City-elf playability changes?

[Qzzrbl]

There is no group of people who are simply born better runners then others.

Except for Desert Elves.

[Qeynos]

I've been wondering about this. I read some older threads where people talked about city elves and why people don't play them much, and the general consensus seemed to be that the race is just really unattractive from a coded perspective. It appears to me that the elven race sacrifices the two most important combat stats in exchange for the other two seemingly less valuable, to the point where an ordinary city elf warrior is just straight up worse than one of any other given race. Then tack on the inability to ride, the obscene racism, the severely limited choice of clans, and whatever other disadvantages they suffer. Since far more players choose combat type characters than non-combat, and with the elven race being very unattractive to them, this may in turn deter players of non-combat characters from choosing the race due to the prohibitively small number of potential associates, even though the race is perfectly fine for rogue classes, magickers and merchants. Is this theory all wrong?

An unfortunate trend here seems to be the practice of digging up completely anecdotal evidence to dispute an argument. So there were some badass elven warriors called Kija and Sharak; how many others have there been? I've never heard of any, and I certainly haven't ever seen any myself. Some of these threads had some seemingly sound arguments but were typically countered with retorts along the lines of "well, Sharak was really badass, so you're just wrong". Surely a diligent player of a long-lived character will succeed no matter what race or guild they choose. If the richest character in the history of a game was a half-giant merchant, that doesn't mean half-giants are excellent merchants. Fortunately, they aren't meant to be. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem right to me that elves should be so poor fighters that barely anyone plays them. Plenty of people play dwarves, and it's not as if that race has anything at all going for it except for hefty boosts to the "right" stats.

Would making the elven race more appealing to aspiring warriors possibly strengthen the potential for a racial society to build up? I mean, dwarves have it the other way around: great stats, no culture whatsoever, and there's quite a lot of them. Elves have excellent potential for culture in both cities, but seemingly poor stats, and hardly anyone plays them. Maybe I'm missing a piece of this puzzle?

[Malifaxis]

People who don't play elves tend to fall into one of two categories:  either they understand the elven race mindset and they don't like it, or they don't understand the elven race mindset and don't have the time to learn.

Those who learn the elven mindset and love it tend to be habitual elven players, myself included.  Do I only play elves?  No.  I dabble in other races, I enjoy them, but I tend to have more fun playing elves, so that's what I stick with.  I think this is true for a great many players on both sides of the fence.

Then you have the people who don't care about the mindset, or learning it, and just want to be the biggest dick on the block.  Those people tend to go with dwarves.  Why?  Because dwarves are hardasses, and everyone knows it.  Why don't they go with half giants or muls?  Commonly this is because staff understands that they're all about 'winning the game.'  This is a major deterrent to karma gain.

The reason why Sharak and Kija ended up being such hardasses was because of rigorous training and excellent player knowledge.  They understood that the elven strength is not in the arms, but in the legs.  When the going gets rough, you fucking haul ass out of there and come back with homies, or you lurk and you wait for the perfect moment.  Humans can kick in a door and clean house, because they're strong, smart, and have the hitpoints to back up a long fight.  Dwarves can do this as well.  An elf has to use the environment and natural cunning to prevail, which is as it should be.  Elves should be thinkers more than fighters... that's how they've survived this long.

If you're playing an elf, count on not toe-to-toe'ing a damn thing for a while.  Even as a warrior, it takes patience and persistence to become a real tough bastard.

Oh... and by the way, there have been TONS of badass elves.  The difference is that elven players that have badass PCs realize that the fewer people who know about them, the fewer people will come after them.  There are elves around all the time that can give both Kija and Sharak a run for their money, or even slap them around like a little bitch, but they don't advertise it.  This, as well, is the elven way.

[Synthesis]

I had a long rant written up, but I decided to pare it down to this:

Since this thread is already long on rants and short on suggestions, I guess I'll offer some constructive fixes:

1) Every city-elf created must be clanned.  No more solo city-elves.  You roll one, you are in the Jaxa Pah or the Akai S'jirr, period.

2) All city-elves get city hide and sneak to (advanced).

3) City-elves gain the same ability to run in the desert that desert-elves get, but remain limited by lower total stamina, the lack of desert stealth, and the inability to choose the ranger class.

[X-D]

What Mali said.

Also

It appears to me that the elven race sacrifices the two most important combat stats in exchange for the other two seemingly less valuable, to the point where an ordinary city elf warrior is just straight up worse than one of any other given race.

Many people think that, they are, in fact, 100% wrong.

I was the player of Tarq, My PC trained Sharak, And LONG before Sharak became special evil dude, he could wipe floor against pretty much anything in the game, including Meks.

Most people are simply not flexible enough to play to strengths and instead go with a certain template. That template might work great with dwarves and humans, but it will totally suck ass with elves.

[Dar]

I had a long rant written up, but I decided to pare it down to this:

Since this thread is already long on rants and short on suggestions, I guess I'll offer some constructive fixes:

1) Every city-elf created must be clanned.  No more solo city-elves.  You roll one, you are in the Jaxa Pah or the Akai S'jirr, period.

2) All city-elves get city hide and sneak to (advanced).

3) City-elves gain the same ability to run in the desert that desert-elves get, but remain limited by lower total stamina, the lack of desert stealth, and the inability to choose the ranger class.

Not needed at 'all'. Celves are fine the way they are. They're just different.

[Synthesis]

So different hardly anyone plays them.

Right, that's just fine. 

[Armaddict]

I had a long rant written up, but I decided to pare it down to this:

Since this thread is already long on rants and short on suggestions, I guess I'll offer some constructive fixes:

1) Every city-elf created must be clanned.  No more solo city-elves.  You roll one, you are in the Jaxa Pah or the Akai S'jirr, period.

2) All city-elves get city hide and sneak to (advanced).

3) City-elves gain the same ability to run in the desert that desert-elves get, but remain limited by lower total stamina, the lack of desert stealth, and the inability to choose the ranger class.

Yeah.  That would totally fix the stigma people were complaining about.  Give them -all- hide and sneak.

If people made city elves into mini-versions of desert-elves, just as a 0 karma way to make some sort of whatever the hell this would be, I'd be very sad.  I likely wouldn't play this race anymore.

[Synthesis]

What's the point of giving every city-elf the steal skill, without sneak and hide?

In case you never played with it, steal doesn't work worth a shit (even with awesome agility) if you don't have the hide skill to go along with it.

It's basically a giant Ha Ha! newbie trap.

[Armaddict]

What's the point of giving every city-elf the steal skill, without sneak and hide?

In case you never played with it, steal doesn't work worth a shit (even with awesome agility) if you don't have the hide skill to go along with it.

It's basically a giant Ha Ha! newbie trap.

Using it wrong.

[Synthesis]

Yeah, how about you go ahead and assume I'm not a newbie? 

[Armaddict]

I refuse.  Then I would lose my GDB epeen.

No, but seriously?  I've found some very nice ways to use city elf steal.  It's just important to realize that it's not when -you- want to do it, it's along the lines of the elven mentality.  Opportunity knocks, I open the door, I don't open the door and expect opportunity to rush in.

[titansfan]

I gotta go ahead and agree with Synthesis' change ideas...but I would suggest making them a 1 karma class. Makes them even in their own unique way with desert elves. And city elven culture is very hard to play correctly so I only think it's proper that atleast 1 karma point is needed to play them.

[Qzzrbl]

Elves are supposed to be thiefy sum'bitches.

That's why they get the skill.

I've seen more than a few instances of someone stealing something without hiding or sneaking.

If you don't like it, there are plenty of other races to choose from....

City elves don't need desert-elf running in the desert, 'cause -CITY- elves usually don't play around in the desert.

And I don't see why it would ever be required for c-elves to be in a clan or tribe.... It's easy enough to get in either c-elf tribe anyhow.

[Dar]

And I don't see why it would ever be required for c-elves to be in a clan or tribe.... It's easy enough to get in either c-elf tribe anyhow.

You actually have experience with this? Working "with" them and part of them are two different things. I dont think the tribes are ment to be easily recruited into.

[Qzzrbl]

And I don't see why it would ever be required for c-elves to be in a clan or tribe.... It's easy enough to get in either c-elf tribe anyhow.

You actually have experience with this? Working "with" them and part of them are two different things. I dont think the tribes are ment to be easily recruited into.

I remember reading somewhere is that all you had to do was e-mail the staff ahead of time for docs and to give them a heads up.

Process is pretty much -just- like d-elf tribes.

But then again, I could be wrong.

I'll look for the link to the thread I read it from.

::Edit::

And, if by chance I'm wrong -- it definitely should be that way.

[spawnloser]

I played a burglar that was pretty good at 'steal' and never hid while stealing.  I was never arrested.  Take that for what you will.

[Synthesis]

I suspect that a burglar (a professional thief) has a higher cap on his steal skill than your average elf.  I know for a fact that my last long-lived non-thiefly city-elf used steal probably hundreds of times, with a success rate of maybe 10%, a "cover" rate of maybe 80%, and a critical fail rate of about 10% when stealing coins from inventory, which I'm assuming is the simplest task to accomplish (after significant usage, and given my knowledge of skill advancement, I can safely say that he was at his racial cap).  And when you're the only elf standing in the room, those covers might as well be fails, as far as the average player is concerned.  Contrary to this, with one of my assassin c-elves, the steal skill was functional and very useful almost immediately, without much practice, as long as I was hiding when I attempted the theft.  I think that's pretty clear evidence not only that hide makes a huge difference, but also that it makes a critical difference with regard to the skill's usefulness.

Giving them all sneak and hide would make sense, since elves are supposed to be a little shady, and as many folks have asserted, typically would use stealth and cunning to overcome their natural lack of strength and endurance.  Capping it at advanced would presumably allow it to be useful, but still vulnerable to scan and listen.

As far as desert-running is concerned:  the point isn't to make city-elves uber-rangers.  It's simply to allow them to travel from city to city a little bit easier.  Can you currently walk a city-elf from Allanak to Tuluk?  Probably, but it entails a level of risk that is absolutely unacceptable for anyone who knows what they're doing, which means that it's a functional, if not technical impossibility (even a maxed warrior would be taking an unacceptable risk, because if you -do- run out of stamina points, it's a trivial thing for even a relatively newbish ranger to shoot you to death while you're unable to move).  It would also allow them to do a bit of minor hunting in close proximity to the city.  They wouldn't be able to range far and wide in search of exotic game, but at least a 'nakki city-elf could go out and kill a scrab without having to stop and rest every five rooms.  (I'll grant that this is currently do-able around Tuluk, since Tuluk's zones are generally newb-friendly.)

And I'll amend the "all city-elves must be in a tribe" thing to make an exception for magickers.

But all in all, these changes are merely suggested as ways to increase the numbers of city-elves in the game.  I can beg all day for people to play more of them, but really...the only things that are going to change demographics over the long term are small to moderate increases in the "cool" factor of the race.

Currently, playing a city-elf is about as cool as (to paraphrase jstorrie, I believe) "pounding your dick with a hammer."

[Bilanthri]

I gotta go ahead and agree with Synthesis' change ideas...but I would suggest making them a 1 karma class. Makes them even in their own unique way with desert elves. And city elven culture is very hard to play correctly so I only think it's proper that atleast 1 karma point is needed to play them.

This would only serve to reduce the already low numbers of PC elves. Considering that elves are still one of the most populous races in the Known, this would be detrimental rather than beneficial to the over-all race.

[Qeynos]

Whatever the case and reason, it's pretty clear that city elves aren't attractive enough to players. The race is supposed to be the second most numerous in the world, yet it is by far the least common of all save for muls; that's with the possible exception of the rinth's east side, but they appear to have virtually no influence on the rest of the game and may as well not exist for everyone outside that area. At the same time, there appears to be no crippling shortage of desert elves, a race known for its generous perks and for being well-suited to their environment, rather than existing in spite of it, as seems to be the case with city elves.

One thing I'm wondering is the logic behind the fact that city elves can't ride. This is supposedly because they take pride in their ability to run and not need a mount, but since this is clearly not the case, why the hell would they feel this way? They place such a ridiculous restriction on themselves out of pride in an ability that they don't have? Who are they kidding?

I like the idea of giving them sneak and hide at a functional but not infallible level. Balance aside, it seems odd for a race based wholly around the concept of dishonesty, elusiveness, trickery and theft to not have developed a natural aptitude for inconspicuousness. Also, the ability to run better in the wilderness is a good idea. If they weren't able to, it makes no sense that they would refuse to ride. These two changes alone would certainly make me much more inclined, even tempted, to play one. Since I have no interest in the rinth and am really unimpressed with Tuluk, I would do so in Allanak, yet the only clan that appears to welcome elves there is the Byn, and there's just no way I would bother to do that with the way city elf travel currently works. I'm sure it's doable and has been done before (as three vets will soon smugly inform me) but I just wouldn't care to, as much for my own sake as for the rest of the clan. The prospect of leaving the city with a race that can't move more than fifteen rooms seems absurd, and the inability to leave the city is hugely deterring.

[Malifaxis]

The point isn't to entice players to play them by skill/stat/powerz boosts. 

The point is to get more players interested in playing the race because the race kicks ass and has an awesome amount of culture.

[brytta.leofa]

The point isn't to entice players to play them by skill/stat/powerz boosts. 

The point is to get more players interested in playing the race because the race kicks ass and has an awesome amount of culture.

You think that's gonna work?

(In fairness, all this talk about elves makes me want to play one. In unfairness, the chance of it being a mundane combatant is about 1%.)

[Qeynos]

The point is to get more players interested in playing the race because the race kicks ass and has an awesome amount of culture.

Well, it appears that people don't find the kickass racial culture enough of an encouragement to play it.

[brytta.leofa]

I do think that leaving city elves desert-nerfed is a decent way of keeping them inside the walls, where they belong.

[Dar]

The point isn't to entice players to play them by skill/stat/powerz boosts. 
The point is to get more players interested in playing the race because the race kicks ass and has an awesome amount of culture.

QFT.

And yes, it is going to work. People who are attracted to the skill/stat/powerz, can play dwarves . People who are interested for a unique and challenging role, will be attracted to Celves.