How do we Fix Burglary?

[Sephiroto]

After pouring over the apartments/burglary posts I got to thinking about why we have such a problem with it in Armageddon.  I see the apartments/burglary thing is a beast that feeds itself.  Players want a place to put their stuff and burglars look for valuables to steal.  Simple enough, right?  Well, unlike other fantasy games, Armageddon doesn't have a system of balances to keep burglary in check.  Essentially, everything is open game.  This in itself is very unrealistic and it is all because there is a lack of VNPC witnessing to peg thieves.

If you think of Armageddon as your traditional RPG game where the player can walk into a shop or house and loot medical herbs and coins from pots and dressers as the heroes of our favorite roleplaying games do, then most would agree that something just doesn't make sense, yet this is almost what seems to happen in our game.  So, in more "realistic" games like Oblivion items stolen from houses, shops, and other public places are tagged as stolen items.  In those games it isn't "illegal" to own these "stolen" goods per se, but the player will be arrested if they attempt to sell these items or are caught with them in possession.

Because of the system in Oblivion, players generally only steal items from public locations or private property in a much more realistic manner, else they suffer the consequences.  If they need the item specifically, if they have a way to fence them off for cash, or out of greed for personal possession of something valuable then they may make all attempts to take the item.  Because of this, all but the most poor of thieves leave the candle sticks, forks, wine bottles, chairs, etc., where they belong.  Because of this system the way items are stolen is much more realistic.  You're still welcome to steal (if you can get away with it) and you're good to deal these items behind the scenes, but other folks know the items are hot.

Because Armageddon cannot fully take into account VNCP population as witnesses to crime in public or near private quarters I think that a system similar to that used in Oblivion and similar games would be worth developing.  The immediate effect would be increased safety of personal items left out and about in public location (when they belong to a public entity) and private quarters.  The secondary and just as important benefit is because of this system the need for shady (benign unlawful) and criminal rings such as the Guild becomes necessary to profit from thievery and in effect, becomes a clan for viable means other than spice smuggling and murder.

In no way to I suggest we simply rip off another game's mechanics, but I do think it would be reasonable to develop our own system that works suitably to overcome limitations of our hard-coded world to enforce reality of action upon our PC's.  Looking at the way Oblivion works is certainly a start.

[Qzzrbl]

Eh.... One thing that always got me about Oblivion though, is how did the shopkeepers know the item was stolen?

[Kankman]

I don't think it's broken.

[Ampere]

No.  Alot of players talk about balance, to me balance should come second to realism. I personally believe that looting small items from dressers is perfectly realistic. It happens. ...but I agree with your sentiment. When people begin stealing couches, they're doing the game a serious disservice, but I suppose some people believe that if the code allows it to happen, it must be alright.

Speaking to the problem, I have a several suggestions that when combined offer a solution:
- a failed sneak past the landlord = crimflag.  
- classes with the ability to burgle require karma.
- staff ratified code of conduct for the few who still can't figure it out.

Your proposed solution just doesn't make any sense from where I'm sitting.   In a world of bone swords and almost universal illiteracy, nobody's going to be able to identify stolen merchandise.  More than that, in a world plagued by scarcity, they're just not going to care.

[Qzzrbl]

A code that would crimflag non-renters that didn't follow renters in who leave past the landlord/guard would fix -alot- of the problems related to overburgling.

[Synthesis]

Kill every motherfucking burglar you see on sight.

[Armaddict]

Kill every motherfucking burglar you see on sight.

+1.  Templars should go light on a guy who says, "Sorry, Lord Templar/Faithful Lord.  I caught 'em, I got 'em, I kilt 'em."  They should even say, "Thanks for the help.  You can bribe me with less coin than usual."

I'm sorry, but the only thing that scares away burglars is not crimflags.  It's death.

[Qzzrbl]

Well, if anything, the crimflag ideas would cut down on burglars stealing huge things they shouldn't be able to steal anyway.

Would also cut down on the amount they could feasibly steal, as overencumbrance kinda jams a knife in your stealth skills and gives the blade a nice little twist.

[Synthesis]

Crimflags won't matter for burglars, because they have the best stealth in the game.

Give a burglar 2 days of sneaking around and they will beat even (master) scan and listen every time, easily.

[Qzzrbl]

Crimflags won't matter for burglars, because they have the best stealth in the game.

Give a burglar 2 days of sneaking around and they will beat even (master) scan and listen every time, easily.

Again, hard to use stealth when you're carrying too much stolen loot -- unless you decide to drop your bag of swag before you get swarmed by guards.

Which will pretty much force burglars to use more discretion when picking through an apartment.

Sure.... There may be a couple ways around it, but! It would be a step in the right direction imho.

[Synthesis]

I think you'd be surprised what people can get away with with maxed sneak/hide.

I've experienced elves dragging dead bodies around passing sneak-checks at nearly 100% vs. maxed listen.

[Old Kank]

Arm is almost 20 years old, and almost nothing has been done with the burglar class; I say it's high time to throw them a bone and improve things for burglars AND their victims.

Increase the number of apartments by ten-fold, so Allanak and Tuluk each have about 300-400 apartments in them.  Set it up so that every Wednesday morning, every vacant apartment has a 75% chance of being rented out to a V/NPC for that week.  (Or, if that's too complicated, simply add ~350 apartments to each city that are permanently leased by V/NPCs)  In V/NPC leased apartments, have a random chance of basic loot spawn, and maybe a rare chance for some slightly-more-valuable loot spawn, and let the burglars go to town.  Assuming a dynamic leasing structure, players will be protected by basic statistical odds and burglars will finally be able to survive off NPCs in the same way warriors, rangers, assassins, pickpockets, and merchants have been able to for the last 10 years.

To compensate for a sudden abundance of targets, make burglary slightly more challenging:
   *Add soldiers that patrol apartments, and hand out crimflags for things like being alone in apartment buildings where you aren't a tenant.
   *Make lockpicks more expensive, harder to get, and easier to lose.
   *Add NPCs inside some of the V/NPC apartments that go aggro when people open their doors.
   *Give an automatic crimflag for breaking into an apartment that someone has logged out in.
   *Give players a warning when they're about to enter an apartment that someone else has logged out in: "You open the door.  It appears someone is inside!"
   *If a burglar breaks into your PC's apartment while they are logged out inside, send the burglar's description to that player next time they log in.

[Armaddict]

There's a reason me and Synthesis are both saying burglars don't fear crimflags, man.  It's scary. XD

[Aaron Goulet]

I like Qzzrbl's suggestion, and it could work if encumbrance affected stealth more drastically.  I don't care how good you are at sneaking about, it's going to be hard to move unnoticed when you are carrying your own weight in goods, or hide when you're carrying a table.

What keeps pickpockets in check?  The fact that failure, in most cases, means imprisonment (and sometimes even death).  Even if the above were to be implemented, burglars would still have things MUCH better than pickpockets, so long as they kept their encumbrance at 'manageable' or whatever when leaving a heist.  This would keep them from stealing absolutely everything (unless they have half-giant strength).

[Lizzie]

Once upon a time, there was a mythological union. They had a crew of burglars, a few thugs, and a couple of extortionists. Burglars would burglarize according to the needs of the organization. The thugs would ensure that the burglars were kept in line and didn't take from people who paid up. The extortionists would visit tenants and let them know that for a small monthly fee, their apartment would be sufficiently protected from the local burglar's union. Anyone who refused was fair game. Anyone who paid was protected. And any burglar who refused to join the union had a chat with the organization's thugs.

If everyone paid, and there was nothing to burgle, the organization would examine whose payment needed to go up, and the burglar would be sent to that apartment to bust in and take 1 or 2 items that would be noticed, but not ruin the delicate balance. Then the extortionists would return a visit to that tenant and let them know that oh dear, there are new burglars on the block, so the price to protect them just went up. Meanwhile, the burglars have had a chance to burgle some more, the extortionists have had a chance to extort more, and the thugs are -always- busy becuase there are always burglars who refuse to join the union (or who aren't allowed to join it)

There was also another union, that worked similarly, and was in direct competition with the first union. So they had lots of fun competing for dominance, and many PCs died, and a few PCs rose to power. They all had to kick in a percentage to the local templarate, who would politely look the other way while the organizations kept the insides of buildings safe, thus allowing their soldiers to extort from random and sundry nobility and other wealthy people to keep them safe while walking the streets.

There was no need for code changes, or lock changes, or rental increases, or NPC guards. It was all done via the playerbase, with an occasional assist from the staff when one side or another was too low in PC population.

It was a beautiful symbiosis. I don't know why it doesn't happen anymore.

[Aaron Goulet]

Once upon a time, there was a mythological union. They had a crew of burglars, a few thugs, and a couple of extortionists. Burglars would burglarize according to the needs of the organization. The thugs would ensure that the burglars were kept in line and didn't take from people who paid up. The extortionists would visit tenants and let them know that for a small monthly fee, their apartment would be sufficiently protected from the local burglar's union. Anyone who refused was fair game. Anyone who paid was protected. And any burglar who refused to join the union had a chat with the organization's thugs.

If everyone paid, and there was nothing to burgle, the organization would examine whose payment needed to go up, and the burglar would be sent to that apartment to bust in and take 1 or 2 items that would be noticed, but not ruin the delicate balance. Then the extortionists would return a visit to that tenant and let them know that oh dear, there are new burglars on the block, so the price to protect them just went up. Meanwhile, the burglars have had a chance to burgle some more, the extortionists have had a chance to extort more, and the thugs are -always- busy becuase there are always burglars who refuse to join the union (or who aren't allowed to join it)

There was also another union, that worked similarly, and was in direct competition with the first union. So they had lots of fun competing for dominance, and many PCs died, and a few PCs rose to power. They all had to kick in a percentage to the local templarate, who would politely look the other way while the organizations kept the insides of buildings safe, thus allowing their soldiers to extort from random and sundry nobility and other wealthy people to keep them safe while walking the streets.

There was no need for code changes, or lock changes, or rental increases, or NPC guards. It was all done via the playerbase, with an occasional assist from the staff when one side or another was too low in PC population.

It was a beautiful symbiosis. I don't know why it doesn't happen anymore.

+1!!!  I would have loved to be a part of that.  I think one of the big barriers is probably that most people think it's too daunting of a task to start such a thing.  I can't say for sure if it actually is, because I've never attempted anything on that scale.

Edited to add: Back on topic, because the situation you described is actually a rare thing, I still think that a few realism tweaks would help keep over-burgling in check, or at least increase the chances of getting caught if someone tries to take the proverbial kitchen sink.

[Reiteration]

The trick is to hide under the table and slowly crawl away.  

However, I find burglary to not be broken, it's the players that are abusing it's potential.

[Akaramu]

Arm is almost 20 years old, and almost nothing has been done with the burglar class; I say it's high time to throw them a bone and improve things for burglars AND their victims.

Increase the number of apartments by ten-fold, so Allanak and Tuluk each have about 300-400 apartments in them.  Set it up so that every Wednesday morning, every vacant apartment has a 75% chance of being rented out to a V/NPC for that week.  (Or, if that's too complicated, simply add ~350 apartments to each city that are permanently leased by V/NPCs)  In V/NPC leased apartments, have a random chance of basic loot spawn, and maybe a rare chance for some slightly-more-valuable loot spawn, and let the burglars go to town.  Assuming a dynamic leasing structure, players will be protected by basic statistical odds and burglars will finally be able to survive off NPCs in the same way warriors, rangers, assassins, pickpockets, and merchants have been able to for the last 10 years.

To compensate for a sudden abundance of targets, make burglary slightly more challenging:
   *Add soldiers that patrol apartments, and hand out crimflags for things like being alone in apartment buildings where you aren't a tenant.
   *Make lockpicks more expensive, harder to get, and easier to lose.
   *Add NPCs inside some of the V/NPC apartments that go aggro when people open their doors.
   *Give an automatic crimflag for breaking into an apartment that someone has logged out in.
   *Give players a warning when they're about to enter an apartment that someone else has logged out in: "You open the door.  It appears someone is inside!"
   *If a burglar breaks into your PC's apartment while they are logged out inside, send the burglar's description to that player next time they log in.

Sounds pretty awesome to me, except for the last point... if the burglar was cloaked / masked, their description should not be automatically handed out in my opinion.

[Qeynos]

However, I find burglary to not be broken, it's the players that are abusing it's potential.

It's not so much abuse, really. It's the simple fact that there's probably something like a 1:10 ratio of burglars to apartments, so it's no wonder that the citizens of Allanak and Tuluk find their homes robbed at alarming frequency. There's nothing else for burglars to do (don't give me the "you can do other things than burgle!", that's no argument) and no other guild has to operate on such a premise. If pickpockets could only steal from PCs or assassins could only attempt to backstab PCs, people would probably feel just as badly about those guilds (or, more likely, noone would ever play them) but they have more NPCs available than they can ever manage to rob or shank.

There's a vast number of places in the cities, especially in Allanak, that are vNPC homes with locked doors but absolutely nothing in them. For burglary to function as it does now without needing a major overhaul or a merge with another guild, the only solution that would lessen or prevent the guild's tendency to invalidate player housing entirely would be to give them other things to rob. Ever notice how, after a few days of uptime, every other door to empty_house_148 in Allanak is open? That's because someone practiced picking them. If there was something in there, they would probably be less inclined to then go directly around the corner and rob a PC apartment.

More could (and should) be done, of course. As near as I can tell, picking a lock triggers no code of any kind other than the skill check to see if the attempt was succesful. It seems that neither the crime code nor nearby NPCs factor in at all, and this is likely what allows burglars to go bananas and leave entire streets or hallways of open doors behind them. Furthermore, even if a burglar breaks into an apartment and steals three kalans, the next ten PCs who happen by are free to stroll in and nick the rest of your shit, and typically do so. How about having a guard or the landlord himself walk up and down the hallway twice a day, keeping an eye out for burglars -and- locking any open doors.

[jriley]

Sephiroto, sorry that you are frustrated Sir, and glad that you could speak up.  Talking about something like this is the first step in fostering positive change, and you were brave to come forward.

After pouring over the apartments/burglary posts I got to thinking about why we have such a problem with it in Armageddon.  I see the apartments/burglary thing is a beast that feeds itself.  Players want a place to put their stuff and burglars look for valuables to steal.  Simple enough, right?  Well, unlike other fantasy games, Armageddon doesn't have a system of balances to keep burglary in check.  Essentially, everything is open game.  This in itself is very unrealistic and it is all because there is a lack of VNPC witnessing to peg thieves.

Unlike other games, however, Armageddon is meant to have an intensely high rate of crime.  Probably higher than what we as players currently experience.

Because of the system in Oblivion, players generally only steal items from public locations or private property in a much more realistic manner, else they suffer the consequences.  If they need the item specifically, if they have a way to fence them off for cash, or out of greed for personal possession of something valuable then they may make all attempts to take the item.  Because of this, all but the most poor of thieves leave the candle sticks, forks, wine bottles, chairs, etc., where they belong.  Because of this system the way items are stolen is much more realistic.  You're still welcome to steal (if you can get away with it) and you're good to deal these items behind the scenes, but other folks know the items are hot.

You make a good point here.  So much burglarly is committed in game not people who are interested in the loot that they steal, but in the cash that it represents.  Some of them don't even need the cash, they're just bored and they're playing a character who isn't good at much except ripping people off.  It's semi-random theft.  What does it contribute to the plot?

It's kind of like a flood gate.  Someone apps a burglar.  It's tough* to twink your skills, tough to get ahold of the right tools....and then all of the sudden they have this impressive ability to steal things.  The flood gates are open.

Because Armageddon cannot fully take into account VNCP population as witnesses to crime in public or near private quarters I think that a system similar to that used in Oblivion and similar games would be worth developing. 

But that's just the thing, Sir.  Crime is ridiculously easy in real life.  The game would be unrealistic if crime were not easy.  Getting a black-belt in karate is difficult.  Stealing a car is easy.
Armeggedon is meant to have a power-base of self-made criminals living along-side the power-base of inherited wealth living along-side of the power-base of successful mercenaries and war-lords. 

I can understand your frustration, however and even though I don't think that the current system is broken I do think that changing things a bit might not hurt.

So what are the root causes of the current situation?  One problem is that there is no gradient system to PC on PC apartment burglaries.  By the time that a PC burglar can crack one apartment, it won't be long until his skills are twinked up to the point where he can rob any apartment.  If there were some kind of gradient, like a series of progressive challenges, then eventually PC burglars would get tired of ripping off Joe Hunter in his crappy little apartment and maybe take a shot at robbing John Crafter in his slightly-better (more secure) apartment.  Think of this in the same way that hunters face a gradient system -- when you're new you start off beating up jozhals.  After a while, you're buff enough that you can go after bigger game and so you start to leave jozhals alone.

Also, it might help you to begin thinking of apartment robbery as another form of rent.  You may pay about 500 coins per month for your apartment.  You might loose another 500 coins a month to burglary.  Once you start to think of it that way, you just realize that your net effective rent is like 1,000 per month.  That may seem like a lot but your character should probably have roommates.  Having more people around might help a bit with the security situation as well.

An additional suggestion is to try leaving a bit of money in your apartment?  The Nenyuk banking system is unrealistically efficient, cheap and convenient which causes players to over-rely on it.  Maybe if you left a couple of hundred coins in your apartment, a PC burglar would just steal the cash and leave the rest of the stuff.  Then again, maybe not but its worth a shot.

Speaking to the problem, I have a several suggestions that when combined offer a solution:
- a failed sneak past the landlord = crimflag. 
- classes with the ability to burgle require karma.
- staff ratified code of conduct for the few who still can't figure it out.

Yeah, none of those ideas are fantastic, but none of them are really that bad either.
As far as a code of conduct goes, I have thought of a suggestion for burglars to make things better on everyone.  If you're raiding somebodies house, try not to steal items that are rare or difficult to acquire if you just plan on pawning them for the cash.  Instead, steal a few valuable but easy to acquire items.  Think about it -- if a burglar broke into my real-life apartment, he'd be much more likely to boost my Xbox than my picture of my deceased grandmother.

Arm is almost 20 years old, and almost nothing has been done with the burglar class; I say it's high time to throw them a bone and improve things for burglars AND their victims.

Increase the number of apartments by ten-fold, so Allanak and Tuluk each have about 300-400 apartments in them.  Set it up so that every Wednesday morning, every vacant apartment has a 75% chance of being rented out to a V/NPC for that week.  (Or, if that's too complicated, simply add ~350 apartments to each city that are permanently leased by V/NPCs)  In V/NPC leased apartments, have a random chance of basic loot spawn, and maybe a rare chance for some slightly-more-valuable loot spawn, and let the burglars go to town.  Assuming a dynamic leasing structure, players will be protected by basic statistical odds and burglars will finally be able to survive off NPCs in the same way warriors, rangers, assassins, pickpockets, and merchants have been able to for the last 10 years.

To compensate for a sudden abundance of targets, make burglary slightly more challenging:
    *Add soldiers that patrol apartments, and hand out crimflags for things like being alone in apartment buildings where you aren't a tenant.
    *Add NPCs inside some of the V/NPC apartments that go aggro when people open their doors.

I like most of your ideas.  I quoted the ones that I like. 

I like Qzzrbl's suggestion, and it could work if encumbrance affected stealth more drastically.  I don't care how good you are at sneaking about, it's going to be hard to move unnoticed when you are carrying your own weight in goods, or hide when you're carrying a table.

I don't agree with this at all.  There are a hundred ways to get into an apartment unnoticed, only a few of them relying extensively on stealth.  Stealth-based burglary is the only coded way of burglary, so that's the one that players have to use even if it doesn't always seem realistic, until such time as the coders are able to implement other forms of burglary, if ever. 

Once upon a time, there was a mythological union. They had a crew of burglars, a few thugs, and a couple of extortionists. Burglars would burglarize according to the needs of the organization. The thugs would ensure that the burglars were kept in line and didn't take from people who paid up. The extortionists would visit tenants and let them know that for a small monthly fee, their apartment would be sufficiently protected from the local burglar's union. Anyone who refused was fair game. Anyone who paid was protected. And any burglar who refused to join the union had a chat with the organization's thugs.

...

...

It was a beautiful symbiosis. I don't know why it doesn't happen anymore.

I like that.  I've tried to set up a couple of those.  You run into problems.  Chief among this is the lack of players.  Players have gotten frustrated with playing criminals, so typically you don't see too many of them trying at the same time.  At any given time you may have only six people actively trying to play criminals, and three of them may be in a different city or from socio-econimic strata that are different enough that will prohibit me from working with them.  Then of the two guys that are left, how do you find them?  You can't advertise openly.  Play times may not overlap at all.  And skill sets may not really compliment each other.  What do three pick-pockets really need each other for anyway?  As I've pointed out in the past, burglars and pick-pockets often don't generate a lot of useful role-play because they can accomplish jobs more effectively alone than you can with a partner.  In the world of Zalanthan burglary, you don't need one guy to hold the ladder while you scramble up to a roof top, because the code-base and physics engine don't support this. 
Then, it's easy to get frustrated with the lack of skill on the part of people playing gangsters.  Your average fifteen year old nerd from Nebraska seems to understand how to play a mercenary or a hunter, but they don't do well when they try to play mobsters.  If you're trying to band a group of four criminals together in Allanak, you're working with noobs. 
You're not allowed to advertise out of game.  You're not allowed to use character family members.  The real life mafias are typically recruited from within extended families or inside of prisons.  Game rules make it somewhat difficult to have ten brothers in a family all played by PCs.  You won't meet other criminal PCs in prison.
What's worse, the staff seem to have somewhat of a passive/aggressive attitude towards criminal characters.  While they won't usually slap you too hard for over-hunting, over-sparring or over-crafting, if they see you going a little overboard with theft (in the way that a rising crime syndicate would on the crest of a crime wave) you will get smacked. 
PC Templars and militia are often bored and will make life miserable for you even though the players mean well.  Your victims will whine incessantly and insist that you're a twink if you possibly got away with stealing from them (q.v.).
So, those are a few of the reasons why even the Guild isn't really the Guild.



Back on the original topic though, I think that players who have goods that they really don't want stolen should invest in reasonable security.  Players should not expect to leave a prized possession in one of the more basic apartments in a bad neighborhood and just assume that other players won't be able to get to it.  Rather, it's better to view apartments as highly vulnerable and to only keep items in unguarded apartments that are viewed as disposable. 


Ultimately it's a harsh world and I would rather see more theft, not less.  I hope that we can all collaborate to make sure that theft and crime contribute to plot rather than frustrate players.



*Well, I mean it takes a few days or weeks.  Tough compared to reaching level 5 on world of warcraft.

[valeria]

I don't think this is really a problem.  Though I like the idea of having more VNPC apartments for fun and exploration.

I've had my apartments broken into several times.  The vast majority of the times, I will notice one or two things missing.  Usually small, portable items, such as food, water, jewelry, or clothing.  One or two times, I have returned to find my apartment 'trashed' with a few drop desced items.  And still with plenty left in my apartment.  I have, however, prowled open-doored apartments as a tenant of a building and moved a large item or two from 'theirs' into 'mine' if it made sense for the character.

I return to my apartments regularly, and re-lock my doors.  I have never had this issue of people breaking in and stealing everything out of my character's apartment, including the furniture.  I'm starting to think it's a myth to scare small children.

Conversely, I've played a burglar through several days played.  No, I did not just burgle.  I tend to be social, rather than code-focused, so she probably didn't advance as fast as people who really, really want to branch sneak.  I had her for three months.  I had a hell of a time finding picks.  I had a hell of a time getting into apartments.  I found the burglar guild to be challenging and fun. 

The people that are going to twink out burglars are going to do it anyway.  I suspect that making burglars even more difficulty isn't going to change the experience for anyone but the responsible players of burglars.

To kick a dead horse a little, this has come up in the past.  And I agree with people who express that it doesn't make a whole lot of sense for apartment building owners or the runners of the city-states to care about whether or not some stuff goes missing from your apartment.

[FightClub]

Why fix what isn't broken? Burglars are just a crappy class to play, want to invoke hardship upon your character for no reason? Be a burglar, want to play hardcore mode? Celf Burglar.

[Synthesis]

Pickpockets are kept in check because they're generally a pretty boring class to play, not because of any fear of the crime code. The crime code is so simple that it took me maybe 1-2 characters to figure it out.  The only times afterward that I've been caught by it have been because I was impatient or wasn't paying attention.

[nihilist]

There are responsible players out there.

The burglar class is very difficult to play because there is not a lot that you can "do" based on the limited skills. Thinking about it now, the combination of sneak, hide, and listen might provide for a very viable spy role, though I don't know how sustainable that would be. Also, as people have mentioned, there are no NPC apartments that respawn objects that can be stolen. Assassins have NPC's to practice backstab on. Pickpockets have NPC's that respawn sids that can be nicked. If you want to play a career criminal, picking either of those two classes would be an easier option for you. If you just want to roleplay with other PC's and plan on joining a clan, then picking burglar (or any other guild for that matter) should be fine. IMHO, choosing to be an "indie burglar" is the same as suicide/storing.

[Dar]

Remove pick skill from assassins and make burglars excel in explosives instead, the viability of burglars spikes right up.

[jhunter]

The only thing that I think is broken is that there aren't enough places that can codedly be broken into by burglars that don't belong to pcs. I think that there should be a shit ton more locations, some of them inhabited by different npcs, at different times, with their own different schedules, etc. Maybe even, on occasion, the place might currently be inhabited by a veteran soldier that can and will whoop the ass of anyone that it spots that doesn't belong inside their place. Make them reset at random times, reboots, etc. Each location would randomly contain a different set each time. Something along the lines of what someone else already suggested. It's mostly, as someone else said, a problem with the burglars to potential victims (being solely pcs) ratio.

[Lizzie]

Actually, I'm guessing that every noble estate and GMH has locked doors, behind which the GMH family PC or noble family PCs would love to peek. I know when I played one, it made for some fun RP with my lockpicking underlings, giving them the opportunity to practice, plus the opportunity to do something naughty (breaking in to the GMH dead guy's bedroom? I mean c'mon how cool is that?), under a semi-controlled circumstance (wish all "me and my underling wanna see if my dead cousin hid any bodies in the closet, so we're gonna try and bust into the room now" followed by the sudden echo of footsteps coming down the hall...TOTALLY AWESOME).

No, that's not a vague subtle hint on what a burglar might find out IC. It's a blatant right out in the open opportunity. Now, HOW you go about discovering which PC wants to know about their dead cousin's bedroom, or which noble needs to find out what's in that box in the estate's kitchen cabinet, and HOW to decide which noble's gonna let you do that and which one's gonna slice your head off for daring to suggest such a thing..and HOW to decide how to encourage the noble to come up with the idea himself and think that you might be the one to help him out...that's what you gotta find out IC.

But there's your answer on "how to fix burglary." You fix it, by placing your character in a position where he can be useful to people who need his services.

[Qeynos]

That's an absurdly limited venue, and it may not be available at all depending on the time and place. It doesn't fix anything at all, it just suggests something that might be possible twice a year.

[jriley]

Actually, I'm guessing that every noble estate and GMH has locked doors, behind which the GMH family PC or noble family PCs would love to peek. I know when I played one, it made for some fun RP with my lockpicking underlings, giving them the opportunity to practice, plus the opportunity to do something naughty (breaking in to the GMH dead guy's bedroom? I mean c'mon how cool is that?), under a semi-controlled circumstance (wish all "me and my underling wanna see if my dead cousin hid any bodies in the closet, so we're gonna try and bust into the room now" followed by the sudden echo of footsteps coming down the hall...TOTALLY AWESOME).

No, that's not a vague subtle hint on what a burglar might find out IC. It's a blatant right out in the open opportunity. Now, HOW you go about discovering which PC wants to know about their dead cousin's bedroom, or which noble needs to find out what's in that box in the estate's kitchen cabinet, and HOW to decide which noble's gonna let you do that and which one's gonna slice your head off for daring to suggest such a thing..and HOW to decide how to encourage the noble to come up with the idea himself and think that you might be the one to help him out...that's what you gotta find out IC.

But there's your answer on "how to fix burglary." You fix it, by placing your character in a position where he can be useful to people who need his services.

You know?  That's cool.  I'm not sure that it totally fixes burglary but it's certainly a vector for improvement.  

One potential barrier to this are that there are no really good ways to advertise your skills as a burglar.

If you want to raid, you advertise yourself as scout (using a warrior or a ranger) and it's not hard for people to then figure out that a good scout probably has most of the abilities that you need to raid.  From there it's just a matter of chatting with the guy and finding out what his sense of ethics are, who his loyalty is to and if he's got the balls for the job.  Then you find a way to bend him to your will.

If you want to play a hit man, you advertise yourself as a soldier (using an assassin) and then if someone gets the idea that you're able to conduct stealthy military operations, they figure that you might work out for an assassin job.  From there it's just a matter of chatting with the guy and finding out what his sense of ethics are, who his loyalty is to and if he's got the balls for the job.  Then you find a way to bend him to your will.

If you want to play a pick-pocket, you advertise yourself as a street magician (or a bard or a street tough) and then if someone gets the idea that you're able to move your hands faster than the eye can see, they figure you could probably work as a pick-pocket.  From there it's just a matter of chatting with the guy and finding out what his sense of ethics are, who his loyalty is to and if he's got the balls for the job.  Then you find a way to bend him to your will.

But a burglar?  I can't think of any bona fide way to advertise your skills.  It would be nice if the coders could implement a set of legitamate jobs that would require a burglar's touch in order to create a talent pool from which gangsters and crime lords could recruit people for more delicate work.  

I actually have an idea for this -- I think that burglars should have the ability to install (crude yet) effective medieval home security systems (like locks or traps) that PCs could have installed on your apartment.  Then burglars could advertise themselves as a locksmith.  Wealthier and more-powerful PCs could then hire these guys to go to work for them, creating a talent pool of legitamate workers.  This would have the added bonus of deterring new and amateur burglars from fucking with the homes of the rich and powerful, and it would fit the game setting pretty well.  These traps might require a burglars touch in order to be re-armed if they were set off, or maintenance work, ensuring that burglars would periodically have paid work to do.

I've got a few more ideas, but I think that this one has potential.

[Lizzie]

What I recall, is that you get into a clan NOT because you're a burglar with lockpick on your skills list, but because you -also- have exactly the right skills, both coded and social, to be someone's Aide/Assistant. You start there. You work yourself into a position of trust. Once you have earned their trust, and have proven that you are worth having as an Aide/Assistant, you then let them know - quietly, away from prying ears, that there are "other" things you can help them with if they ever have the need.

That's where it all starts. Lockpicking is only one skill among many that a burglar guild is good at. Combining all the OTHER Skills that burglar is good at, makes them the single most useful city-based character in the game. They are to cities what rangers are to the wastes. Lockpicking is not the reason for that. The variety of skills combined is the reason for that. FOcusing solely on lockpicking as the reason to pick a burglar guild, to me, is a ridiculous waste of a guild choice. Yes, it is the "unique" skill that makes a burglar not something else. But if you consider it more a utility skill and less of a primary skill, you'll find playing a burglar MUCH more rewarding, and you'll probably get much more out of actually using the lockpick skill than if you only played your burglar as a lockpicker.

[Armaddict]

That's where it all starts. Lockpicking is only one skill among many that a burglar guild is good at. Combining all the OTHER Skills that burglar is good at, makes them the single most useful city-based character in the game. They are to cities what rangers are to the wastes. Lockpicking is not the reason for that.

This.  The moment you think a burglar -has- to pick locks to make use of the class, you've just wandered from the path where burglars are absolutely amazing.

[jhunter]

That's where it all starts. Lockpicking is only one skill among many that a burglar guild is good at. Combining all the OTHER Skills that burglar is good at, makes them the single most useful city-based character in the game. They are to cities what rangers are to the wastes. Lockpicking is not the reason for that.

This.  The moment you think a burglar -has- to pick locks to make use of the class, you've just wandered from the path where burglars are absolutely amazing.

Yep. I don't think I've ever burglarized anything with the burglar class. I know I've said it before but I use the class to make a sort of all-purpose criminal.

[spawnloser]

Yep. I don't think I've ever burglarized anything with the burglar class. I know I've said it before but I use the class to make a sort of all-purpose criminal.

My ONLY burglar ever, well-branched too actually, was a strange nut.  I only burgled a few places, and the sad thing was that I did it mostly by stealing keys.  I used 'steal' extensively, too.  My character was something of a prankster and that was how I pulled the pranks.  Burglars don't need to burgle.  Seriously.

I agree with the general sentiment that the burglar class is something of a 'jack of all trades criminal' (to borrow another's phrase), but I prefer playing other sorts of criminals since.  Burglary just never sat right with me as a character to play myself.

[jriley]

My ONLY burglar ever, well-branched too actually, was a strange nut.  I only burgled a few places, and the sad thing was that I did it mostly by stealing keys.  I used 'steal' extensively, too.  My character was something of a prankster and that was how I pulled the pranks.  Burglars don't need to burgle.  Seriously.

I agree with the general sentiment that the burglar class is something of a 'jack of all trades criminal' (to borrow another's phrase), but I prefer playing other sorts of criminals since.  Burglary just never sat right with me as a character to play myself.

Yep. I don't think I've ever burglarized anything with the burglar class. I know I've said it before but I use the class to make a sort of all-purpose criminal.

This.  The moment you think a burglar -has- to pick locks to make use of the class, you've just wandered from the path where burglars are absolutely amazing.

What I recall, is that you get into a clan NOT because you're a burglar with lockpick on your skills list, but because you -also- have exactly the right skills, both coded and social, to be someone's Aide/Assistant. You start there....
...
...
...

This is a good point that you guys have made, four different ways.

I think there is some confusion as to what the actual topic of discussion is, here.  After all, the world burglar means about three different things in our game:

• Role Burglar -- which is a character, usually a PC, that attempts to or specializes in beating the security of residences.
• Class Burglar -- the burglar game class, many of whom  do not work in the burglar role or never actually burglarize anything.
• Burglary -- sneaking into someone's house and stealing their stuff.  Not all PCs who do this are necessisarly trying to play the role of a dedicated burglar, nor are they exclusively of the class burglar

So I think what you guys are saying is that the class burglar is balanced fine for the game.  I'm tempted to agree with this, although it is somewhat of a controvertial statement that other players might not agree with.

What is for sure is that a new player almost definitely has the three terms pretty well jumbled up in his head into one concept. 

The advice that you guys have included with your point is fantastic advice to a senior player who is having trouble finding something fun to do with the burglar class PC.  New players will not only lack the maturity or the skills to implement your advice, they may very well get stuck with the distinction between the three different meanings of the word burglar.  Your advice will not deter them from conducting random theft. 

Personally, I believe that most misbehavior on the part of players is the result of boredom.  And so I think that a new player would be terribly bored if he tried to play the burglar class in the way that you've described. 

This process is frustrated by the fact that there is really no role-models for people who aspire to play a burglar.  After all, when players want to learn warrior role-play, they can join the Byn, and there they will learn to play the ruff-and-tumble style of mercenaries that is the commonest form of warrior on Zalanthas.  After that, they're free to branch out and improvise in a hundred different directions, benefiting from their experience watching half a dozen really well-roleplayed warriors.  Traders, spies, craftsmen, militia and guards all get similar experience from other respective clans.

But this just flat out does not exist for the role burglar.  There is no oral tradition in place handed down through the generations of players on what a good role burglar does, how he acts, and what his methods are.  Any player taking a crack at this is likely to be figuring it out for himself, and working alone on this.  The mentoring system that I proposed has not been adopted. 

On top of this the game is stuck in a cycle whereby people attempting role burglar are always going to be noobs.  Think about it -- pretty much every veteran player who has weighed in on this post has stated or implied that class burglar is much funner if you are not attempting to play role burglar.  Therefore, the only people that are attempting to play role-burglar are players who have not yet developed the maturity that we have come to expect from senior players.  Even on the rare occaisions that they do interact with other players, they will not do so in a way that inspires confidence on the part of the other players.

Junior players are often frustrated when their characters are insta-slagged by spellcasters, junior players are also frustrated when their PC comes home from from a hard day's work to find that their apartment has been looted in the style of an amateur.  This frustration comes because, even though there is a lot of role-play and hard work on the part of the attacker, both the role-play and hard work are invisible to the victim, imparting them with little satisfaction as well as a subconcious suspicion that the offending player is not attempting to role-play and is dishonestly griefing the victim.

For this cycle to change, we must either supply constructive activities for the role-burglar to undertake (such as the locksmith idea, q.v.) or else implement a coaching system whereby junior players are allowed to app characters along-side senior players, for the sole purpose of training and knowledge-transfer.

[Grey Area]

Maybe an easy 'fix', then, would be simply changing the name of the guild from 'burglar' to something more descriptive of the pretty wide range of activities the class can actually take on.

My leader PCs always try to keep at least one burglar on the payroll, but almost never for actual burglary.

[solera]

Maybe an easy 'fix', then, would be simply changing the name of the guild from 'burglar' to something more descriptive of the pretty wide range of activities the class can actually take on.

My leader PCs always try to keep at least one burglar on the payroll, but almost never for actual burglary.

Just curious.  How do your PC's know you have a burglar.  What do they say for their jpb interview?

[Thunkkin]

There are many subtle ways to let your employer know.  It's not that tricky.

My favorite, for any class with a sneaky ability or two, is to take the direct, non-subtle approach and save everyone time.

Example #1:
say (scratching his nose) Well, I like shoveling poop and dusting flat surfaces.

contact potential.employer

psi I can also slit a man's throat faster than he can blink.

cease contact

emote smiles cheerfully.


Example #2:
say (scratching his nose) Well, I like shoveling poop and dusting flat surfaces.

contact potential.employer

psi I've also jimmied a lock or two in my day.  Never had trouble with the law, but if you need help with security or getting something stolen from you back from someone else's apartment, I'm your man.

cease contact

emote smiles cheerfully.


The chances of your potential employer throwing his or hands in the air and shrieking, "Oh my Highlawd, a no good thieving criminal of the lowest saaawt!" are slim.

[KnownUnknown]

Not broken. Plenty, PLENTY of other things to steal from, then just apartments.

I have had burglers pickpocket npc merchants, break into merchant house compounds (that's the real money, and the real rush people) And one day I shall rob some noble house of all it's expensive stuff. When I next roll a burgler. Whenever that might be.

I consider apartments "Practice" That stuff is for noobs

[jriley]

Not broken. Plenty, PLENTY of other things to steal from, then just apartments.

I have had burglers pickpocket npc merchants, break into merchant house compounds (that's the real money, and the real rush people) And one day I shall rob some noble house of all it's expensive stuff. When I next roll a burgler. Whenever that might be.

I consider apartments "Practice" That stuff is for noobs

Probably true.  But now you've touched on something else.

I think that the entire situation would be improved if the staff were just a lil' friendlier about providing Minor RPT support for planned heists.

The two or three times that I've tried to test the waters about this, I've received sarcastic replies that indicated I'd need to fill out about twelve pages of paperwork for the idea even to be considered.  I think that they mean well, but they are showing the classical symptoms of someone who is overworked. 

Anyways, more staff support for this sort of stuff would be a great way to entice mid to senior level burglars away from just spam-robbing apartments out of boredom. 

[Delstro]

Everytime I play in a merchant/noble house as an aide/fancy type, I always expect to be held at knife point and then 'escorted' into my compound. I think I will be forced to fill a bag with some items, then 'escorted' back out. Nothing dangerous, if I play along.

As a merchant type, I have also been hit by burglars.

They ask for an item in the warehouse and I leave them in the office/viewing area. They sneak out, pocket an item or two, and then return and I am never aware.

[Riev]

Everytime I play in a merchant/noble house as an aide/fancy type, I always expect to be held at knife point and then 'escorted' into my compound. I think I will be forced to fill a bag with some items, then 'escorted' back out. Nothing dangerous, if I play along.

In the words of the Immortal Shal.

Way to ruin my plotline, Jerk.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

If you are dragging something that you can not lift off of the ground completely, the code appends the item you are carrying to your walking message and your standing message.

The man walks west, dragging an elven body behind him.

The man stands here
-he is carrying an elven body.

Change this feature to include anything that shows up currently as heavy. So, when you see this:

The man stands here.
-he is carrying a large bag.

...you would also see this...

The man walks west, burdened by a large bag.

Note that he is burdened by it, not dragging it, but the visual and informative information is still conveyed to the casual watcher. It is yet another message to indicate possession of something that realistically, you'd notice even in passing.