On Getting Involved in Plots and Secrecy (Yet another thread saved from RAT)

[thewolfen3]

I know about a bit that does seem and make roleplay but really I keep noticing that so many are on about the fact that 'Things happen behind the scenes'. That's the thing, 90% of people will hardly get involved with that. I know people are trying, but, I think it kinda needs a bit of being accessible and perhaps ways we can get more information and work with, ICly of course.

[Saellyn]

Then go work for the damn nobility or the Guild or the Jaxa Pah or whoever or whatever. Get involved with those people, and things will become more open and exposed to yo.

[Fujikoma]

Then go work for the damn nobility or the Guild or the Jaxa Pah or whoever or whatever. Get involved with those people, and things will become more open and exposed to yo.

Jaxa Pah was closed last time I checked.

[Saellyn]

... That only slightly changes my statement. Everyone else is still a viable option.

[thewolfen3]

Not all those actually hire at most opportunity, depending on current employees which are IC, also, sometimes factors limit with the availability of which will be open, like race, mage, etc.

[Saellyn]

Hide it. Conceal it. Pretend you're not a mage. Wear a mask. Be discreet. Be secretive.

[thewolfen3]

Why can't we kinda simply admit that sometimes it can't be accessible for most the game. People actually try, and actually it is a bit hard.

[Saellyn]

It's not, you just have to know what to do. I'm serious, I've gotten into some shit just by being in clans without trying at all. It's not that it's hard, it's that you're just not used to doing it.

[thewolfen3]

I actually get it, it's fun, but the thing that I kinda notice, is that people have little actual impact and even then that's usually if you're clanned. I wish and actually feel like what characters do changes stuff.

[Zoan]

I don't even join clans and I get fucked with by staff-animated sorcerors a million years old. It happens because you're interesting, not because you're in clans.

Clans get involved in some high-level stuff because there's a higher chance of drama correlated to how many people you associate with.

[Patuk]

That the PC leadership of either two cities does not seem to do much grieves me, too.

That's a pretty rude and gross misunderstanding. What you may see on the surface may not translate to what is going on behind the scenes.

Does a great book tell you everything from the get go? Or does it build suspense and intrigue you to the point of biting your nails, and then drop 'the bomb'?

Give people a bit more cred, bro.

Stop being so thin-skinned, and stop assuming you've any kind of knowledge of what I know about the game's ongoings.

I know about a bit that does seem and make roleplay but really I keep noticing that so many are on about the fact that 'Things happen behind the scenes'. That's the thing, 90% of people will hardly get involved with that. I know people are trying, but, I think it kinda needs a bit of being accessible and perhaps ways we can get more information and work with, ICly of course.

Absolutely.

posts

How helpful! If interesting interaction is scarce, just start finding it! Yay!

[Saellyn]

He's not asking about that kind of interaction, he's very specifically asking about getting involved in plots that seem to be scarce or hidden. Maybe you should read a little deeper into my answers.

[Saellyn]

Here's a better reply: Instead of being passive-aggressive and suggesting I'm not being helpful enough, why don't YOU help out more? That would probably contribute better to the entire conversation.

[Patuk]

I don't like the idea of so many plots remaining hidden in the first place. This is a multiplayer game, and making things plain to see helps in that regard.

[Saellyn]

Well, then, let's just reveal all the secret machinations of nobles and templars and merchant houses so everybody can get involved in them.

Or, we can join noble houses and earn the trust of those people so that we can get involved in those plots.

[Lizzie]

It just flat out isn't that simple Saellyn.

Making light of the effort required to get involved in world-changing plots, doesn't make the effort any less herculean in-game.

For instance:

Elves can't join noble houses.

The Gemmed can't join ANY houses.

Desert elves aren't really supposed to leave the tablelands on a regular basis, enough to get involved in city stuff.

People who are already in a clan that becomes fairly inactive due to its leader not being around much lately - don't get involved in world-changing plots that their clan -would- be involved with, if their clan leader was more active.

There are actually more opportunities to MISS the interesting stuff, than there are opportunities to get involved in the interesting stuff.

Even if you are in a clan where the leader is active, and you're active, and all the PCs are working together in it, there's sometimes the clan staff that says "hm, interesting idea, but we're not going in that direction right now" and you're back to square one, trying to come up with something INTERESTING and FUN to do, that has the potential to be, or contribute to, world-changing events.

I've experienced EACH of the above, at one point or another, with different characters I've played. And I haven't played all that many characters, comparatively.

[Saellyn]

I'm not saying it's easy to do, but there are ways you can contribute without joining clans too. Look for people who -need- help from the gemmed, or the scum of society, or your random everyday hunter who doesn't want to be clanned. There are guys out there who do need help from those people, it's just up to the players to find those people.

[Patuk]

I'm not saying it's easy to do, but there are ways you can contribute without joining clans too. Look for people who -need- help from the gemmed, or the scum of society, or your random everyday hunter who doesn't want to be clanned. There are guys out there who do need help from those people, it's just up to the players to find those people.

No?

Why can't we kinda simply admit that sometimes it can't be accessible for most the game. People actually try, and actually it is a bit hard.

It's not, you just have to know what to do. I'm serious, I've gotten into some shit just by being in clans without trying at all. It's not that it's hard, it's that you're just not used to doing it.

Gee..

[Saellyn]

I'm not saying it's easy to do, but there are ways you can contribute without joining clans too. Look for people who -need- help from the gemmed, or the scum of society, or your random everyday hunter who doesn't want to be clanned. There are guys out there who do need help from those people, it's just up to the players to find those people.

No?

Why can't we kinda simply admit that sometimes it can't be accessible for most the game. People actually try, and actually it is a bit hard.

It's not, you just have to know what to do. I'm serious, I've gotten into some shit just by being in clans without trying at all. It's not that it's hard, it's that you're just not used to doing it.

Gee..

We just went over this. How about contributing instead of just leaving snarky half-assed comments?

[Patuk]

I did. Stop saying I didn't.

[MeTekillot]

The Gemmed can't join ANY houses.

Oash.

[Zoan]

Oash Master Race.

All the plots, erryday. You want crime plots? Oash is dirty up in that shit. You want magick plots? GEMMERZ. You want political schemes? Oash INVENTED political scheming.

[Nyr]

What's actually with the war? I'll be honest that most of it seems so obscure and barely touched on IC.

Since Tyn Dashra, major actions in the war include being mean to the other city's PCs in the bar and making it harder to get apartments :~))))))))

That the PC leadership of either two cities does not seem to do much grieves me, too.

The city-states are never going to be at a constant state of killing-each-other-in-massive-numbers-war every weekend.  It's not feasible for an RPI.  Things going on in-game that may seem reasonably innocuous lead to other things going on in-game which lead to others.  Sometimes they'll lead towards a larger RPT.  Sometimes they'll lead towards an HRPT-style event (hopefully better coordinated in a way that mass combat--if pursued--isn't so spam-filled).  What is it that you expect out of a war scenario?  Are you thinking World War II?  Or are you thinking North Korea vs South Korea?  The latter is far more like the present situation than the former.  Logistically, the staff of the game and the game itself can't sustain repeated highly involved action scenarios, and it never has.  There's always a season of higher activity surrounded by lower-impact events.  If there is no calm between storms (or smaller stuff between larger events) then there is no time to develop characters and flesh out the things that make plots meaningful or interesting.  Perhaps just as important:  there's no time for staff to build, plan, or flesh things out.

So.  "Since Tyn Dashra."  Do you understand what happened at Tyn Dashra?  That's a bigger question than it appears on the surface.  The answers are on the Chronology page, though they aren't spelled out explicitly.  Sometimes you have to consolidate your gains (or regroup after a loss).  Who gained anything and what are they consolidating?  Who lost, and what are they regrouping?  Did both sides get something out of this?  Did both sides lose something out of this?   

"PC leadership does not seem to do much."  PC leaders have been doing a fairly decent job.  Oh, you mean about "the war" directly, with overt action that sends twin beams of light into the sky and makes volcanoes erupt announcing what they are doing?  You want a blue robe to march...where, exactly?  Luir's Outpost?  Tuluk's gates?  Well, that's a surefire way to get wiped out.  Let's back the blue robe up with more soldiers, gemmers, and other Templars.  Okay, now we have to have the other side react just as visibly to the buildup.  Now the South is getting a Red Robe in the mix because they need to.  Also, they've got supply lines and logistics figured out, so now we're talking a pretty large skirmish involving the two city-states.

Why?  What is the purpose?  To quell a cry for "war" for a few months before the complaint arises again that "well, we're at war, but we're not at 'war' war, are we?"  Every time either city-state has devoted large resources to a war scenario against the other city-state, there was a reason for the city-states to be there and there was a larger plot point brought away from it, even the inconclusive ones.  For that matter, the majority of the chronology page doesn't even concern direct clashes between Tuluk and Allanak.  Of the ones that are there, specific war actions between the two city-states (who have never really been at peace too terribly long, if you can call it that at all):

628 (Year 12 Age 9)
The armies of the city-states of Allanak and Tuluk clash at Wyntek Harzen, east of the Red Desert. The battle is short and inconclusive. During the war, a black fortress is discovered in the sands. It is believed to be the home of Luir Dragonsthrall, last living servant of the Dragon.

In this battle, the city-states meet on the field for the first time and feel each other out.  Luir's Outpost is discovered.

888 (Year 41 Age 12)
The armies of Allanak and Tuluk clash on the scrub plains near the Shield Wall. The battle continues, inconclusively, for an entire year.

In this battle, they are in a constant state of war for nearly a year.  That's a long time.  There's another goal here that one might could guess at.

So hundreds of years go by.  And nothing.  Nothing.  Nothing.  And then...

1461 (Year 75 Age 19)
A small army of Allanaki soldiers launches a surprise attack on Luir's Outpost. After dealing a considerable amount of damage, the army sweeps northward to the Scaien Gates of Tuluk. However, they are met by an enormously larger army, and destroyed in a humiliating defeat. The first victory of either side in the ongoing Allanaki-Tuluki conflict ever, this Battle of Tuluk re-establishes the northern powers as a force to be reckoned with.

The first victory on either side, Tuluk smashes Allanak, objectively.  The goal seems to be to rout Tuluki forces; for Tuluk, the goal seems to be to defend the city-state.  Tuluk won, hands down.

1471 (Year 8 Age 20)
Terrorists with the assistance of massive amounts of flash powder destroy the Dragon Temple in the heart of Allanak. However, moments later, Allanak launches an invasion of the Xytrix-Za valley of mantises, completely annihilating what remains of the Cai-Shyzn clutch.

Not a war action directly, but definitely antagonistic.  Huh, that must have pissed off Allanak, because:

1475 (Year 12 Age 20)
A minor skirmish takes place just south of Luir's Outpost between the city-state of Allanak and the Northern Alliance that results in the first-ever Allanaki victory over its northern enemy. This takes place during complex negotiations between Kurac and Allanak, after which Kurac is allowed back in Allanak, although the ban on spice remained in place. One month later, Allanak seizes Luirs.

Allanak makes a move and continues it, finally achieving something:

1476 (Year 13 Age 20)
Allanak, after centuries of bloodshed and war, launches a successful assault on the Northlands. In a series of bloody battles, Allanaki troops conquer the region of Gol Krathu. The lone surviving Allanaki templar, Elaira Fale of the Blue, is credited with the victory. However, the invaders are unable to finish the job, as Muk Utep holes up in his pyramid and an indefinite siege begins.

Oh, so they occupied Tuluk.  Sweet action, yet...can't seem to manage to take the whole thing.  And then...

1516 (Year 53 Age 20)
After forty years of Allanaki occupation, the Sun Legions of Tuluk launch a surprise attack on the Southern forces occupying the Gol Krathu region. Composed of members of the Sun King's Legions, the Rebellion, various human tribes of unknown origins, and hordes of hideously mutated and deformed creatures, the army successfully penetrates the Scaien Walls and liberates the land inside. The Allanaki Red Robes Sathis Valika and Aquila Nenyuk are slain in a duel with Isar, who is also mortally wounded during the confrontation. In the confusion, Kul himself is also cut down as the Tuluki forces make their way towards Luirs, liberating it from Allanaki occupation as well. Here, the Allanaki Red Robe Ihsahn Kasix and his units are caught between the Tuluki army and Kuraci militia. They are summarily executed.

Muk Utep pulls a card from the deck:  tribes.  Surprise attack, routed forces, and now Tuluk is liberated.  Yay, Tuluk!

1522 (Year 59 Age 20)
Under the cloak of night, aided by a tremendous sandstorm, a small group of terrorists set off several barrels of flash powder within the Tor Academy, causing a tremendous amount of damage and chaos. Simultaneously, a Tuluki force led by the Jihaen templar Gavale Uaptal descends on the Xytrix-Za Valley and slaughters the occupying Allanaki forces.

Hey, Allanak, remember that time when we burned things with flash powder last time?  We did it again.  Also, we wiped out your other field army.  Have a nice day.

1567 (Year 27 Age 21)
Tuluki forces capture a source of copper - an extremely rare and valuable resource - deep within the Red Desert. Very soon an army is sent from Allanak, led by Templar Malenthis Jal the Red, to try and wrestle control of the mine from them, and a two-month long conflict erupts, known as the Copper War. The war ends with both sides claiming victory as the Tuluki force, led by Templars Radic Lyksae, Eunoli Winrothol and Felysia Kassigarh, withdraws from the desert after having mostly spent the vein. The Allanaki army quickly seizes control over what is left and establishes a small camp at the location.

Both sides clash, both sides claim victory, both sides had a goal, and both sides came away with something.

1627 (Year 10 Age 22)
A small army of Allanaki soldiers establish camp at Ten'Sarak. In reaction to the potential threat of an Allanaki move, the Tuluki fortress known as Ayun Iskandir sees increasingly high activity. Tensions and numbers rise on both sides as the two armies set out for Tyn Dashra. After scattered fighting on the borders and steppes, both forces meet to parlay, but neither side surrenders.
The two armies clash in a bloody battle. Suddenly, a great and powerful force was activated from somewhere in Tuluk, matched by a similar force in the Muark lands. Great beams of light spring into the air from each location. As the lights began to surge towards each other, the shadow of a dragon was sighted in the sky, swooping over Allanak, Luir's, towards Tuluk, and around the rest of the Known World before disappearing. After the beams of light connected, the land around Tyn Dashra was torn apart, great earthquakes rumbling outwards.
The volcano near Allanak is no more, with a great swath of scoria plains left in its wake. Tyn Dashra is destroyed--a volcano has erupted from within the rocky steppes. In Tuluk, Isar's Tree appears to be desiccated. Both armies flee the fiery carnage, and a group of the Muark are seen making their way to the gates at Luir's Outpost. Rumors abound that the North Road is no longer passable.
While both armies return to each of their respective city-states claiming victory, the days of sometimes uneasy peace between Allanak and Tuluk are at an end.

Both sides clash, and then...volcano.  So Allanak doesn't have this volcanic caldera perched outside of its walls anymore.  And Allanak isn't exactly a fan of Tyn Dashra.  And Allanak must have had something to do with that tree, because...

1627 (Year 10 Age 22)
Rumors emerge from Allanak that a team of spies in deep cover were successful in plotting sabotage against Tuluki forces during the lead up to the battle at Tyn Dashra, with whispers that the destruction of Isar's Tree might have been one of their prime targets.
In Tuluk, at a public celebration, High Precentor Ardith Lyksae steps down from his position to become Precentor of the Jihaen Order. A relatively unknown Lirathan by the name of Oralia Negean takes the mantle of High Precentor. Later in the proceedings, an Allanaki templar and soldier are executed publicly by the hand of the High Precentor and the Precentor of the Jihaen Order, respectively.
Over the next month, rumors of widespread disappearances spread throughout Tuluk.

Huh.  Spies.  So that was all part of the war action, too.

When the city-states clash in a major way, they clash in a major way.  They also clash in minor ways.  This game has never been about the two city-states warring with each other constantly.  The majority of things that have happened in the past 15 years have nothing to do with the two city-states directly trying to eradicate each other.  There was the one HRPT for the assault on Tuluk with a lengthy occupation, likely an RPT/HRPT for the liberation, and then nothing until last year.  Everything in between (HRPTs and major RPTs) did not involve both city-states fighting each other directly.  That's not to say they won't in the future, but it brings me back to the point:

What kind of "war" are you expecting?

[Is Friday]

The only kind of war that I want is one where my nameless soldier can become a big damned hero by the end.

[Harmless]

I wish I could be involved in the war and I am TRYING to be but it takes soooo long and I am not that skillzed and I die a lot and and.... Yeah, I really understand now. This war is mostly being fought by PCs at the top of their game and I NEVER get there.

Still a great summary post Nyr but I knew all that already.. Fuck I can never get past like 25days played though. (redacted some whining here)

[Is Friday]

While I don't necessarily agree with a mutiny of "rabble rousers", from a writer's perspective it is easy to see how so many "reader promises" were broken. It's a community game with 200+ perspectives at the player level, then you've got staff who have an omniscient perspective.

Goals for a HRPT:
1.) Plot consistency for the game world.
2.) Plot consistency for the clans involved.
3.) Plot involvement for PCs.
4.) The event not requiring tons of super sekret stuff being spoiled for the masses.
5.) Furthering the hidden plot arc for the game.

It's pretty easy to see why folks get their panties in a twist when they're focused on their bullet point. Hell, just take a look at jcarter's armageddon forum (lol) if you want an example of bitter "omg my plots didnt work out what fascists" vets.

[Nyr]

You don't need to be a massively skilled PC to be a spy.  Just devious.  Those spies were PCs.  Pretty soon here we should be able to get them to post up some logs.

[Harmless]

It might help to read a log and learn from their example. That'd be cool.

[Barsook]

It might help to read a log and learn from their example. That'd be cool.

+1

[Rahnevyn]

Once again, I question why we're having this good discussion in RAT when it's gonna get pagerolled and lost to eternity, but...

I know about a bit that does seem and make roleplay but really I keep noticing that so many are on about the fact that 'Things happen behind the scenes'. That's the thing, 90% of people will hardly get involved with that. I know people are trying, but, I think it kinda needs a bit of being accessible and perhaps ways we can get more nformation and work with, ICly of course.

Things happening in secret behind the scenes is honestly one of Armageddon's strengths. I don't expect you'll find such a tangled weave of interconnected plots and events in many other games. It's part of what makes our world consistent, too: secrets are kept when they should be, and not broadcast to an entire city. Imagine the reverse for a moment: given our documentation and world, how easy is it to involve charaters like tribals, gemmers, or elves in a plot about behind the scenes power struggles in House Borsail? And by the same token, how do you get those Borsail nobles to care about that elf tribe's turf war or the templar being overly cruel to mages? I'm not saying its impossible, of course, but the links are not direct, and the plot has to be crafted carefully so as not to seem transparent or silly.

Still, I can understand a want to hear more of what's going on. Maybe there's more we can be doing with in game rumor boards and gossipy NPCs to help with that.

[Delusion]

Once again, I question why we're having this good discussion in RAT when it's gonna get pagerolled and lost to eternity, but...

I know about a bit that does seem and make roleplay but really I keep noticing that so many are on about the fact that 'Things happen behind the scenes'. That's the thing, 90% of people will hardly get involved with that. I know people are trying, but, I think it kinda needs a bit of being accessible and perhaps ways we can get more nformation and work with, ICly of course.

Things happening in secret behind the scenes is honestly one of Armageddon's strengths. I don't expect you'll find such a tangled weave of interconnected plots and events in many other games. It's part of what makes our world consistent, too: secrets are kept when they should be, and not broadcast to an entire city. Imagine the reverse for a moment: given our documentation and world, how easy is it to involve charaters like tribals, gemmers, or elves in a plot about behind the scenes power struggles in House Borsail? And by the same token, how do you get those Borsail nobles to care about that elf tribe's turf war or the templar being overly cruel to mages? I'm not saying its impossible, of course, but the links are not direct, and the plot has to be crafted carefully so as not to seem transparent or silly.

Still, I can understand a want to hear more of what's going on. Maybe there's more we can be doing with in game rumor boards and gossipy NPCs to help with that.

You should take on some off-peak nobles, yo.

Most nobles I've seen in my time at Arm have played at peak hours almost exclusively, with seemingly very sporadic forays into off-peak. Even if it means more noble PCs than usual, having a couple with European players would be a good thing. I wouldn't even know where to begin with fixing things for the average east Asian, Australian or New Zealander - Armageddon's always had a lower player count at their 'peak' times than any other biggish RPI out there (Shadows of Isildur, then I guess Atonement, which had lots of SoI players, and Harshlands).

Also, you could always use your immyness to split this all to a new thread? 

[Patuk]

If being European were an upside, I'd probably play three simultaneous nobles by now.

[Rahnevyn]

Also, you could always use your immyness to split this all to a new thread? 

It's really annoying to keep doing that, but since you called me out, FINE.

You should take on some off-peak nobles, yo.

Most nobles I've seen in my time at Arm have played at peak hours almost exclusively, with seemingly very sporadic forays into off-peak. Even if it means more noble PCs than usual, having a couple with European players would be a good thing. I wouldn't even know where to begin with fixing things for the average east Asian, Australian or New Zealander - Armageddon's always had a lower player count at their 'peak' times than any other biggish RPI out there (Shadows of Isildur, then I guess Atonement, which had lots of SoI players, and Harshlands).

We've had off peak nobles before, and I'd be happy to take some again, if we got a good app. I don't think we'll set aside slots specifically for on-peak or off-peak nobles or anything, but we definitely don't say "Oh, this guy doesn't play during peak hours, he's out of the running."

[Fujikoma]

As far as plots are concerned, I've not really tried to get in on the whole war plot thing much, interesting as it has seemed from the outside, and curious as I might have been. I enjoy smaller plots with fewer devastating consequences. These amuse me greatly, just small, innocent little things going on, and then, TRAGEDY strikes, HEY, get your plot out of MY plot, you big jerk! Oh no! More plots in my plots, this is getting messy! Whhhhhy! I just want to be left alone! Why am I being hauled into the arena to face the Gaj!?

And so, there is plenty of excitement for me, almost more than I can handle, without setting Tuluk ablaze and wiping out the d-elf tribes. Maybe I'm alone in being pleased by smaller things involving my PC's own secrets and not the really big secrets of the game, however, considering how much crazy stuff I get wrapped up in, this does not seem to be the case. I enjoy the time I spend playing the game, I enjoy playing a PC that's just out to fulfill their needs and assist others with theirs, and trust me, plenty of trouble comes along with that to keep me highly entertained. If I were ever to want in on the big plots, I'd likely roll up some kind of sneaky-type and butt my way into them, but for now I'm just happy playing the whiny just leave me alone types, and all the terrible consequences that come with that.

And, thanks for the explanation, Nyr, not that I was seeking to get involved, but I did see the concerns of others and become curious as to what's going on and why.

As far as smaller, secretive plots involved in the war, you can find them, a few I've seen have been out in plain view, just don't expect them to drop in your lap very often. Note that this is not intended as criticism toward any player, admin, or disgruntled and jaded troll. Just, yes, I have become aware many times before of smaller player driven plots, so I know they exist. As to whether they have been or will be shut down by circumstances, or will be played out with resounding effects, well, I suppose that depends on the plot and how it's played out, I can't claim any knowledge or understanding there.

This ignorant perspective has been brought to you by NEWB, ruining things for everyone since the beginning of the internet.

[greasygemo]

Personally I just like to roll a PC whose concept is fun to me and then RP them being themselves. The minute I stop caring about plots and have just been awesome and cheerfully going about my shit, ARM is all neat and fun, and other people have lots of neat fun around me. Usually, that's when Lord Chosen McTemplar Faithful Amos the Third of High Garden shows up to hire/throttle/extort/enslave me.

...the sponsored roles just wanna to have friends/victims too. *pats Templar on head*

But like. Some of my favorite plots revolved around unimportant shit, and just made me laugh until I had to log off because I could no longer type.

That's just me tho.

Edit: Oh. Worst case. I usually just do something completely unhealthy that I ICly wouldn't know. Like.. I don't know. Playing with poisons while not ICly knowing what they are and like, emote accidentally getting poison on one of my travel cakes, because dirty hands, then going into a tavern and playing russian roulette with the cakes, eating and handing them out.

Don't try this at home kids.

[Delusion]

Also, you could always use your immyness to split this all to a new thread?  

It's really annoying to keep doing that, but since you called me out, FINE.

You should take on some off-peak nobles, yo.

Most nobles I've seen in my time at Arm have played at peak hours almost exclusively, with seemingly very sporadic forays into off-peak. Even if it means more noble PCs than usual, having a couple with European players would be a good thing. I wouldn't even know where to begin with fixing things for the average east Asian, Australian or New Zealander - Armageddon's always had a lower player count at their 'peak' times than any other biggish RPI out there (Shadows of Isildur, then I guess Atonement, which had lots of SoI players, and Harshlands).

We've had off peak nobles before, and I'd be happy to take some again, if we got a good app. I don't think we'll set aside slots specifically for on-peak or off-peak nobles or anything, but we definitely don't say "Oh, this guy doesn't play during peak hours, he's out of the running."

I think it would be good if you did look specifically for people with particular playtimes. I've seen calls in the past with a requirement of peak playtimes. As is, for a European to encounter a templar, a noble or any employee of a noble house in at least one city requires them to be online in the middle of the night. Lower-ranking members of other clans are still typically accessible at off-peak, at least, but if a person with off-peak playtimes wants to get involved with nobles and stuff, they're totally out of luck. It's possibly prone to being a self-perpetuating problem, because playing a noble, especially a southern noble, without your character being able to interact with their peers with any regularity, may be a little tricky.

[Lizzie]

...meanwhile, for those of us who DO care about these kinds of plots, which is why we're having the conversation...

I think it'd be very helpful for us, if we did see some logs of the "stuff going on behind the scenes that the majority of people never knew was happening." I'm talking about logs that do -not- require staff intervention. I'm talking about all the "be the change" stuff that some players insist is "all you have to do."

[Fujikoma]

But like. Some of my favorite plots revolved around unimportant shit, and just made me laugh until I had to log off because I could no longer type.

I've often wondered if that's the exact reasons some people FTB then log in the middle of a scene. I suppose there could be a number of reasons for that. Return business seems to exclude one possibility, at least.

[greasygemo]

But like. Some of my favorite plots revolved around unimportant shit, and just made me laugh until I had to log off because I could no longer type.

I've often wondered if that's the exact reasons some people FTB then log in the middle of a scene. I suppose there could be a number of reasons for that. Return business seems to exclude one possibility, at least.

Damn, I don't think I've ever had a scene make me laugh so hard I had to exit stage left out of total finger control loss. I would be properly impressed however.

[Dakota]

If you want to get involved in a plot or start a plot, I STRONGLY recommend: taking it to the IMM's (better yet, the person in charge of staff in  your PC's perspective area) and go over what you want to do... Also it's a very good idea to let the IMM's know what docs you're using for any reference / basis for said plot... + your interpretation of the docs (as docs, at least the older ones, can be rather vague and contain mentions of things and perspectives which are no longer applicable).

If you want to get involved in a plot, the easiest way is to join or hang around a Noble House or the Templarate. They'll come to you. But if you've put in a few hours into the game and most of it has been spent RPing with players... Odds are in some way, you've been thread through a plot and didn't even know it.

[valeria]

...meanwhile, for those of us who DO care about these kinds of plots, which is why we're having the conversation...

I think it'd be very helpful for us, if we did see some logs of the "stuff going on behind the scenes that the majority of people never knew was happening." I'm talking about logs that do -not- require staff intervention. I'm talking about all the "be the change" stuff that some players insist is "all you have to do."

As soon as logs can be posted again.  I have several of these to clean up.  But the task of log cleaning is daunting, especially when you don't know when or if you'll be able to post the log.

[slvrmoontiger]

Sometimes I'd rather not know the behind the scenes type stuff. Sometimes knowing stuff becomes stressful and a headache... You know something then you have to keep it to yourself or only tell people who are supposed to know about it... Then you need to know who those people are... It just makes things busy sometimes. Depending on what you know and what you're responsibility is.

[Clavis]

maybe I'm lucky, but I usually end up in a lot more plots, and schemes then I know what to do with. Some of the time I didn't even know I was until it was to late, and I'm racing along some mad scheme, and other times, I make friends, I make enemies, I screw up, I get caught, some others live.

what it all boils down to imo, is how many people do you know? What are they doing, just out hunting, grebbing all the time. Well most likely not going to be caught up in a plot. Sit at a bar, talk to some people, make nice, or make uglies, before bumping uglies. Eventually something is going to land in your lap, other then that buxumy f-me, or epically handsome amos.

It takes some time, other times, it's like one day played, omgaaaawd what did I get myself into. *stabs malifaxis* Stop thinking about how to earn all the sid you can, and spend it buy some drinks, smile, act grumpy, glare at a mul, make fun of a half-gaint.

you won't get involved in plots a lot if your just after sid, most of my poorest, barely scrapping by characters have been involved in some beautiful plots, and suicidal schemes.

[thewolfen3]

I'll be honest about it. I'm trying to give constructive criticism while also being askance of the recent plot. I do like the things which people have said. I don't necessarily kind of try and require specific plots, and I understand being secretive. But, sometimes it seems like Nobles kinda have all the people which they can carry, and perhaps Templars can be busy. I kind of like Nyr's timeline, but sometimes I feel to do some things we'd require staff assistance. Especially, considering the fact that stuff they used on the tree and such, seems and hardly be with the game. Was it abused, kinda? Stuff like that could, probably used right, assist. Also, I get worried about staff wishing and keep us from doing some things that might change a bit. An honest thought.

[Tuannon]

Personally, I think people try too hard to get involved in plots.

When really.. A decent plot will encompass your rank and file role anyway, you just won't know about it.

Just play a role, play it believably and let people involve you or not involve you based on the strengths or weaknesses of the role you are playing.

[Fujikoma]

A decent plot will find you whether you like it or not, whether you know it or not, based on the aspects of your character and their perceived usefulness, or such has been my experience.

But if you want into a specific plot, well, that's more difficult to arrange. Part of the fun is finding all the crazy, whacked out stuff going on that you didn't intend, much less want to find, yet get sucked completely into it.

[BleakOne]

If you are looking to get involved in secret plots, then you should probably be the right someone for secret plots. A half-elf merchant probably won't be pulled into the Templarate's plans unless it involves being used as a meatshield.

People commonly pulled into the business of their city states are those working for militant Noble Houses and the militias.

[racurtne]

In a very general sense, there are several important factors.

The first thing is longevity. If you can't live long enough, it's hard to get the plot-movers to trust you. Once you've been around and loyal long enough, you MAY in fact be trusted. Being smart helps. If you're not smart, take this piece of advice from Abe Lincoln..."Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt."

The second thing is to be clanned. The types of plots will be related to the type of clan. If you can't handle a schedule, don't join a military clan. Yes, you can try to avoid the schedule, but don't get upset OOC when you get told-off IC. Also, if you want to be trusted with plot information, you might try playing someone who is half-decent at their job.

The third thing is to be patient. Things happen at a slow pace here. Think of it like projects for work. You don't get it done right after the meeting. You're given a time-frame to complete it. Things can crawl sometimes. There's other things to do to entertain yourself in the game. Make connections, play the social game a bit. Flesh out your character a little. Figure out their characteristics. Playing your character should be a mental exercise for at least a while, and this in itself should be a fun challenge. Change your perception, change the game!

The fourth thing is to be real. As said before, have your character be a real person. This is difficult enough to accomplish that it should keep you occupied in the boring times. While there is some merit to sticking with a concept, characters should evolve over time based on what they experience. Nobody stays the same forever. This process is also fun! Exercise your brain while you're playing. Bring out the writer inside.

The last, and in my opinion the most important rule, is BEND!  When people who are in a position to kill you have reason to do so, you might want to drop the tough-guy act. Sure, your character may be a tough-guy, but if he mouths off to soldiers/Templars/Nobles he won't be one for long. If he's a beginning character, you might want to consider how your loud-mouth character survived previous encounters of this sort. I doubt disrespecting them to their face was one of these ways. Give in to torture. I don't care what you see in movies, the vast majority of people break to torture. It may take a while, but they break. Most break immediately, as in the moment they see the instruments of torture immediately. In fact, one quote I remember but can't place is "They all break". Your character is not Superman. You behind the computer may not feel the pain, but he/she does. The number of people who die from sheer stubbornness because "That's what their character would do/ how their character is" is astounding.

It's NOT out of character for your character to want to live. In fact, it's the most in-character motivation there can be. By bending, you can open your character up to further exploitation. Your character who swore never to break under torture might feel a huge amount of guilt after they find their will lacking. This ties back into continual character development and THAT is what keeps you entertained while the plots are being put into motion.

Instant gratification just really doesn't happen in this game. Invest time and effort and the game will pay out. Until then, stay alive and join a clan so you're in a good position when the action goes down.

tl;dr

Learn to live for a while first, be clanned, be patient, make a real character and entertain yourself writing them. Don't write yourself into an inescapable corner where you force your character to their untimely death. They probably want to live too. Just staying alive helps immensely in getting involved in things. Codedly powerful and well-connected characters tend to have the most things going on.

[Nyr]

I kind of like Nyr's timeline, but sometimes I feel to do some things we'd require staff assistance. Especially, considering the fact that stuff they used on the tree and such, seems and hardly be with the game. Was it abused, kinda? Stuff like that could, probably used right, assist. Also, I get worried about staff wishing and keep us from doing some things that might change a bit. An honest thought.

I am having trouble understanding the entirety of what you're saying here, but the people that were the spies were actually part of a role call last year, and they had staff support.  All of them obtained positions of their own accord that greatly assisted the plot, and when the time was right, all of them betrayed everyone they had previously worked side-by-side with.  Growing and cultivating organic spies is a more difficult process in-game but it can be done.

I wouldn't worry about wishing up.  However, if you're planning something big or "game-changing" and the first we hear about it is you wishing up to inform us, you are going about it the wrong way.

First step on getting involved in plots and secrecy:  have a non-static character.  This character needs to be more than just a notch in your belt.  It needs to have a background, a fleshed-out set of motivations.  If your character just sort of goes with the flow of things, that can work, too--but that needs to be part of the character's makeup and not a choice made out of laziness.  Your character might even be able to be a dullard to be trusted, provided they are a well-played dullard.

Second step:  develop relationships and ties with other characters.  Not all positive, not all negative.  I don't mean intimate stuff necessarily, either.  Involvement with other characters will mean that your character gets pulled into things that those other characters are doing.  If you are solely interested in playing a loner, you aren't interested in getting involved in plots and secrecy.

Third step:  patience.  It has been a month of RL time and nothing has happened?  You've only passed the basic test of whether someone interested in involving you in something--whether it be abducting you, corrupting you, bribing you, killing you, stealing from you, using you for this or that, etc.--is going to actually devote the effort to it.  While there are exceptions, the longer a character is in the game, the more likely they'll be involved in something involving a lot of other characters.

Look at it this way.  You roll up your human assassin with a skillbump to backstab.  You are so excited about it!  You go up to a noble and you say, "Hey!  Lord noble guy!  I want to work for you!"  Lord noble guy will hire you, maybe, after confirming you're a southerner, not breedy, etc.  And that'll be it, for now, because Lord noble guy probably expects you to die immediately doing something stupid until you prove otherwise.  You prove otherwise by not dying immediately and playing your character faithfully.  After you build up trust with characters, that is when they trust you back.  Spend a year or so working for a noble and they'll start to trust you as a potential candidate to do this or that.  Maybe they want you to go undercover as a spy for them in some other organization.  Their side of it:  they will pay you tremendously to do it, because it is that important to them to have a spy or a person working on the inside.  What do you get out of it, as a player?  You're now tied into two potential major things.  One side of things is everything that happens with x organization, the other is everything you're feeding to the noble.

Be corruptible.  Be willing to betray if it makes sense for your character.  Be willing to have things your character would kill and die for, and be willing to have things your character would not kill and die for.

[Lizzie]

I recommend re-reading Nyr's last post here. While I've already followed much of what he's suggested, there are even 2-word phrases in his post, that triggered ideas that I hadn't thought of previously.

Thanks Nyr.

[Nyr]

I think most of my steps were racurtne's...

Well, good post, racurtne. 

[racurtne]

I think most of my steps were racurtne's...

Well, good post, racurtne. 

Thank you. 

[Lizzie]

Well then read both those posts - then re-read them! Thanks Racurtne.

[Saellyn]

Actually, we could take Racurtne's (or Nyrs) post, move it into its own thing, and maybe sticky it in the Roleplaying thread as a guide to getting involved in plots, perhaps?

[valeria]

My step-by-step advice for a leader (sponsored or otherwise) hoping to get involved in stuff is:

(1) tell staff what your character is doing and why you're doing it
(2) do not take it as a "no" when staff tells you that your character's superior does not like the idea
(3) do what your character would do anyway
(4) accept that there will be IC consequences
(5) RP the shit out of whatever you are doing, the IC consequences, or preferably both

I also strongly recommend pursuing plots that do not absolutely require staff involvement, especially not right from the start.  For instance, building plots.  But if your character absolutely must pursue a building plot, never assume something will actually be built.  Never assume that staff will add something to the game.  Assume that you will be funding everything.  Having to hire everyone to do everything.  Having to gather all the materials.  Having to do all the schmoozing.  Then turn ways to make money/hire people/gather whatever into your plot.

[Zoan]

Every time staff told me my seniors told me no, and I did it anyway, they'd mobpossess said senior and clout me about the ear. It was awesome, and they didn't need to do it but they wanted to.

[HavokBlue]

I don't think the importance of longevity can be stressed enough. It can be frustrating when you join X Clan and it seems like nothing is going on, or your boss keeps alluding to things or running off to private meetings without telling you what's happening, but try to look at it from his perspective. You could be a spy, or an assassin, or an idiot, or maybe you're mudsexxing the aide of his rival and he's worried you'll let something important slip because he doesn't trust you yet.

Work your way into things by proving that you are useful and/or interesting!

[senseofeven]

I believe being interesting and interacting with others is a plus point for me. Play your character, all their quirks, mistakes, wrongs, goods, strengths, whatever. Make them feel alive IG and other people who can feel it will want to hang out and talk with your PC more. Living long is just one of the insurance to your leaders that you know what it takes to survive and they can start trusting you with funner stuff.

Took a while, but I'm glad I didn't play some anti-social badass who'd just grunt in their responses and act all kool.

[Is Friday]

I'd like to point out that while you should play an interesting character, be advised that if you like to rage against the machine... your only plot will probably be a shitty death.

Also: do not play misogynists.

[Old Kank]

Longevity is great and all, but... ehhhh.  What kind of longevity are we talking about?  I'll give most clans about 4-6 weeks to start getting my character involved in stuff.  If my character survives the "recruit" phase, plus a little extra, and the clan leadership is still keeping him completely in the dark?  No thanks, I'll look elsewhere.  The recruit year is plenty of time to vet a character and decide whether or not they're a spy, competent, or otherwise unworthy of being trusted.

The bottom line, for me, is that I'm a busy guy, and I don't have time to donate 15-20 hours a week for 6-12 months just in the hopes that my character might be deemed worthy of entrance into the big vault of super secrets.  I give a book about five chapters to grab my interest before I toss it in the trash.  I give movies half an hour, and tv shows one episode.  Hell, I give most video games about five minutes to decide if it's worth my time or not.  I love Arm, so I cut it some slack, but there has to be a reasonable limit.

The real kicker is this:  Most secrets and plots in Arm are a joke.  That clan leader is worried about being spied on, or assassinated?  Really?  Personally, I can only think of about five, maybe ten characters in the entire history of Arm who were actually worth spying on.  There's this big myth in Arm that knowledge is power, but that's only true for people who believe it.  Really, knowledge is only useful for characters who have the power to act on it, and that excludes about 90-95% of the characters at any given point.  I've seen people clam up, and get mysterious about the dumbest "secrets," including the outcome of arena games that were witnessed by 40+ PCs, or a clan event that was missed due to RL scheduling conflicts.  It's infuriating.

When we pretend that every little occurrence in game is a giant secret that must be guarded and covered up, all we're really doing is sapping the interest right out of the game.  There's a time and place for secrets, but it seems to me like people have gone completely overboard with it, and that ain't good.

[Delirium]

[RogueGunslinger]

Stuff...

Yes! All of these things you said. Yes.

[Is Friday]

[Kismetic]

I have an alternate theory.  Be useful.  And you will find yourself involved in stuff.  Be useful and interesting more than the sum of your combat/crafting/sneaking/hunting/grebbing/mudsexing skills.  Unless you're an indie.  Then, whatever, go mudsex somebody and hope they're loose tongued. 

[Bogre]

A lot of the points mentioned have been great.

Some simple ways to get involved in a plot: offer to spy for someone, or 'volunteer' information.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is starting your -own- plots will often tangle you up in others' machinations as well. Approach your superiors with ideas. Do things on your own.

As far as hoping your 3day ranger grebber is going to be searching for the amulet of Azarkna'svan to crack open a rift in the Vrun Driath, well, that's a little bit optimistic. To get in on the real crazy, really 'secret' stuff, you have to be -very- highly trusted by other PCs, or have been working towards such a goal yourself for a long time.

[Thunkkin]

These threads always remind me of what a mediocre/bad leader I was. I wanted to get my minions involved in stuff, but I wasn't even involved in nefarious stuff. The House was making shit, and selling the shit, and no one was actively fucking with us that I was aware of, and we were rolling in money and ... yeah. That was about all that was going on.

Sigh.

[Is Friday]

I was never really a player that enjoyed plots > character interaction. Plots are actually kind of boring to me.

[Barzalene]

I have an alternate theory.  Be useful.  And you will find yourself involved in stuff.  Be useful and interesting more than the sum of your combat/crafting/sneaking/hunting/grebbing/mudsexing skills. 

A lot of the points mentioned have been great.

Some simple ways to get involved in a plot: offer to spy for someone, or 'volunteer' information.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is starting your -own- plots will often tangle you up in others' machinations as well. Approach your superiors with ideas. Do things on your own.

These thoughts resonate.

[whitt]

I was never really a player that enjoyed plots > character interaction. Plots are actually kind of boring to me.

+1

[Barzalene]

Plots should generate interaction. If they don't they're crappy plots.

[whitt]

Plots should generate interaction. If they don't they're crappy plots.

Good point!  Even better if a player is involved in a plot, they should also generate interaction.  Otherwise see above about secrets.

[Is Friday]

I feel like whenever there's "plot this" or "plot that", it encourages the less experienced characters to sit in a room and do nothing--waiting for the plot to just "happen". If you're constantly playing a proactive character you don't really have to wait around for something interesting.

[Oleupata]

One other thing to keep in mind is that plots don't often come with special wrapping that says, "Keep it Secret, keep it Safe! Now with uber sekrit plotz inside!" Instead, being involved in a 'plot' is just like regular interaction with other people, with the exception that you are, knowingly or unknowingly, directing your energies (or having them directed) toward a particular, usually uncoded goal. That goal can be anything, and you may even know what it is without realizing you're part of a 'plot'.

Some examples might include:

• Start, run, and maintain an independent merchant company, hunters' collective, or skimmer crew.
• Convince the elves next door to move out of their apartment.
• Out that one guy as a secret magicker. (Or better yet, keep that information secret for blackmail purposes.)
• Screw over a rival noble so your employer looks good.

None of these really scream 'plot' if what you're thinking of is something 'world-shaking' or relevant to some specific aspect of current events, like the war. Yet they are, and having these sorts of goals where staff intervention is usually unecessary, but it's good to let us know what's going on so we can keep the pulse of events in case that changes, or in case it ties in somewhere you don't know about, frankly provide the lion's share of the fun in this game.

[Armaddict]

Screw over a rival noble so your employer looks good.

This one grabs my eye for a very particular reason.  I think the playerbase, as a whole, has come to a much more 'cooperative' state than things used to be.  This is from experiences over the last couple years, from external and internal viewpoints, leader and lackey roles.  I think players are much more averse to aggressive moves.

In the case of noble houses, this is important.  Outside of multiple elven clans or groups working in temporary tandem, the most intrigue ever comes through noble plots.  That is not necessarily nobles telling you 'do this for me'.  I used to tell my 'minions' that the greatest employees were the ones who acted in their employers interests on their own accord, and filtered out which ones could do it well and which ones couldn't.  The latter turned into dependable direct allies.  The former turned into very free-flowing, hands off sponsorship, of a sort.

I'd like to see this intrigue alive and well (and it may be, right now, I'm admittedly completely out of the loop of current politics).  While I feel that staff should remain in 'moving plots', that's because of the tendency their plots had to involve multiple clans, and move plots on a more massive scale (even if it was subtle movements).  But single players can make these super sekrit plots incredibly -intense-.

I can recall, in the past few years, a couple characters whom some of mine viewed as direct competition.  There were no direct conflicts, but their movements, their behavior, everything about them screamed that they were involved in things that I could never, ever prove.  They drove me making personal plots and vendettas to undercut their involvements.  It made it a -grand- time.

Plz help your nooble.

[Norcal]

I'll be honest about it. I'm trying to give constructive criticism while also being askance of the recent plot. I do like the things which people have said. I don't necessarily kind of try and require specific plots, and I understand being secretive. But, sometimes it seems like Nobles kinda have all the people which they can carry, and perhaps Templars can be busy. I kind of like Nyr's timeline, but sometimes I feel to do some things we'd require staff assistance. Especially, considering the fact that stuff they used on the tree and such, seems and hardly be with the game. Was it abused, kinda? Stuff like that could, probably used right, assist. Also, I get worried about staff wishing and keep us from doing some things that might change a bit. An honest thought.

Well, I do agree that some plots are a level or two removed from most PCs, at least in terms of the decision making and direct involvement. However they are not closed off by any means. You simply have to set objectives for your PC, and move towards them.  This takes time and effort. Longevity is necessary. That is why players who want to have the role of a Noble or a Templar have to prove that they have a track record showing that they are capable.

On the other hand, it is not only Nobles who hatch plots or Templars who run spy networks. There are many story-lines in game which you could get involved in, that will eventually get you directly involved in some of the larger plots. You could also develop your own story-line, try and plot to bring down this or that house or group, or build a network of spies. This is something great about Arm. I have had mundane non city based PCs end up in these kinds of plots even when they did not want to.  If you take time, you will eventually be in the thick of it, for better or for worse. Murder corruption and betrayal start in the mind.

[Harmless]

I think the playerbase, as a whole, has come to a much more 'cooperative' state than things used to be.  

Yeah, definitely people are cooperating much more effectively to kill me than they used to, I agree.

Jokes aside, I see where you're coming from with this comment, but less than a year ago I had a PC get framed for a murder... then executed, so depending on what you mean by aggressive action, either the act of killing an innocent to frame my PC, or the execution of my PC, or the handful of PCs my PC had killed... I mean, there was a lot of bloodshed and it was all less than a year ago.

Now as recently as a month ago I can think of four distinct aggressive actions, i.e., murders, and all were carried out with deliberate action, cooperation, and plotting/spying.

So, not sure if this is just a "where you play" or "who you play with" or "how you play" but I am not concerned that the playerbase has gotten soft. I actually feel like this playerbase is even more dangerous than ever.

Oh, did I mention the several staked heads I've been seeing lately? I mean, seriously, the game is really doing quite well.

Just to add: In the above, merchant house family members were involved. Templars were involved. Nobles were somewhat involved. I think that nobles are in an "in-between" area, between the level of freedom that merchants get by not being noble but having some power, and the absolute power and authority that templars get. Nobles don't have much more power than merchant housers but a lot more to lose. I don't blame nobles for not stirring the plots that I have experienced, though, I think that I just haven't been a part of what they are doing.