Forced Storage of PCs

[Kieandatu]

Except ...  I thought characters powerful enough to actually enact world changes were force-stored ...  for being too powerful.  That's not true?

Depends on your perspective, I suppose...

If I may, while I know this HAS happened in the past, the explanations I had heard, made sense to me at the time. The reason a Tuluki Templar PC won't be a High Templar (anymore) is mostly because staff feel the workload and "general feel" of the position of High Templar wouldn't be one that would sit in a bar all day, they would be in constant meetings or extraneous other stuff.

Or, just for example, if you have a Byn Lieutenant that has been around for years and years and years, they probably won't make it to Captain mostly because if they do, it wouldn't REALLY be appropriate for a PC to be playing with so much power over virtual units.




Is this still the case, after all these years?

[Nyr]

I've written enough about this to choke a bahamet.  I'll cover all of the talking points again.  Please review.

i heard sorcerors get force-stored once they attain the ability to level allanak...

Maybe they DO force store PCs that can level cities? In that case, a lot of Krathis are getting mad right now...

I'm not sure how this rumor persists.  It's Arm's version of death panels and birth certificates.

Anyway, there are 4 to 6 players out there that believe they were railroaded into storage because...they've been around for a while and became fairly powerful...that's not why they were stored.  You're pointing out a singular common denominator that you have seen (they were around for a while and become powerful).  I can name several other reasons people have gotten force stored over the past 3-4 years:

templar role, inactive:  stored
noble role, inactive: stored
GMH role, inactive:  stored
T-noble role, kanking commoners and not reporting it in staff reports:  stored
tribal role, going against documentation after warnings:  stored
delf role, going against documentation after warnings:  stored
templar role, red robe, somewhat inactive, discussed with player and eventually went towards storage:  stored
noble role, promoted past certain point (with their understanding in advance):  stored
GMH role, being generally douchey to staff and annoying to deal with:  stored
magicker role, not reporting to staff after warnings, PKing high-profile folks without reports:  stored

These are just roles I know about from working around or working directly with them in which the storage was ultimately decided by staff hands, not those of the player.  This doesn't include absolutely ridiculous situations.

I'd just like to say one thing regarding forced storage: When it happens, does it really dramatically improve the situation for the playerbase overall?

In all of the above cases, I can unequivocally say "yes," but in some of the cases, it matters also how it affects staff.

I listed a whole plethora of reasons people have gotten their roles force-stored.  Yes:  because of one unique situation and maybe one or two other different (but to each other, incomparable) situations over the past 20 years (or however long we've had the storage ability), there is a infinitesimal chance you will be stored without doing anything wrong (or against the expectations of the role you've taken).

Live in fear!

as for limiting what players can affect in a singular role on their own without direct staff involvement:

The higher levels you refer to would not interact regularly with anything but other higher level folks and occasionally their subordinates. Blue robes are subordinate to reds. Senior nobles are subordinate to senators.

"Control vast aspects of Allanak! Interact with no one! Become an Allanaki senator!"

If you want to do that just apply for a staff position.

A brief check over past Red Robes shows that only one was a non-staffer.  Same with Senators.

[Kieandatu]

Oh, cool. I guess this was more of an ATS question. =\

[jstorrie]

Or, just for example, if you have a Byn Lieutenant that has been around for years and years and years, they probably won't make it to Captain mostly because if they do, it wouldn't REALLY be appropriate for a PC to be playing with so much power over virtual units.

I think staff are more likely to just not promote you to Captain, in this situation.

Whenever I've heard of PCs getting 'promoted into retirement' it's always been something the staff has spoken to them about, ala... "Hey, your character might qualify for this promotion, but if we promote you that high we won't be able to offer you the in-game support you might expect for someone of this rank. Do you want to dodge the promotion, get promoted without support, or get promoted and become an NPC? Your choice."

Whenever I've heard of really high-level PCs like Red Robes and the like getting stored it's generally been due to them fading into inactivity (itself likely do the low playability of excessively high-ranked roles). Accordingly, staff doesn't promote this high often, because the lack of support tends to destroy peoples' fun.

[The Lonely Hunter]

That has always been one of the things that turned me off. The glass ceiling.

I am sure the comment will get flamed but I would love to see PCs able to occupy -any- position if earned through IC events (and proven to be a responsible player). I have played a couple of roles that are not currently available and had a blast. One of my longest lived, and most enjoyable PCs, was a slave who managed to raise to the rank of Sgt.

Middle nobles, Reds, Higher rank GMH, etc...yes, please.

[Barsook]

Middle nobles, Reds, Higher rank GMH, etc...yes, please.

I think that would be possible with a larger player and staff base.  And maybe the higher-er ups of the clans can be like imms.

[A Large Bag]

I think, as long as you want to keep playing it and actually -are- playing it, you should be allowed to rise as high as you can without being stored unless you choose to. If you stop logging in much or go inactive, I think you should be given a warning to get more active and then if you don't, be forced stored.

[Nyr]

I'm just gonna communicate in this thread entirely with quotes staff have made previously, especially since the points brought up are the same ones.  I can probably do that writ large on the GDB anyway! 

That has always been one of the things that turned me off. The glass ceiling.

The glass ceiling is the term players have given it.

I am sure the comment will get flamed but I would love to see PCs able to occupy -any- position if earned through IC events (and proven to be a responsible player).

Experience has taught us that past a certain point, there are diminishing returns in rank.  Higher ranks shouldn't be seen often.  In many cases, they affect so much that they may as well be staff members.  Due to the constraints on the PC and notedly volunteer staff, we do what we can to facilitate the needs of people without having them at those higher ranks.  We're excited to help people accomplish goals, though--just not so excited to be obligated (not feel, be--it's a definite obligation) to do things and react to things at the whim of a PC rather than to assist them.

rise to the top of their order/house/whatever, its "good on them" not, "better make you an NPC" if you want the game to be truly player driven.

That's a hypothetical you nor I could prove or disprove.  Experience has taught us that your scenario--tried several times--does not work, not for staff, nor for the representation of the gameworld.  We have more to think about than the pleasure of the players that get leadership roles--we have the gameworld and the experience in mind.  We've made the decision--and not lightly--to look at other alternatives so that PCs aren't pigeonholed into roles that limit and restrict their own RP (and so that staff aren't stuck following behind that person with a dustpan and broom, ready to pick up the pieces). 

Go.  Do.  Be.  Discussing the finer points of staff policy and how this prevents you from going, doing, and being...this is cathartic.  However, understand that you (the collective you, those of you that take issue with any staff policy in regards to this or related issues) are pointing out problems you have with the extreme cases that are usually never achieved.

One of my longest lived, and most enjoyable PCs, was a slave who managed to raise to the rank of Sgt.

Slavery policy -- It's been debated by staff and not lightly.  It may not be perfect the way it is, but it is what it is, for now.  I can understand why some people would want it, though.

Middle nobles, Reds, Higher rank GMH, etc...yes, please.

Probably wouldn't be much fun for the black robe's player either.  A black robe really wouldn't be able to do ANYTHING without live staff support, save perhaps meet with underlings (red robes).

I mean, seriously, how the heck do you envision things working with them?  Supreme Lord Walik the Black strolls into the Gaj to see what's going on?  Goes out riding with the PC militia for a larf?  Meets with Junior Merchant Jilla Kadius to buy silk toilet paper?  Stops for a game of Giant's Fist on the way back?

Hah, i get the idea, hence the prospect of a role like that, we'll take a black robe in this instance, would require different RP. Not an ass load of staff interactions, but a lot of tolerance for solo RP. High level meetings with high class people, plotting your reds to make your blue robes squabble and get shit done. Keeping four fingers around the noble throats. It wouldn't be awful. Writing, reading, research. A lot of paths to go on.

High level meetings with what high class people? What blues and reds do you mean? What noble throats? 

Yes, it would be awful. Everyone you expect to interact with in your hypothetical scenario is an npc or vnpc.

[Nyr]

I think, as long as you want to keep playing it and actually -are- playing it, you should be allowed to rise as high as you can without being stored unless you choose to. If you stop logging in much or go inactive, I think you should be given a warning to get more active and then if you don't, be forced stored.

We never said a commoner could not become a Templar.  We also have not laid out where exactly the glass ceilings are.  There are some roles that are still achievable, some are not.  The glass ceiling is the term players have given it. I prefer to think of it as plexiglass, yes there is something of a cap in place, it does have flex. If a situation arose that allowed for a promotion, and someone was in place to take it, it might bend.

It -might- bend. And what exactly would this "might bend" be determined by? I have a problem with this as it also helps to create issues between players and staff possibly ending with disgruntled players or irritable staffers.
"It bends for this guy but not for this guy, huh must be some favoritism going on."
It shouldn't "might bend" for some and not for others, it should either be attainable by -anyone- in that situation or it should not be attainable for anyone. 
There shouldn't be the chance that there will be two pcs in the same position to rise above this "plexiglass ceiling" one played by one person, another by a different person and one is allowed to break through where the other is not.

Ok... good point. Let's go back to it being inflexible then. Until such a time we say it is not.

[Patuk]

If you're going to keep this up, Nyr, a coder could spend fifteen minutes to throw the right quotes at the right thread and your very existence would be superfluous.

[Feco]

If you're going to keep this up, Nyr, a coder could spend fifteen minutes to throw the right quotes at the right thread and your very existence would be superfluous.

If his quotes were not relevant or current, and he was just avoiding conversation, I'd agree with your implied criticism.

The reality is that "forced storage and the glass ceiling" are a set of misunderstood and overblown concepts which staff have several times pointed out are misunderstood and overblown.

[Semper]

It would be nice if PCs had a bigger say in what kinds of things a house or city does. Like a sim-city kind of feeling, where leader PCs A B and C all compete for a particular resource and each of them call the shots for their house's actions. If PC A puts in more resources than B or C, then there would be a direct impact on the rewards obtained... or something like that? Maybe it would take too much staff support, but what if certain reactions were coded? Like a perpetual plot... *shrug*

[The Lonely Hunter]

Post removed because of redundancy. - TLH

[marko]

Usually, when a player reaches a 'higher level' of authority within their clan structure they slowly stop playing because they realize they can't enact change directly anymore.  Maybe I shouldn't say change but the game experience is different.  They become part of an exclusive ranking of society that doesn't interact directly with the vast majority of people and if the player wanted to continue interacting in the same way it would seem jarring and out of context with the social mores of the society... so the player would be spoken to.  So, maybe a better term is they wouldn't be able to directly interact as much with the majority of characters around them.

They become a middle manager who manages and doesn't do.  

A player who becomes a red robe can do what?  Manage the blue robes.  Well, what if there are no blue robes?  What if the two blue robe templars don't play at the same time?  The role is one that is inherently boring for most (the vast majority) of players.  Some players might enjoy it but those players are few and far between.  Plus, when reaching such positions, one really needs to fully grasp the power structure of the organization you are in and what is around it.

The biggest problem is one of scale of power.  There aren't a lot of ranks between the starting rank of a sponsored family role (since, really, that is what is being discussed here - sponsored roles moving up in the power structure of their organization or, rather, their perceived inability to do so) and the next rank up.  For example, a templar, you start as a blue and the next milestone is red robe.  For a player, it makes sense to aspire to being promoted and recognized for what they have done.

Promotion is s a natural human tendency and a great way to keep someone involved in an organization via continual promotions based on their successes.  

But, when the next level up is so different from the base level and the entire structure of what one does is different it doesn't really make sense to promote people to that position.  Basically, it's promoting people beyond their level of competency.  

I think the best solution is to introduce granularity into the base rank of each sponsored role.  Introduce levels within the rank.  A blue robe may start out as blue robe 1 and move on up through the internal hierarchy to blue robe 9.  A blue robe 9 has greater influence and the power to bully blue robes beneath them but they are still not a red robe.  This could be done for nobles, merchant family members, and other political roles.

Players really just want a sense of forward achievement.  It isn't so much that they -want- to be a paper pushing administrative middle manager but they want the promotion for recognition.  

I have played PCs that got promoted into the "senior" ranks within a House.  I have also played PCs where it made sense for the character to be promoted but it wasn't.  Usually, when the situation called for a promotion but it was too big of a step up something else was granted or given (a title, a special item, a special set of responsibilities, perhaps a special skill) but it still wasn't like being promoted.  

People like promotions.  

But, in such things, I would put the trust in the staff.  When you play a sponsored role you are agreeing to play by a set of rules and restrictions that an independent character doesn't have to adhere to.  As such, play to the best of your ability and work with your staff.  If you feel like you should be promoted or that something isn't happening then talk with your staff and find out what the deal is.  Staff are awesome people who want to help.  They really do.  They are not against the players or out to screw the players or to stop the players or to hinder the players or any of that stuff.  

Has anyone been 'forced stored' in the past?  Probably at some point.  Was it against the player's will?  That I dunno.  Possibly?  But I doubt it.  But, maybe it happened once.  Thing is, this is so rare that what does it matter?  Individual situations are looked at individually.  

If someone has a particular suspicion or grievance about being 'forced to store' bring it up with the staff via the request tool.  Clear the air already.

For today, this type of situation would only involve a very small number of players and each of these players can discuss it with the staff and figure out something that works for all parties.  I suspect if someone really demonstrated a solid understanding of the virtual world around them and 'got' the social / political power of their organization at all levels then they'd probably be promoted to the higher rank since the player would understand that in doing so they are, effectively, changing their role entirely.

Semper added a post while I was writing so to address that:  Tuluk was designed like that and seems to be operating exactly like that.  A lot of the edicts from the Triumverate meetings were / are player initiated.  A lot of the buildings were built by PCs.  A lot of the changes to how the City grew and is growing are completely run by the players.  Plus, a lot of tribes operate like that.  Most organizations will listen to a player's input and will slowly change direction to support that as well... so long as it makes sense within the context of the game environment and political situation of the time.

[Twilight]

So, I disagree with folks that want unrestricted promotions.

I had a character that joined an organization.  Two weeks later, something bad ended up happening to the leader of the organization.  As there was some RP around this, he passed over leadership role (codedly) to my character.  It was either that, or promote the half-giant.

While it was interesting, it was also pretty horrible.  Partly because I was new, but partly because everyone I needed to interact with to deal with the IC events, except for once PC templar which maybe, just maybe, could help, was an NPC or vNPC.

Seriously, you don't want to be the Tokhar.  One step below the big cheese, I think will work in specific instances, but definately not the big cheese.

[Feco]

Some roles might be more viable if we had a more massive playerbase.

[A Large Bag]

The idea to create more ranks within the ranks for templars and nobles is an excellent idea. Even better for the templars I think.

[Is Friday]

I can't even imagine how much support you would need in order to be able to play a Red Robe/Senator without being a snowflake. Samos, for instance, was a huge snowflake with how much he chose to interact with the general populace. Red Robes aren't like Samos.

[jstorrie]

Man, I do not want to see PCs running Senates and city-states.

I've played MUDs where PCs were able to reach the absolute upper echelons of power. They sucked. Why? Because all of the kingly or senatorial stuff you'd want to do requires a ton of staff support, so unless you've got a personal assistant assigned to you from the staff pool you're going to constantly be like "fuck! I want this building erected/this military move made/these titles created/whatever" and it won't be possible without staff assistance and you feel like your role is totally meaningless and useless.

The current project of re-tuning high level advancement is meant to avoid glass ceiling situations by redirecting character growth away from 'dead ends' like red robe or captain. One immediate thing that comes to mind is stretching out the 'officer' and templar/noble ranks a bit... so that blue robes and sergeants don't start two ranks away from unplayability.

[Nyr]

Discussing the finer points of staff policy and how this prevents you from going, doing, and being...this is cathartic.  However, understand that you (the collective you, those of you that take issue with any staff policy in regards to this or related issues) are pointing out problems you have with the extreme cases that are usually never achieved.

An important note is that along with the clan documentation revamps we're slowly doing comes the opportunity to make more opportunities, rewards, and obstacles for those that do seek out leadership.  Definitely important, definitely difficult to do, and simultaneously not something we'd go out advertising until it is done.

[Kieandatu]

There aren't a lot of ranks between the starting rank of a sponsored family role (since, really, that is what is being discussed here - sponsored roles moving up in the power structure of their organization or, rather, their perceived inability to do so) and the next rank up.  

Promotion is s a natural human tendency and a great way to keep someone involved in an organization via continual promotions based on their successes.  

Introduce levels within the rank.  A blue robe may start out as blue robe 1 and move on up through the internal hierarchy to blue robe 9.  A blue robe 9 has greater influence and the power to bully blue robes beneath them but they are still not a red robe.  This could be done for nobles, merchant family members, and other political roles.

Players really just want a sense of forward achievement.  It isn't so much that they -want- to be a paper pushing administrative middle manager but they want the promotion for recognition.  

Quoting some really relevant parts from Marko. When I played a Templar, this never came into play, but in the back of my mind I knew that no matter how "good" I did, I would never see the next rank. Things have changed since then, but at the time there wasn't really much of a "recognition" that you were doing well, other than how the Staff Supervisor for your clan felt about your play and longevity.

It can be tough for people, when they have been that military Sergeant for 10 in game years, but never really see anything happen in game that can differentiate them from the new Sergeant that just apped in. Sure they know more PCs, but in the end, one isn't really "better" than the other, and it can be frustrating.

If there were a way to implement what Marko is talking about, similar to how some people RP out the "Senior Recruits have more responsibility and trust, but are still recruits" sort of thing, perhaps that would alleviate some pressure. With sponsored roles, this can be quite different, but staff -should- be amenable to working with you as a player to figure out whats going on.


TL;DR: People like promotions, and players often like to have a feeling of validation. That the time they put into this game means something, and someone IS appreciating what they do outside of the rare kudo (well, for me, but I'm not impressive)

[Bogre]

I think the glass ceiling is sort of a necessity, though I'm not sure why PC's can't be captains or whatnot.

It's when nobles and templars get to be house seniors/black robes that their power technically jumps beyond whatever is realistically feasible in game.

[Kebron]

The idea to create more ranks within the ranks for templars and nobles is an excellent idea. Even better for the templars I think.

Just want to point out, every now and again you get that 1 super active super-dousche templar that makes litteraly -everyones- life a living hell. Every few years theres at least one. Some are more memorable than others. And while this is not bad RP (By a long shot) Can you imagine the unplayability of 20 of those running around an area as small as allanak? The moment one leaves the gaj 2 more come in bored to molest someone else. If any badguy tries to rear their head they are imediately smacked down within 5 minutes because theres no downtime. Litteraly. Villains would have to be -perfect- which in a coded world they can't be. You'd hafta have a MUCH larger more complicated set of city-states to balance the power-levels. Otherwise you'd just have little bands of roving super-dicks making it absoulutely unplayable.

Here's the basic gyst of what the gaj would look like...



The gaj-
a corpse,
Another corpse
two more corpses
A templar
NPC's at the bar
couple PC's...

Templars leave,

One of the Pc's says "Feck!" Just as new templar is entering.

New templar "You dare use profanity in my august presence!"

New corpse on floor...

Look room...


The gaj.
A corpse.
Another corpse
another corpse
Another corpse
another corpse.

you get the idea.

[musashi]

Having promotions for sponsored roles is alright I guess, but in my humble opinion ... It's still going to come down to the same thing it always comes down to: Who is more popular.

A very well played leader is going to be a magnet for other characters who want to come be part of the awesomesauceorgy. Doesn't matter if they're a red robe with 10 years under their belt or a blue robe fresh out of step on the masses school. Players are gonna go with the one who's more entertaining to be under.

Whether or not there are more ranks for sponsored leaders to attain, I'm pretty sure that is going to remain the sole deciding factor in what separates leaders. Not rank, not who has been around longer.  

[MeTekillot]

Kebron what in the hell are you going on about?