Independents: Poorer, Funner, Better.

[valeria]

If Gicks can't rent an apt outside their quarter, Nobles shouldn't have apartments outside their quarter either. Through their aides or on the lease. 

Last I knew, nobles aren't allowed to be on leases.  So I don't think this is actually a problem.

[Kronibas]

Laura, but before ShaLeah even wrote that, I myself wondered... Well, what about GMH family member and nobles?  They have their own freaking bases, is it fair that they can take up apartments, too?

IC social role considerations aside, sponsored role type characters typically use places like that for their minions.  At least, when I played a GMH family member, the only reason I rented apartments was for the use of minions.  That seems a lot better than a loner magicker taking up the space.



Still, let's say you have 4 Allanaki nobles, 2 templars, 2 GMH bosses, and maybe an industrious Byn sergeant all renting apartments to have on reserve for their henchmen or nefarious plans.  8 PCs?  Well, that's over half of the desirable real estate in Allanak, hypothetically.  It adds up.

[LauraMars]

I don't care one way or another about the issue - but denying something to a social group that ICly has ALL the rights and money in the world JUST BECAUSE mages are (hypothetically) now denied the same thing makes no logical sense.

It's an illogical place to start an argument from.

Start from the ground up instead.  Say nobles shouldn't be allowed to be on leases because they already have compounds, guards, and their own private, locking rooms.  It doesn't make much sense ICly (seriously, what piddly slumlord would deny a noble ANYTHING?), but we can make the argument that because there are far fewer apartments in the city than there are players, and new apartments don't seem to be a priority for staff right now, that for the sake of OOC fairness nobles shouldn't be allowed to rent an apartment. 

On the other hand, are there really that many nobles and GMH family members renting apartments?  Is this really a problem?  There's like three nobles in Allanak right now, and I don't think they are allowed to be on leases anyway.  As for aides and the like not being able to have apartments if their boss pays for it - come on now.  Let's be reasonable.  If lowly aides and merchants are on the rent blacklist, who the fuck won't be?

[BleakOne]

Nobles shouldn't be denied anything that a commoner can get.

[Barzalene]

I read all this and I think about my sponsored roles. It makes me feel bad that in I've played roles for almost ten IG years and have far less wealth than some indies make in a year. I do feel bad about that. What I don't feel bad about is that usually my sponsored roles are far too busy doing their job to ever get rich. My pcs are rarely bored and I hope, though who ever really knows, that the people who play around them aren't bored either. And then I feel a little better about that rich thing. It would be nice though if I could do as I do and see more sid from doing it, but there you are. Maybe if I win the lottery I'll stay home and Arm all day and not have to choose.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I like the GMH/Noble House housing idea.

I like the idea about payment for some coded jobs being in food/water.

I like the idea about magickers (gemmed) not being allowed to rent apartments that are not in their Quarter.

[X-D]

Bleh, there is at least 3 very good IC reasons for a gemmer to not rent the apartments  currently there...and even if they could not rent anywhere else they would still go mostly unrented.

[Kronibas]

Nah, Laura, there aren't that many.  And if there are, well, they aren't active.  

I wasn't trying to say ban nobles and GMH people from apartments, to be sure, heh.  Though, it is good to know nobles can't take out their own leases, but even that sounds like a really big OOC consideration, and if hell froze over and I played a noble, I'd probably resent that rule a hair.

[Jherlen]

Maybe the issue is not that independents are too rich and more that clanned characters are just poorer by comparison. What would happen if we, say, tripled clan salaries/stipends across the board? Would that go a ways toward making things feel like more equal? I think it would. Indies might still have a slight monetary advantage, but as several people have said, they also play at much higher risks. It may make being in a clan feel worth it, because you wouldn't be taking such a huge cut in terms of income potential and could probably afford a nice apartment with some coin left to spare at higher ranks in a clan. That's more how it should be, I think.

[williamson]

Maybe the issue is not that independents are too rich and more that clanned characters are just poorer by comparison. What would happen if we, say, tripled clan salaries/stipends across the board? Would that go a ways toward making things feel like more equal? I think it would. Indies might still have a slight monetary advantage, but as several people have said, they also play at much higher risks. It may make being in a clan feel worth it, because you wouldn't be taking such a huge cut in terms of income potential and could probably afford a nice apartment with some coin left to spare at higher ranks in a clan. That's more how it should be, I think.

I think that's a good idea.

[Barsook]

Maybe the issue is not that independents are too rich and more that clanned characters are just poorer by comparison. What would happen if we, say, tripled clan salaries/stipends across the board? Would that go a ways toward making things feel like more equal? I think it would. Indies might still have a slight monetary advantage, but as several people have said, they also play at much higher risks. It may make being in a clan feel worth it, because you wouldn't be taking such a huge cut in terms of income potential and could probably afford a nice apartment with some coin left to spare at higher ranks in a clan. That's more how it should be, I think.

I think that's a good idea.

[SmashedTregil]

And that's how inflation raises.

[Eyeball]

That's because most 'gikers are wealthy as fuck, Kronibas, and they are often the ones with the three-room apartments.

Honestly, I don't even know why they're allowed to rent apartments elsewhere than in 'giker town.

Yeah.  In my opinion it's ridiculous and shouldn't be allowed...they have a gem quarter, access to temples (which is like a private area of safety without even needing to join a clan), and apartments of their own.  Not having access to the apartment buildings in the main part of the city makes perfect sense.  Life should be shittier for a gemmed mage in Allanak, not better.

To me, this isn't so different than just demanding the entrance to their quarter be walled up and be done with it. Theyr'e not supposed to even be in the Gaj anymore (militia toss them out), they're not supposed to be in the apartments (here), they're not supposed to do much at even HRPTs, why are they even in the game?

Just maybe, if there's only one apartment being rented in their quarter, it's because there are so few gemmed around these days.

And it's not surprising that gemmed, with certain advantages concerning sustaining themselves, can make coin too.

Also, nobles servants with their own apartments in nobleland? Nobles not renting regular apartments? This would just segregate the player base even more.

[RogueGunslinger]

Gemmed should be restricted. Becuase ICly that makes a lot of sense. If you don't like your ultra-powerful and incredily deadly/useful magic-slinger to have some ic limitations, maybe roll a rogue.

[Delirium]

The apartments in the gemmed quarter are perfectly usable if a bit *too* rundown.

It's stupid for gemmed to have apartments outside the quarter unless for a very specific IC exception/reason of which I can only think of a few.

All that said, apartments are one of the reasons I suspect interaction can be so hard for the average city-dweller to find...it's sort of a catch-22 situation.

I like the idea of paying in food/water. Not sure about coded mechanics on that.

[Patuk]

The apartments in the gemmed quarter are perfectly usable if a bit *too* rundown.

It's stupid for gemmed to have apartments outside the quarter unless for a very specific IC exception/reason of which I can only think of a few.

All that said, apartments are one of the reasons I suspect interaction can be so hard for the average city-dweller to find...it's sort of a catch-22 situation.

I like the idea of paying in food/water. Not sure about coded mechanics on that.

idk either, but there's cleaning fluid, so some precedent is there at least.

[FreeRangeVestric]

Gemmed should be restricted. Becuase ICly that makes a lot of sense. If you don't like your ultra-powerful and incredily deadly/useful magic-slinger to have some ic limitations, maybe roll a rogue.

I think there may be one or two IC limitations to being a rogue. Like everyone and their mums wanting to kill you.

Sorry, I'll stop derailing!

[Eyeball]

Gemmed should be restricted. Becuase ICly that makes a lot of sense. If you don't like your ultra-powerful and incredily deadly/useful magic-slinger to have some ic limitations, maybe roll a rogue.

Useful but more-or-less unused. Powerful but overratedly so, vulnerable, and pounced on if they actually use their powers. Most importantly, isolated as hell and it just keeps getting worse.

Yes, my last gemmed was four characters ago and I don't intend to play any more. But I pity them and think their position in the game has been marginalized to the verge of pointlessness.

Anyhow, paying in food and water (or a form of scrip) isn't a bad idea.

[Quirk]

Wow. I'm reading this conversation, and frankly, it seems insane.

Is the economy a bit iffy? Yes, certainly, it could do with some tweaking.

Do we want people pushed toward clans? Do we want people to play in the GMHs? Have we actually thought about the consequences here?

The design of the GMHs is heavily conflict-negative and roleplay-negative. They're monopolies with largely non-overlapping strengths which are too big for PC screwups to matter, and big enough to handwave away survival concerns for the PCs in them. Clan schedules are just the cherry on top of the roleplay-denying cake.

A decade back, I posted this:
http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,7919.0.html

Now things have changed somewhat since - and, in some ways, clearly for the better. Tuluki noble RP seems pretty well designed to encourage conflict. The request/character report system has a lot more player-imm communication flowing than in the old days. That said, it's not altogether rosy. Sanvean's first response to my post started by pointing out that at least PCs outside the too-big-to-fail clans were creating new clans and doing things; that seems to have gone now, and that may be a critical problem in giving independents an end-game. Maybe warehouses balance things out a bit on the other side, I don't know. However, I still feel that independent groups have much more latitude for interesting RP - they have a wider range of allowable goals, and, critically, they get to make and break alliances on behalf of that group. I happen to think it would be better to have some the many virtual groups of Byn size or smaller made non-virtual - groups running bazaar stalls or shops, other small mercenary companies, elven tribes, etc - because it would be plausible to have them fail, to have PC input into their alliances shifting and changing, to have clan goals that the newest hire can be explicitly made aware of. But failing that, an independent group is vastly richer in roleplay opportunities, because even getting premises forms a substantial goal, and much smaller threats pose a severe survival risk. Such groups live within the same social strata that elves and half-breeds live in, and have richnesses of interaction open with these that great Houses cannot have.

I don't believe people are playing independents just for the sid, in other words. I believe people play independents because doing so provides meatier roleplay in a shorter time period, and because it preserves some measure of the danger and dirt which gets lost when everyone's swaggering about in silk. I'm all for making the game economy less abusable and making water a more precious resource, but not if it drives people into the arms of the organisations which provide free food and drink in exchange for becoming part of a bored elite - an elite that takes next to no effort to join, unless you're an elf or half-breed.

[KankWhisperer]

This thread has made me anxious in some ways to show people in my clan it's worth being there.

[Delusion]

Quirk's post bears reading, and rereading, and then reading some more, because it's very true. And even if it's not that way by design on some theoretical level, I don't think anyone can argue that players' perceptions of what is fun do, unsurprisingly, determine what is actually fun. If I play an independent, I don't do it so I can have a wealthy PC, I do so because in my experience, there's much more opportunity there to do and see cool stuff.

[X-D]

What is funny is, I play mostly clanned, but sometimes my concept means indy...does that have anything to do with money...no, not usually.

Although...of my two richest PCs (And I mean 100k+ coins) BOTH were clanned...and commoners.

Many players...I daresay most, make as much coin as the role requires. Maybe this role means my PC needs to be wealthy, maybe that one requires he keeps 300 in the bank and 100 on him...if that is the case, that is what I will do...and I think most do as well.

Still, if I make a PC that is not to be clanned...nothing you can do will make it otherwise. Simply have to wait till I make a PC that is supposed to be clanned.

[Cutthroat]

Well yeah, player preference is always going to be a large part of what players actually experience in the game.

That's why I don't agree with coded changes to the game, even though there might be a use for them, as the better alternative is to establish for ourselves, from an OOC perspective, what should be expected as an independent and what should be expected as a clanned player, and how much deviation from that is appropriate. If the game is supposed to have socially powerful or obscenely rich independents then there is no need for this conversation.

Personally I think that if PCs see independence as a more appealing option than clanned roleplay from an IC perspective that's where it begins to become a problem. Because clans are supposed to be better, and supposed to be the ideal that PCs strive toward. The fact that a prominent indie can look at a juicy position with a noble house or GMH, shrug and say "I can live a much better life remaining independent because of more money/freedom/etc" is a problem only when said indie actually does that, only because it is so jarring (clans are supposed to be the best after all). Fortunately this doesn't happen a lot.

So I think a good indie player has enough self-control not to go over those IC boundaries in ridiculous ways, and like X-D said, make as much money as they require without going into ridiculously unusable amounts.

So ultimately, we have to see what exactly is wrong with independents and their place and then do something to fix that. "Having too much money" isn't a problem in itself, because money doesn't really mean anything until it's spent. 100k in the bank is literally doing nothing except making Nenyuki mouths water and hands rubbing together as they wait for you to die. We should be focusing more on limiting ways for indies to spend money in ways that go above their social rank (which is essentially the social rank right above slaves... so we're talking food, water, basic housing and equipment) and less on limiting the money itself, because limiting money just leads to doing more activities to make up for the loss. That would also have the consequence of making indie play harsher and hopefully more fun.

"Indies generally not finding clans appealing" is a problem, but then clans should be made more appealing, rather than indies being forced to join clans, indies can be "encouraged" to join clans as a method of increasing their social status to do more interesting, clan-only plots or get items and opportunities only afforded to clan members.

[Quirk]

Personally I think that if PCs see independence as a more appealing option than clanned roleplay from an IC perspective that's where it begins to become a problem. Because clans are supposed to be better, and supposed to be the ideal that PCs strive toward. The fact that a prominent indie can look at a juicy position with a noble house or GMH, shrug and say "I can live a much better life remaining independent because of more money/freedom/etc" is a problem only when said indie actually does that, only because it is so jarring (clans are supposed to be the best after all). Fortunately this doesn't happen a lot.

This is I think something that leads to somewhat difficult situations, though, as many clans are inherently dull in the manner I spoke of above - in particular, to revisit my old topic, they fall short when it comes to clan goals or meaningful PC influence on their relationships. Players have to make dirty, low-class PCs to prevent offers coming from GMHs and noble houses, and then when an over-eager recruiter attempts to offer a job anyway, the ensuing IC situation is one that should never exist, and hence is very awkward.

These clans should in theory be exclusive, offering jobs to only the lucky: in practice, it takes effort to maintain a lower-class lifestyle.

So ultimately, we have to see what exactly is wrong with independents and their place and then do something to fix that. "Having too much money" isn't a problem in itself, because money doesn't really mean anything until it's spent. 100k in the bank is literally doing nothing except making Nenyuki mouths water and hands rubbing together as they wait for you to die. We should be focusing more on limiting ways for indies to spend money in ways that go above their social rank (which is essentially the social rank right above slaves... so we're talking food, water, basic housing and equipment) and less on limiting the money itself, because limiting money just leads to doing more activities to make up for the loss. That would also have the consequence of making indie play harsher and hopefully more fun.

I disagree. Finding more ways for indies to spend money that encourage them to band together would, IMHO, be much to the benefit of the game. Groups of indies can generate conflict like nobody's business, internal and external.

"Indies generally not finding clans appealing" is a problem, but then clans should be made more appealing, rather than indies being forced to join clans, indies can be "encouraged" to join clans as a method of increasing their social status to do more interesting, clan-only plots or get items and opportunities only afforded to clan members.

The problem lies so deep in the roots of the GMHs at this stage - though I partially exclude Kurac, positioned as it is to conflict with the city-states - that little can be done short of destroying them. Since this seems to be unthinkable, the next best thing is to starve them into a background role. Giving them more resources will not and cannot solve the structural problem of making cushy unimportant jobs in a monopoly interesting. Creating plots can disguise it for a while, here and there, but the same effort would go as far or further when applied to a smaller, more fragile, more conflict-ridden group.

[Lizzie]

Starving GMHs into a background role would be great, if everyone didn't want things that aren't available in the shops. Presently, most of the gear people *want* to buy - and can *afford* to buy - combined - are available only via special order. Some of them are exclusive to specific clans, some are exclusive to "Merchant's choice" - meaning, the merchant can only sell a limited supply of item X within a Y period of time, and he gets to pick who the lucky customers will be (if any).

It's already hard enough to find employees, if you're a GMH leader. The turn-around is ridiculous, especially in Tuluk, for sponsored leader PCs. No one wants to play one, and because they come and go so quickly or there are such long lapses between the last-stored and the new-genned, everyone ELSE gets whiny and pissy, and the newest one to show up bears the burden of his failed predecessor.

That's how it is currently. And you're suggesting we make it even MORE difficult for players to enjoy playing sponsored GMH roles, by basically telling them to not even bother trying to hire anyone because their only job now is to be a vendor, and all his potential hirelings are having fun getting rich and spending sids..as independents.

All these rich fun-enjoying independents are spending their sids on what, exactly? What are they spending sids ON, when there aren't any GMH merchants to buy from, because the players have all given up trying to play one because it's too easy to burn out when you can't find anyone willing to be an employee.