Single weapon Advantages

[Trenidor]

Now I know there have been discussions on haveing etwo or shield or dual wield and crap like that, but is there anything special for only holding one weapon. I know that you get an advantage from the weight thing, but I want to know if there are any combat advantages, or even special skills that go along with it.
If there isn't one, I would suggest getting one, cuz I have heard about American Fencers going up agains Japanese Kendoests, and it was actually a fair battle. the fencer of coarse had to use a flimzy wooden sword instead of the metalic ones.

One main thing that I wanted to propose was putting in a hand grabbing like skill, you would have to have one hand free of a weapon, and where a combatant can do things like grab someones arm as the start to bring it down, or grab certain types of weapons (wooden bone others) that only have one edge, or even spears.
I'm thinking the whole: grab the wrist fling the other side of your body inwards to them, bring dagger to the side and stab, before they can use that weapon on you. Or even grab the weapon, and jerk downward, popping out a bone unless they let go as you're holding the weapon.

All you would have to do I think is alter the subdue command to a certain bodypart, I'm not positive, but If you have things set up as I think they are.....

Although I dont expect the staff to add in a bunch of those nifty things, but the grabbing with one hand thing would be cool, and if you do it wrong you get hurt (you try to grab __, but get hit in the process) I'm sure we can emote the rest of the stuff.

Either that nifty skill, or, if there isn't already an advantage to single wield, then I think there should be, like a boost in speed or something.

As always...the sometimes annoying, confused, or even sleepy Trenidor

cuz I have heard about American Fencers going up agains Japanese Kendoests, and it was actually a fair battle. the fencer of coarse had to use a flimzy wooden sword instead of the metalic ones.

That seems fairly odd, unless those were some quick evading fencers, since it's unlikely that any fencing sword in one hand can stand up to a good strike like that... but then again, it probably wasn't full out to the death...

Anyways, as far as a one handed weapon skill I'm going to say nay. Not many people throw a bare hand into combat, for a rightful fear of losing said hand. If someone were to do this, it would definitely be someone -very- experienced, or someone who got a hella good opprotunity.

At any rate I do think there is an advantage to single-wielding, just from a RL perspective (And Arm tends to reflect real life pretty well in things like that) When only using one hand, you do have the opprotunity to add the other hand for strength, you can move quicker, and you only need to concentrate on one weapon, so you can be more precise and not have to worry about other things (Like a weapon or a shield) getting caught up as you try to dodge.

I don't know if there is code for this, but I'd bet on it.

[Angela Christine]

I know that in the old AD&D 2ed using 2 weapons was fairly rare, and there were penalties for it.  If you would normally have, say, a 50% chance to hit with one weapon in a given combat round, then if you dual weilded you might have 40% chance to hit with your dominant weapon and 20% with your second weapon.  Over all you would hit more often with two weapons than with one, but not -twice- as often, and there were significant restrictions on what sort of weapon you could use in your off-hand.  Does Arm have a similar system?  I dunno.  Most of the largest weapons can only be ep or etwoed, but there are still some fairly large weapons that can be used off hand.

There isn't a helpfile for using a single weapon, but you may be able to infer on from the existing helpfiles.

SKILL_DUAL_WIELD    

This automatically-used skill is invoked whenever your character fights with a weapon in his/her secondary hand (see help es). It  represents your character's proficiency in fighting with two weapons.

Notes:
    It is somewhat easier to parry using two weapons.

    No shield can be employed when using two weapons, and your
character is thus somewhat easier to hit.

SKILL_SHIELD_USE

This automatic skill is invoked whenever your character is in combat. All blows which are about to land on your character are checked against a complicated system of relationships, including the "shield use" skill. A successful shield use can get your shield up, blocking a blow from
hitting a more sensitive area of the body. Note that it may not negate all damage, but it will reduce it from what it would have done.

Note:
    Wielding the shield (i.e., "ep shield") increases your character's chance of success.

SKILL_PARRY

This automatic skill is invoked whenever your character is in combat. All blows which are about to land on you are checked against a complicated system of relationships, including the parry skill. A successful parry nullifies all damage and causes your opponent to be 'off balance.'

Notes:
    Wielding two weapons increases your character's chance to parry.

    Using a shield improves your character's chance of success.

ETWO

This command will cause your character to wield a weapon or hold an object in both hands. It is the default for two-handed weapons.

Weapons held in both hands are more likely to parry and the added strength applied will allow your character to hit opponents more often and cause more damage (this may be a hazard, as excessive damage tends to break weapons). Also, heavier weapons than your character can use can only usually be used with etwo. It is inferior, however, to single-handed wielding in that no other weapon and no shield may be employed.


To summerize:

-Etwo lets you hit harder and parry better than a single weapon.
-Two weapons allows you to parry slightly better than a single weapon, and presumably allows you to hit more often than a single weapon.
-Shield and weapon will increase your chance to parry, and sometimes reduce or negate damage, vs. using a single weapon.

So it looks like you don't parry quite as well with one weapon as with the other options.  Dual wielding and etwoing let you do a little more dammage than a single weapon, while a shield will protect you a little more than an empty hand.  From these helpfiles there doesn't seem to be any benefit coded benefit to using a single weapon in one hand, but since that fighting style doesn't have it's own helpfile there may be some advantages that aren't mentioned.

You do potentially  save money, since you don't need to buy so many weapons.  If low strength is an issue sometimes every stone of weight puts you in danger of going into a damaging encumberance level, so saving a little weight might be worth it too.  However, most people that fight often carry more weapons than they use just in case their main weapon(s) is stollen, broken, dropped or disarmed and lost, so even a single wielder is probably going to carry at least  two weapons.

Then there are non-code elements, like style.  Most movies show people single wielding and using their off hand for balance, if you want to emote that style you need a free hand.   Most people can only use a single weapon while riding, so at least you won't feel half-naked while riding, since you are used to using just one.  And you won't have to constantly be drawing and sheathing that second weapon every time you encounter trouble on the road.  You can whip out a lantern or other tool into your off hand instantly, a small benefit but it's something.     You can also switch between ep and etwo as the situation warrents, so for those times when you want a little bit extra you can etwo.

Maybe single weilding is slightly inferior code-wise  (I don't know, honestly) but you like a challenge or you like to show off.  A guy who can kick your ass without drawing a second weapon is a scarry guy.  Or you are bored, you want to make your fighter's role a little more challenging because you _know_ you can succeed with your typical fighting style you want to try something different.  You might want a small coded penalty to off-set stats that are "too high" for the role you had planned: for example you wanted a weak, clumsy, or sickly character but you rolled god-like stats.  

AC

[Trenidor]

I like tony's idea of it being easier to learn and quicker to use. A point I would like to say is that Iaido, a japanese Sword fighting, is composed of one handed use of the sword, and at some times it will switch off to two handed for the stronger cuts.
I am still not sure there isn't code specifics in the game that makes it have it's own advantage.

I wanted to know about the grabbing thing really, It isn't that hard to grab someones arm if they are: A. inexperienced, B. The weapon is easy enough to grab, or C. The person is slow.
If you were fast enough, and the person was going up to bring their weapon down on you, wouldn't you be able to grab there arm through quick thinking and action? Now I've heard of many people talking about how range is something to consider, what if you were haveing a close ranged fight in which you were only about a couple feet or less apart. That would make it hard for people to fight, but those skilled at it would be masters because they could fight that close, where as those with long weapons, spears, clubs, longswords. Whould have a hard time lifting up their weapon to strike you.
Now I wouldn't say make code for that, but the grabbing thing would be something you could learn if you were really good at weapons that are short ranged,  shortswords, daggers, knifes, ect. and you would also have to have a great deal of hand to hand fighting in, or at least the ability to take objects without people knowing.
I'm thinking that the acrobat should have the skill to start with, but at the lowest it could be, while still having the skill. The help docs say that they are good with their arms and hands, being able to do things that others couldn't because they are so fast.
Now at the same time, those people that are good enough with the knife, could do that also.

Maybe I'm just crazy, and in which case don't even listen to what I am saying. I think it would be an excelent skill to have, it would be something to do with timeing, skill, agillity, and strength.
-Strength is used to hold it there as long as you can without them moving.
-Agillity is used in which to calculate if they are fast enough to even get there in time before the other person.
-skill is is used to see if they are skilled enough to grab them.
-and the timing is used for when you operate the command, you have to do it before they swing, or else you will be too late, and you would have been an easy target for them.

Size may also be a factor, you arent going to be able to grab their wrist if it is five feet above you, in wich case you shouldn't be trying to grab them because they will most likely be a lot stronger than you.

Now I know it might seem unreasonable to grab someones weapon while they are fighting at you, I don't really expect the command to work on that also, but for some weapons, spears and things like that, when someone is jabbing at you, you might be able to grab the shaft, whips might be the same, you might get hurt in the process, but you could still be able to grab it.

Now for the emoteing part, why it is reasonable to have a command/skill that will do it, and not just emote the whole thing. When someone grabs your wrist, it could be deflected by some oily armor, or they might get hurt becase they are open. It also would prevent they from useing one weapon, say they had a sword and a dagger, they could only use the dagger on you while you are fighting them. That also brings up that the person doing the grabbing might be more suseptible to the second weapon, becase they have to hold their arm to the other persons arm.


Sorry for this being so long.
-Trenidor

[Dan]

Trenidor, I think its really good that your putting so much thought into an idea like this. Which makes what I am about to type make me feel sort of like a jerk.

Everything your mentioning is already supported by code. Not with a single skill, but with a few. You want to grab someones weapon for whatever reason, keep a single weapon in your off hand and try to disarm. The amount of risk here is great, but I think it should be pretty risky, going for someone's weapon with your bare hand. You can emote grabbing for someone's arm in an attempt to throw them down, then bash. Look at what you are trying to accomplish with grabbing someone in a fight. Immobilize their attacks-Disarm them and emote grabbing. Knock them down or to the side-bash them and emote doing something with your off hand. The kick skill can be interpreted in other ways as well, emote grabbing -for- their arm in an attempt to pull them down at your rising knee. Make sure to keep all emotes open-ended, also be sure that you aren't forcing them to do something or giving yourself a success, by say, actually touching them in an emote unless it is right after a sucessful attack. I just think that what we have now can accomplish all that your asking with this skill. Plus, it'd keep the imms from alot of hard work. Balance issuses within classes and subguilds, tweaking the skill  and so on in the future.

I don't like Tony's idea. For one, it would be real easy to abuse. We would have everyone running around with a single weapon until day ten, and instantly be super-powerful becuase of their accelerated learning. If this is in fact what Tony was suggesting. Im not 100% on that.

So basically, I think the code already supports all of this, just with creative use of current skills and utilizing thought-out emotes.

I don't like Tony's idea. For one, it would be real easy to abuse. We would have everyone running around with a single weapon until day ten, and instantly be super-powerful becuase of their accelerated learning. If this is in fact what Tony was suggesting. Im not 100% on that.

That's not what I was suggesting. I wasn't clear, I see that, but what I meant was that while single-handed technique is not as powerful as others, it's probably not completely abandoned code-wise. You know, if you got bonuses from dual-wield or shield use, then you went to a one handed technique, you wouldn't fight the same, just without the bonuses. You'd probably get some bonuses, but to a much lesser extent.

What I meant with the "very experienced" comment was that it's difficult to throw a bare hand into combat, one has to know the weapons, be able to judge the speed of a strike, be able to size up the opponent's strength and reaction time, have good reactions oneself, and an assortment of other things that come with long long amounts of training. But what I figure is that then these hand-grabs and whatnot would be covered by other things, like disarm and kick and whatnot, but also that a blow of "vicously mutilates you on your head" could be conceived as the off hand pushing extra force into the blow, grabbing the guy and slicing the neck, grabbing their shoulder or some such and running them through etc. etc. Sort of like how in D&D the d8 damage for a longsword is assumed to be taking place all through the round, not necesarily on one strike, and that there are more than one attack going on each round, and that a critical hit doesn't just have to be a bone-cleaving chop, but could be a super-stab or maybe even multiple, deep, non-bone-cleaving slashes.

Anyway, in conclusion. Fighting with only one weapon just isn't as good as dual-wielding or shield-use when you at least know what you're doing but probably isn't as terrible as it's made out to be. Oh, and wielding a weapon in one hand would probably be much easier for a fighter that was just beginning, like say a merchant. I would think that anyone of guild Warrior, Ranger, Assassin or Burglar would be above that level of competence.

[kiddgoth]

Heres something I dont understand how come when you are only using one weapon you dont get an unarmed strike with your empty off hand? If you hold a shield in your off hand you can attack unarmed with your primary and if you drop the shield to hit with both hands. So why not if you are fighting with one weapon you also get an unarmed attack with your other hand? Makes sense dosent it?

[Jacques]

Forgive me if I've missed the point here, but isn't using a single weapon in one hand the standard by which all the "slightly increased chance" messages are based? I mean, increased relative to WHAT? Well, relative to using one weapon in one hand. If you've got a shield, you'll parry more often. More often than what? Than if you DIDN'T have the shield. If you use a weapon two-handed, you'll hit more often. More often than what? Than if you used it one handed.

If this is the case, then a "bonus" for doing anything one-handed is a bit like giving humans a "bonus" for being humans. It's a bit silly - they're the standard. Everything else is based on them.

Good call Jacques.

Perhaps a better way to put it is that other styles would have a negative bonus as compared to singe-handed.

So dual-wield takes a hit to strength damage bonuses. Shield might take a hit to dodge bonus. That might clear up what I've been saying, but it is nearly midnight and I'm awfully tired, I'll try to clarify tomorrow.

[Tlaloc]

I deleted a post for containing alot of game mechanics and number crunching. Please do not discuss numbers or code specifics, regardless of weather or not you think its right or wrong.

This whole thread treads precariously on that line. Please be careful, and remember that game mechanics is not kosher information. If you have to think about weather or not something is too IC to post, please don't post it.

Thanks-

Sorry Tlaloc, I've been posting about how RL would apply, I'm just trying to think about it logically. I don't have enough experience with these different combat styles to really discuss the current game mechanics as I do erm... RL mechanics.

[Trenidor]

Ok, let me see if I've got most of this...

Single Weapon is an advantage its self, the other ways have some sort of flaw right? or am I wrong to assume that they have disadvantages as well as advantages?

You Guys/gals are confusing me more and more all the time.

And if the human is norm, and everything was developed from them, do the humans not have advantages that are other races disadvantages?

Im still confused, so any help here would do good.

My question is if there are advantages, if there are disadvantages to the others, then does the single wield have the greatest of advantage just because it has advantages %Against% the other ways?

Can someone plz clear up the confusion these people have put apon me?

[spawnloser]

I don't know if this is too much code info, but considering I don't know much about combat yet, this is just how I understand it...

- If you're using a two-handed weapon, it is big so does more damage...that is it's benefit.
- If you're using two weapons, you get twice as many attacks, which is it's benefit...but you may not, if you're not good enough at 'dual wield,' which is it's flaw.
- If you're using a shield and a weapon, you don't have to worry about a second skill for your attacking, but you have a better defense while using the shield...how effective that is is dependant on you 'shield use' skill.

Now...I'm not going to say what conclusions I draw from these observations of mine, as I think that would be too in depth on code mechanics.  However, I will say one thing that I have learned, "Screw the code and F'ing play your character the way s/he should be!"

[Carnage]

http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4367

Last post is mine and basically detailing the different fighting styles. If you're willing to read it and look far enough into it and think logically about it you can get the basic idea of what's what. The end of it gives my summary which basically says that I would usually rather have something in my off hand than nothing at all.