Metals in, on, and under Zalanthas

The discussion on weapon's breaking brought up a brief message about steel and metal-workers and such, and I figured I'd ask a question I've had for awhile about the overall state of metal in the world.

Basically the documentation says its extremely, almost impossibly rare to come across. But I've heard people talk about the 'old times' when metal swords and things were actually pretty come-across-able, and then there are the occassional booms like the HRPT, where some what seems like 50 metal items were filtered into circulation.

So I'm wondering what the status is on knowledge of metals in the world. I'm guessing that Zalanthas isn't a totally alien world thinking about the make-up of the planet, and that there is some relatively similar "Elements" like oxygen, nitrogen, etc, -including- the metal elements. With that said, do people (even a rare few) understand that metal probably comes from the earth? I heard that the red in the desert sand is probably caused by some form of iron oxide below, meaning there might be some form of thicker deposit not too far below the sand.

Or does the populace consider 'steel' 'silver' 'gold' or the shiny metasl  to be some form of magical material from who knows where, as obviously they wouldn't have seen it in an unworked state, but probably in the rings, the rare gaudy templar, or evil ruler statue/monument.

So then with that said, (this might be a find out IC thing, but Im asking anyways as I'll probably never have a character who it would really be fathomable IC to think/purse) does metal actually get worked? Maybe in the high-chambers of Tektolne's golden tower? Because you'd assume that these swords and things that exist were actually made somewhere, maybe relics from before the currently preserved history?

And next, with all that said, would a commoner of minimal learning even know they were looking at metal? I imagine if a house-wife/husband who's spent much of his/her life in vicinity of his/her home that came across a sword of steel might be a bit confused. Would they consider it a well-painted sword of some other material?

And finally I've heard in the documentation I think, that most people that 'come across' metal become very suspicious and cautious due to all the people that will attempt to steal it, because its so valuable. But if no one can safely keep it, why is it worth anything? And can anyone legally own metal? Or is it considered property of someone like the Highlord?

Anyways, thats all.

[Marc]

Let me try to take this one piece at a time:

Basically the documentation says its extremely, almost impossibly rare to come across. But I've heard people talk about the 'old times' when metal swords and things were actually pretty come-across-able, and then there are the occassional booms like the HRPT, where some what seems like 50 metal items were filtered into circulation.

In the "old days" you could buy metal jewelry in numerous places, from silver necklaces to brass rings.  People would form kill parties to nail the guy in 'nak with the steel longsword, slay templars for steel halfswords etc etc.  It resembled a H&S more then Arm today.

So I'm wondering what the status is on knowledge of metals in the world. I'm guessing that Zalanthas isn't a totally alien world thinking about the make-up of the planet, and that there is some relatively similar "Elements" like oxygen, nitrogen, etc, -including- the metal elements. With that said, do people (even a rare few) understand that metal probably comes from the earth? I heard that the red in the desert sand is probably caused by some form of iron oxide below, meaning there might be some form of thicker deposit not too far below the sand.

Or does the populace consider 'steel' 'silver' 'gold' or the shiny metasl to be some form of magical material from who knows where, as obviously they wouldn't have seen it in an unworked state, but probably in the rings, the rare gaudy templar, or evil ruler statue/monument.

Dunno.

So then with that said, (this might be a find out IC thing, but Im asking anyways as I'll probably never have a character who it would really be fathomable IC to think/purse) does metal actually get worked? Maybe in the high-chambers of Tektolne's golden tower? Because you'd assume that these swords and things that exist were actually made somewhere, maybe relics from before the currently preserved history?

That is a tightly held secret by a few orginizations in the Known world.  To the how, where, and who, that is better discovered ICly.

And next, with all that said, would a commoner of minimal learning even know they were looking at metal? I imagine if a house-wife/husband who's spent much of his/her life in vicinity of his/her home that came across a sword of steel might be a bit confused. Would they consider it a well-painted sword of some other material?

I'd say yes since the metals in the world (ours and Zalanthas) have a number of unique properties.  They would be extremely hot or cold depending on where they were incountered as they conduct energy well.  They would be very solid and heavy etc etc ad nausia.  In addition most commoners would have seen some form of metal in their life, whether the black dragon in allanak or a nobles ring.

As for tribals, I couldn't say.

And finally I've heard in the documentation I think, that most people that 'come across' metal become very suspicious and cautious due to all the people that will attempt to steal it, because its so valuable. But if no one can safely keep it, why is it worth anything? And can anyone legally own metal? Or is it considered property of someone like the Highlord?

It is worth something because it is rare and useful.  You can use metal for all sorts of things if you have the know how.  Other then that it is also a status symbol.

As far as owning it, so long as no one can take it from you, I would assume it is property just like anything else.  Just expect plenty of people to covet it.

Hope that answers something for you

[Rindan]

I should point out that yes a commoner knows exactly what steel looks like.  Next time you walk outside of Allanak's gates... try looking up.

[Angela Christine]

Personally, with no relevent in game knowledge at all, I don't think there are any significant deposits of metal ore that could be excavated using hand powered stone tools.

We had the old Council of Kings, which sounds like a fairly advanced civilization, but it was already in decline at the top of the timeline.  My impression is that they had elementalists by not defilers.  Then a few centuries of warring feudalism.  The Dragon swoops in and sets up his own empire, full of fun plagues and stuff.  The Dragon leaves, his empire colapses, and various wandering tribes come together to form cities over the last several hundred years.  Durring the centuries of warring feudalism before the arival of the Dragon they probably had technology as good or better than what is currently available (with the exception of defiler-powered technology) and the motive to dig up any available metal.  

I agree that the red sand likely contains iron, but I come to a more fanciful explanation.  There are not large deposits of iron under the red desert, instead the iron residue is the result of the Dragon wars.  I don't want to dig my old AD&D manuals out of their boxes, but I'm pretty sure there was a spell for causing metal to rust and decay, possibly a psionic ability that did the same thing as well.  In an epic battle the Dragon, or his servants, unleashead a fearsome corruption spell that turned the metal weapons and armor of the opposing army to dust.  Red, iron-rich dust.  It was a pretty nifty spell, and since it was defiling magick it also killed all the grass and trees in the valley.  Oh yeah, then they slaughtered the army, which was pretty easy since they were standing around in their underwear going "WTF?"  :twisted:  So the previously green valley was killed by defiling magick, and littered with rust.  Repeat a few dozen times, as various feuding fiefdoms futilly tryed to fight off the the Dragon one by one.  Silly rabbits.

So the reason you can't find many entire objects made of metal is because most of the metal is dust, liberally mixed with they sand and dead soil of the deserts. I have no evidence to indicate that I'm right, but it makes for a better story than "Zalanthas has less metal than Earth" or "Zalanthians are too dumb to dig it up."  

AC



Angela Christine

I should point out that yes a commoner knows exactly what steel looks like. Next time you walk outside of Allanak's gates... try looking up.

A good deal of commoners will never step outside the city gates in their life-time.

Also just because its there doesn't mean someone knows what it is. Yes its in the description of the item when looked at, but might just be some strange material. Unless informed, I wouldn't just have assumed its metal, let alone steel.

I agree that the red sand likely contains iron, but I come to a more fanciful explanation. There are not large deposits of iron under the red desert, instead the iron residue is the result of the Dragon wars. I don't want to dig my old AD&D manuals out of their boxes, but I'm pretty sure there was a spell for causing metal to rust and decay, possibly a psionic ability that did the same thing as well. In an epic battle the Dragon, or his servants, unleashead a fearsome corruption spell that turned the metal weapons and armor of the opposing army to dust. Red, iron-rich dust. It was a pretty nifty spell, and since it was defiling magick it also killed all the grass and trees in the valley. Oh yeah, then they slaughtered the army, which was pretty easy since they were standing around in their underwear going "WTF?"  So the previously green valley was killed by defiling magick, and littered with rust. Repeat a few dozen times, as various feuding fiefdoms futilly tryed to fight off the the Dragon one by one. Silly rabbits

Thats neat, I like that. Armor rust

[Savak]

Some of the points:

1) The old days.  Yeah, back in the early 90's metal was relatively accessible and visible in the game.  But as has been pointed out, those were fledgling days for Armageddon and should not be considered accurately reflective of "the way things are" in Zalanthas.  Stories of that level of abundance might be a thing of lore, but not of reality, certainly not within the last thousand IC years or so.

2) Theories.  AC's isn't terrible, but I'm not calling it accurate.  Just know that metal is rare; "why" isn't likely to be known by anyone IC'ly, although folks/clans may have their various beliefs.

3) People's views.  I think this is highly individual.  I don't have a problem with the average commoner being able to identify something as metallic, if only by process of elimination (it ain't wood, it ain't cloth, it ain't bone, hide, horn..).  I also think a good number of stories would be told about metal/metallic objects, although again not always completely accurate.  I doubt many people view metal as inherently magickal, but a few may.  Part of the draw to metal is the fact that it's NOT generally considered magickal, and thus is relatively "safe" in and of itself.  A magickal item, however, would be terrifying to most.

4) Ownership.  I tend to agree that if you can keep it.. you can keep it.  There's no official law regarding it, which of course doesn't protect one from the whims of a templar anyway.  In most cases someone with metal will be unlikely to give it up easily, and likely has lots of friends to eat you if you succeed.  But metal in any form will draw a high price on any market.  Worth more than its weight in mul-flesh.

-Savak

[Rindan]

A good deal of commoners will never step outside the city gates in their life-time.

Also just because its there doesn't mean someone knows what it is. Yes its in the description of the item when looked at, but might just be some strange material. Unless informed, I wouldn't just have assumed its metal, let alone steel.

Uh, I am refering to the massive steel Dragon that sits over Allanak's gates, the one tha the swarming masses to go pray to every single moring.  I would say it is safe to say that every single commoner in Allanak has seen it, and that it is common knowledge that it is steel.  The fact that it is steel is not something that would be kept secret, as that is what makes it an awesome symbol.  Not only is it big and impressive, but it is made out of pure steel.

[Anonymous]

I don't know about the abundance thing in the old days, I think it was fairly well balanced at the time that I can think of...I only saw two metal items held by pc's during that time.
Since my return to the game in the last year, I've seen a big fat 0 of useful metals in the hands of pc's other than a key made from metal...heh...which my char at the time junked... :twisted:
I've always wanted to junk a metal item.

[Anonymous]

Heh, the dragon in 'Nak is probably made of hardened kank dung with steel plates secured to it to make it look cool.

I was under the impression that most metal items (At least the iron items) were relics that were either used in their current state (Probably not too rusty, you know, lack of water and all) or reworked into other pieces. I don't know that modern Zalanthans know about iron ore, smelting, or the bessemer process.

But Silver, Gold and Bronze are a different story, they're much more easily identifiable in their raw-from-the-ground state, and are therefore arguably more easily found and -more- common than iron. But unfortunately, silver gold and bronze all suck in a hardcore way when it comes to metals used for anything useful. But they would I guess all be good for a ring or key or bracelet or codpiece. Actually, I don't think it would be too useful for keys, but I don't like that Zalanthan key situation to begin with.

[John]

Or does the populace consider 'steel' 'silver' 'gold' or the shiny metasl  to be some form of magical material from who knows where

I've always had my chars believe in the olden days before the Dragon came, metal was common and used all the time.  But then the Dragon came and everything changed. Now all the metal has dissapeared and all of the current metal, was found in the ancient ruins of the buried cities.

I figure kids are told tales about the times before the Dragon, and about the buried cities that contain all sorts of treasures. All of the tales being complete fabrications of course.

[Dracul]

Slightly off topic: but john.....those stories, fabrications and myths of the world than a typicaly zalanthian acutally may or may not beleive....they are the shit. Especially hearing one IC from another char that you haven't heard before, it's pretty cool.

[jstorrie]

In typical 'Dark Sun' settings, isn't the metal corrupted by the same defiler magic that ends up sucking the life out of the planet?  AFAIK, most similar settings contend that defiler magic on the scale of what burned out the entire planet also had the power to destroy many 'useful' elements.

So it doesn't have to make much sense at all.  It's maaaaaagic.

After all, if you went by a purely scientific explanation, where'd all the water go?  Zalanthas being hot just makes the water evaporate, not disappear, but Zalanthas isn't super-humid.  If overuse of defiler magic can turn areas to barren wasteland and coat the user in ash, I'd bet it could also turn iron deposits into rust deposits.

But then, Zalanthas isn't a 'typical Dark Sun setting' either, so there may be some other explanation.

As for knowledge of metal - the typical Naki commoner may know what steel looks like, but not know its properties or uses.  Thus they might not think at first sight that a steel sword would be particularly better.  Even being hefted around there might be some disagreement - it sure is duller than obsidian, isn't it?  One would have to experiment to realize steel's superior tensile strength and resilience, although the fact that it was much heavier would at least be apparent.

Would all weapons have been steel?  The average grunt in an ancient army may have just been given a bronze breastplate and an iron shortsword or iron-pointed spear.  Zalanthas isn't infinitely dry, iron would have rusted by 'now' if left out in the open.

Finally, if defiler magic could cause the mass corrosion of iron deposits, why aren't magickers creating spells to transmute things back into iron/steel?  Maybe some are, and there's a big secret arms factory somewhere... who knows?

That's all I've got.  Also, this is my first post here.  Hi.

[Angela Christine]

Finally, if defiler magic could cause the mass corrosion of iron deposits, why aren't magickers creating spells to transmute things back into iron/steel?

Why?  Because steel weapons could turned against them, of course.  If you've looked at the steel dragon statue, that thing if friggin' huge.  Even if it is hollow, that's enough steel to give ever Templar in the city a steel sword and breastplate.  If it is solid it's probably enough to also give every soldier a steel shortsword or steel tipped spear.  But once those weapons are out there, they can fall into the wrong hands and they can be turned against you.  In general magickers aren't known for being great with weapons, so they would be making these things for other people to use, people they might not trust.  

Faith isn't all that keeps the Templars in line, they also know that their magickal power comes directly from their sorcer-god-king, so they won't betray him because they would be left powerless to control the disgruntled masses.  Give the Templars and their top soldiers metal weapons and armor, and they might figure that they could hold the city without magick and kill their crazed god-king in a bloody coup.  It's the same arguement as gun control, if only a few people (military, police, and criminals) have guns then the populace is at their mercy, but if either everyone or absolutely no one has guns, then the populace can defend themselves against would-be tyrents.  Metal weapons would break or seriously dull weapons made out of obsidian, wood and bone, and metal armor can turn aside most attacks from those softer materials.  Metal is dangerous.  Far better to keep your metal reserve locked up in a statue where you can keep an eye on it then to have it floating around just waiting to be stollen by criminals and rebels.

Some magickers that don't own empires might be powerful enough to figure out how to sythesize metal, but again there is little incentive for them to try it.  I assume creating/reconstructing the metal wouldn't necessarily give the skill to shape it into a strong, powerful weapon.  Most mages are not good with weapons, so a metal weapon would not do them as much good as it would do a skilled warrior.  And finally, carrying metal will attract attention, unfriendly attention, and the last thing most small time mages want is to draw attention to themselves.  I suppose he could sell the metal, but by the time he was powerful enough to create metal there probably isn't much that he would need to buy anyway.

AC

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

Hundreds of gallons of blood? Better try it at the upcoming HRPT!  :lol: