it would be a VERY small group that could ever do this. They'd have to be nobility or templarate, because you'd almost NEED to write down what you'd done. It would also take a LOT of money, a fair amount of space, and a lot of free time. I wouldn't expect it to happen soon. But it could happen.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I will simply list a variety of things which require metal in no manner.

Plastics and Rubbers: A wooden or stone mold, fire, a variety of natural chemicals. Wooden molds will require wax. Stone molds will not if the mold is crafted of a smooth stone such as obsidian, or glass.

Gears: Wooden will work fine. The gears will break down sooner or later, but the correct wood, one with enough flexbility to prevent undue stress, will work great. I suspect that these types of gears are already at work in some manner in portcillises.

Un-drawn transportation: Theoretically, the amount of wind available on Zalanthas would be sufficient to drive light or specially designed wheeled schooners across the deserts, especially upon the Salt Flats and other such areas. In the original Dark Sun, these devices existed.

Biological and Scientific advances: There are a number of these that require metal in no shape, although many require metal in element. I highly doubt that the elements of iron and gold and silver are not present in the world. However, since it is molecular form, it might as well be non-existant to the average person. Glass, clay, and obsidian offer great basises for said advancements.

Magical advances: Magick is a power that contains no logical boundries. Realistically, taking in account the manner in which magick is depicted as existing, anything whatsoever can be accomplished. One simply must discover more words of power, and the formulas or manners of speaking in which to utilize these combinations. Magick is both technological and biological in terms of scope. Therefore, theory dictates that magick could accomplish a great amount more than what it currently does.

[Xanous]

My view is that Zalanthias is in decline, both technologically and in society.  What technology there is was probably developed during the empire of man back before the dragon showed up and it was squirreled away all these centuries by craftsmen and various guilds or houses.  

Back during the Empire there probably was a source of metal, either through trade with groups outside what is now called the known world, or they had knowlege of, say, deep shaft mining which has been lost now.

[Gorobei]

I'd say right now that Zalanthas is at the peak of its civilization.  It has nothing to do with survival and desperation, and everything to do with metal.

Because metal is so unbelievably rare, and the known world is so metal-poor, it's basically impossible for Zalanthas to get out of the stone age technology-wise.  Practically everything that we have today requires some form of metal or another, and without that, Zalanthas is just plain screwed up the ass.

Zalanthas will never advance into the Bronze Age, or Iron Age, but that doesn't mean that Zalanthan technology is completely stagnant.
Our world advanced that way because metal is plentiful and it's an extremely useful substance.  Humans are a very adaptable species though, and if we had no metal we might have advanced into the Rubber or Plastic Age, or perhaps the Concrete Age.  After that, or before that maybe, some completely new materials would probably be invented and technology would thrive.

[JollyGreenGiant]

While Zalanthan technology may advance, metal has an amazing impact on society and technology.  Societies such as the Aztecs were culturally advanced and had existed for a very long time, but due to a lack of available metals and an abundance of obsidian (which is exactly like Zalanthas, hence the reason I picked the Aztecs) their actual technology hardly crept along at all.

[Silent Bob]

Don't anyone tell G W about the lizards here.  He would invade and drill for oil.  Them giants is weapons of mass destruction you know!

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

I think a Zalanthan inventor would be feasible, but you'd have to consider -what- they'd be inventing. Anyone looking to tinker with cogs and urine samples is going to need a lot of funding, and that funding would probably come from your local Templarate, sorceror-king, or friendly noble. They'd probably tell you what to research, considering it's their pocket you're emptying. Really, Lord Templar Hardass probably wouldn't care if you made yourself a sand-schooner or a kaleidescope, but if you built him a primitive grenade with flash powder...

[Carnage]

Well, it wouldn't surprise me if noble houses were funding experiments. At least V-ones, anyway. People trying to develop a more potent flashpowder, maybe a longer burning, whatever. Something that the house could use to advance their goals or for defense.

[Anonymous]

I've always thought playing an inventor would be really cool, but in order to play it true to the role and the setting you'd probably have to make up your own inventions.

I'd have a hard time getting away from the desire to figure out how to turn Zalanthan raw materials into something that was invented in our world.  Which wouldn't really be inventing in the truest sense of the word.

The other difficulty with that role would probably be a reliance on the staff to basically tell you the end results of your experiement in mixing raptor poo and scrab bile makes a big explosion or just a bad smell.

[Sanvean]

We've had this discussion several times among the staff, and here are some of the reasons we figure Zalanthan technology would advance at a snail's pace, or even regress at times.

1) Scarcity of resources, particularly metal.
2) The vast majority of people are struggling too hard to survive to worry about the curvature of the earth, the nature of light, etc. Science would be a hobby for a few nobles, but not many.
3) Illiteracy. The written word is important for passing knowledge along - without it, much is lost, which means you may have inventors out there re-inventing the wheel, so to speak, over and over.
4) The existence of magick - magick is easier than some science.
5) The conflation of technology and magick - given that magick is dreaded and feared, technologies that have nigh magickal results would be suspect.
6) The oppressive goverments. In both city-states, free thought is something to be discouraged by the government, not encouraged. In the south, it might get you rousted and killed by the templarate, while in the north, you might simply, quietly be disappeared.

[Sephiroto]

I play Armageddon because it is not technically advanced.  I play the game for what it is now.  I hope it stays that way.  I like the harshness, struggle, and the cudeness of many aspects in the game.  I think any advancements in technology should be extremely moderated as to not lose the atmosphere of Zalanthas.

[Stroker]

In addition, much like everything else, technological progress occurs only then, when there is a need for it. When we have a useful tool such as magick - who needs technology? I know who does- NO ONE.

[Trenidor]

I never got around to playing an inventor because I thought that it was illegal to write and do other things that require thinking.
Didn't the templarete ban those sort of things?

[Anonymous]

I never got around to playing an inventor because I thought that it was illegal to write and do other things that require thinking.
Didn't the templarete ban those sort of things?

Its illegal in Allanak to be able to read and write, yeah, but you wouldn't necessarily need to read and write to invent.

I always wanted to invent a scrab-catcher that sits on the front of your kank.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

In addition, much like everything else, technological progress occurs only then, when there is a need for it.

Then how do you explain text messaging for cell phones, or the pet rock?

[drunkendwarf]

When we have a useful tool such as magick - who needs technology? I know who does- NO ONE.

As Sanvean said, magick is dreaded and feared, and even if it IS easier than science...well, try to convince a northerner of that. They'd rather figure it out through non-vile-wicked-icky-nasty ways, thank you. I agree that it's a fine line as to what people should be coming up with, but I don't think the idea of some sort of schooner is too unrealistic at all...given enough time and wind pelting them in the face, even a dimwit is going to figure out how sails work...and they've already got the wheel...

[Anonymous]

In addition, much like everything else, technological progress occurs only then, when there is a need for it.

Then how do you explain text messaging for cell phones

Where I work I have a pager and a cell phone.  Which would I rather have, Joe Customer call and drone on for hours about something, or have him send me a quick and dirty text message over the pager asking me if the Charlotte location is ready for the hurricane?

With all the people leaving me voice messages on my work phone, my home phone and my cell phone I'm glad to have text messaging.

or the pet rock?

Please note the key phrase 'technological progress'.  The pet rock does not fit that category last time I checked.

Unless you use it as a form of text messaging by taping a note to it and hucking it at the individual for whom the message is intended.

[Cyrian20]

I would like to think that Zalanathas is advancing slowly, but at the same time it can only advance so far. The PC population is nothing compared to the npc population, all of us together wouldn't cover a corner of the commoner's quarter. So all the rich people having a good time in the Gaj or Sanc are less then 1% of the population, the rest struggle to survive each day and are generally uneducated.

Advancement comes after you have already advanced. Take a modern day engineer and tell him you need to move house from point a to b then change the way water flows in an area as well as move some pesky mountain and given a little time he will do it all, No take some caveman and tell him to move the square boulder to the bottom of the hill and it will take him a lifetime to realize that if he chips it into a rounded shape he can move it. I would think Zalanathas is the same way in the sense the population in general is stupid and blissful so they won't advance for a long time.

The occasional unique and beautiful snow-flake will appear and invent something, But it will take many of those to make any real impact on society in general....
Or I could be wrong the and the reason every soldier in Nak knows when you committed a crime is because they all have pagers hidden on them

[Socko]

It's iffy.

What I'd be greatly interested in is seeing in the faroff Zalanthan future-- some form of semi-advanced technology- but something on a scale where it's nothing we'd know of here with our metal workings.

Just what could come of bone, stone, and wood pieces? Plenty, I'd say. Nothing that could last very long, but something that would -function- nonetheless. We have a myriad of things in-game that never cease to bring me wonderment-- actual machines that weren't cast of metal.

Think about it. You have crystals that glow- perhaps their apparent energy can be used as a sort of battery? Flash powder.. small things like that might be harnessed in a minor way.

I think Zalanthas can eventually go farther- just how much farther all depends upon the people, the desire, and the sway of the technology pendulum:  You can be degrading into a lower form of technology, slowly but surely, as the people cling to old traditions and comforts to keep alive- or they can be slowly but surely developing new things.