Discussion for Change to Storm/Darkness navigation

[jmordetsky]

Stuff

Your argument is pretty weak, X-D.  Sense of direction, sure, but that's using visual clues.  Where the sun is, light vs dark horizons, familiar terrain etc.  Dollars to donuts you take anyone and put them 100 miles under the ground in a pitch-black cavern and tell them to walk 'north' they'll be unable to, outside of blind luck (your sister included).

Humans do not have an innate sense of direction like migratory birds.  Some people are better than others, but this is not some innate sense.  Your ranger is still better situated than other guilds.  It's just not guaranteed.  How horrible.

The thing is that it *is* guaranteed. Let's be clear - the goal of the staff was that rangers remain able to navigate storms without trouble. Granted you will need gear, but won't take much to acquire and even if you absolutely cannot acquire it you'll only need for at most 3 rl days. And if you find otherwise and send staff a log - they'll even *gasp* fix it.

I can understand the frustration of playing a 25+ ranger and suddenly having fails - but it's just not going to last - so whats the big deal?

[Cutthroat]

Was there an IC reason for the ranger's flawless navigation abilities before this change? Why were they born with compasses in their heads and why didn't everyone else get one?

Why should all rangers, regardless of background (and considering I believe I've seen guild_rangers with widely varied backgrounds, from common soldiers to horticulturists picking guild_ranger, background is pretty important here) receive the flawless ability to travel through storms if they are unprepared for the trip? Why can't your seasoned traveler with perfect direction_sense ability be a special app with the right background now?

[Semper]

Of all the explorers in the world, you -never- hear them going without landmarks or some form of tool for navigation. It's just unheard of. Especially when everything looks the same, such as on the seas, an accurate compass or other form of checking location (sun, stars, etc) is required or you're just as stranded as a first-time sea-goer. Navigation is most definitely a skill, not some innate ability like magick.

Does everyone have the background to navigate? Nope, especially in a world where wandering a couple hundred cords outside the gates can have you killed. If you have the background to navigate expertly, you should more than likely be a ranger guild anyway. The addition of the skills to the subguild also reinforces that navigation is a skill.

One thing I'd like tweaked is walking in darkness. A person can be an expert navigator on the seas, but they're just the same as everyone else trying to walk in darkness. A separate skill for moving in pitch darkness (as well as fighting in darkness or blind) should go hand in hand, either together or by branching one from the other.

One other thing that I've noticed for the first time just yesterday. It happened when my character was walking in the -city- and couldn't even manage to get to a building two rooms away because the winds/storm was so fierce. Has that ever happened before this code went into place?

[evil_erdlu]

Google-fu!

You see it that way, I do not.

First, it has been my experiance IRL that you either have a sense of direction...or you do not. Research on the subject also shows the same thing. Some people can always know the direction they are facing even blindfolded, drugged, drunk, spun around, Some people do not.

http://www.headstrong.com.au/Blog/~B1-180/Brain_research_are_you_losing_your_sense_of_direction_or_losing_your_mind

Sense of direction is just like other senses. It detoriates with age and it can be sharpened, we read from this article even though it's not completely revelant.

http://www.expressnews.ualberta.ca/article.cfm?id=4481

Yey... it's not 100% revelant, but reading it we understand sense-of-direction is a learned quality which can be improved.

We just learned sense of direction which can be improved but in every person it is different. Then, there can be warriors with significantly better sense of direction. A warrior/<whatever subguild offers sense of direction> is plausible and logical.

Certain abilities, will point you in certain directions. And in a world where failing often means death, you are NOT going to pick something you cannot do well in...and if you do...well, odds are you would not make adulthood.

A warrior must be really competent in fighting. But he starts as a n00b. He improves and to stay alive, he just needs to pick his fights. He doesn't die simply because he doesn't start the game as an uberwarrior.

A ranger must be really competent in finding his direction. But he starts as a n00b. He improves and to stay alive, he just needs to pick his fights.(against the environment) He doesn't die simply because he doesn't start the game as an uberpathfinder.

A warrior/armorcrafter may make some nice armor. But he needs to have the best, he either finds Salarr or a master armorcrafter.

A warrior/<sense of direction guild> may wander around barely hindered. But he needs to travel too close to Red Storm, he finds a ranger.

[X-D]

Alright, First off, Never hear about them going without landmarks? Untrue, You maybe never have, I have. Hell Semper, I just got done reading two articles of people navigating in stormy seas without equipment...Bleh.

Also, Current and past research on human directional sense is, at best in Dispute. Researchers actually have found that Humans DO possess the same equipment as other animals like birds and such, in the brain and face. The point in Dispute is if we actually use them or not.

Oh, and more GOOGLE-FU

http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2000/07/05/148725.htm

http://www.jstor.org/pss/2744059
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetoception

And the warrior starts out crappy at fighting so a ranger must start out crappy at direction is LAME.

They BOTH start out crappy at fighting.

Direction is a prerequisite to even starting to become a ranger, it would be pretty maxxed in childhood or you would never get to the rangering part.

[Boggis]

Except, according to Morg, you don't start out as a ranger with crappy pathfinding and with a little gear augmentation you should be fine. This is all a storm in a teacup that any noob ranger could find their way out of.

[Fnord]

A ranger must be really competent in finding his direction. But he starts as a n00b. He improves and to stay alive, he just needs to pick his fights.(against the environment) He doesn't die simply because he doesn't start the game as an uberpathfinder.

Explain the mass amnesia as veteran Rangers suddenly forgot how.

[Boggis]

A blip that'll be forgotten about in a few days? Unless you're the grudge holding sort maybe.

[X-D]

Morg is not playing a ranger, I am, and the starting path finding sucks.

The gear sucks too. None of them are actually meant to help in a sandstorm, Bright light, Sure.

Many of you ask if people have been in sand/dust storms. Then pull up videos and crap, big deal, We deal with them many times a year where I live, and I tell you, the only Gear that will help you at all is a good pair of airtight goggles and a compass or GPS. And even with the goggles I cannot see any farther in a sand/dust storm then I can without them, it just hurts less. If polerized against red, that helps some, But I don't see polerized goggles arriving in Zalanthas any time soon.

[AmandaGreathouse]

I really just want to know what this magick suit that EVERY RANGER PC WILL NOW BE WEARING is.

I feel like a noob.

[Semper]

This seems like the same arguments as when the bug to parry was fixed...  

[Fnord]

A blip that'll be forgotten about in a few days? Unless you're the grudge holding sort maybe.

Heh, people on here know that I almost never complain. Hell, I barely play anymore.

However, this change threatens the verisimilitude of the game. The immersion.  I read in a previous post this happened to skinning too at some point, but I wasn't around or aware of that change. It's also less life threatening.

Really, imagine in a desert world if all of a sudden every hunter and tracker in the land (no matter how old or experienced) wakes up one day confused as hell in a storm?

For me it's not about sharing the skill, but how it was implemented. You're probably right, in a few weeks this will be old hat and everyone will be wearing sun slits. Yay. I maintain that if you're going to take a unique skill and broaden it's application, give the guild that originally had it an average of their other skills in that "new" skill. That way you introduce the change without kicking immersion in the stones.

[evil_erdlu]

http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2000/07/05/148725.htm

Oh nice.. Interesting.. But so what? Everyone has the instinct, some know better use of that. Several people have 20/20 vision but not all of them are sharpshooters. A lot of people are muscular but not all of them are Bruce Lee. If there's a research that claims some people have magnetoception and some don't, I'd like to see that one.

So; 0% sense of direction: You do not trust/distinguish your instinct. City folk.
    50% sense of direction: You feel the urge inside and you learn to walk the way you felt, instead of the direction that seems to be the correct one. But you can't always distinguish the true instinct.
   100% sense of direction: You can distinguish your sixth sense perfectly. In darkness, you can find your apartment room from deep Grey Forest without a sweat.

http://www.jstor.org/pss/2744059?cookieSet=1

Only the first page? So, now we know people may find their directions in harsh conditions. Maxxed out bastards, they are.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetoception

..... evidence remains ambiguous.... delete the whole third link. Evoked responses, something I used to like to read about. It's not revelant so I did not dig further.

Edit: Uh.. found this one. http://www.sinnesphysiologie.de/download/magrev05.pdf but it'll take some time to read and digest it I guess.

[Xeran Van Houten]

Really now Morg, what is the reason Vet rangers are not getting the skill boosted to a level fitting play time?

Same reason they didn't get a boost to starting trample.  Same reason other guilds don't get starting boosts when new skills are introduced.  You're expected to play it through.  Wave your hands, call it a ret-con, whatever you like, but for all intents and purposes you never were any better at this than you are now.  Welcome to your new reality.

It really doesn't matter what arguments people want to put out, this is more or less the (new) bottom line.

[Morgenes]

X-D, I encourage you to try it again, and if you can provide logs and feedback to my email.  You were one of the first people to use the code and it has already been revised twice in the last 36 hours.  Please don't take what you got as the first test to be the way it will always be.

I am actively tweaking this and have the ability now to walk along with someone having issues and see exactly how the calculations are being done to see if there are more issues.  Of course right now I can't find a sand storm in the entire known world, so I can't do anything with it.

FWIW, Ranger's starting direction sense is HIGHER than the cap on any sub-guild that gets it.  Even without gear, a starting ranger should be really good with navigating in a standard storm.  The more powerful the storm, the worse it'll be, but still a far cry better than anyone else.

IMO the advantage of this change is it gives more people the ability to navigate storms (even some mitigation for those that don't have the skill) to improve playability and allow people to not be stuck should a storm come up.  Will it still be an inconvenience, probably, but will it mean you can't go out because it's stormy, not as likely.

[evil_erdlu]

Finally, humans either lack magnetoreception
or are not consciously aware of it5, so our own sensory
experiences provide little intuitive insight into where
magnetoreceptors might be found.

We could trust this one.

It's from http://www.sinnesphysiologie.de/download/magrev05.pdf . I believe we can trust this one, being written as an academic study by actual Department of Biology tutors.

[X-D]

Sorry Morg, as I said in my email, I'm not really trying to be a prick on this matter.

But Going from perfect to newb in a single reboot...twitch.

That and really, I'm starting to feel the weight of feature creep...and I don't much like it.

This change might very well enhance playability, most in the past few years IMO, do not. And the number of things I don't like about arm passed the number of things I do several months back.

Still, I love my PC, that might keep me for a while yet, I'll log in later and do some testing...with logs this time.

[Sephiroto]

Sorry Morg, as I said in my email, I'm not really trying to be a prick on this matter.

But Going from perfect to newb in a single reboot...twitch.

That and really, I'm starting to feel the weight of feature creep...and I don't much like it.

This change might very well enhance playability, most in the past few years IMO, do not. And the number of things I don't like about arm passed the number of things I do several months back.

Still, I love my PC, that might keep me for a while yet, I'll log in later and do some testing...with logs this time.

Until the next reboot when the fix goes in, you're going to have problems even as your skill increases.  Morg posted something about this a few pages back and I'm pretty certain that there has been no reboot yet (can't check from work.)  So, please hold tight.  I'm fairly confident that when the bug fix goes in you'll be much better and, as your new skill increases, you'll  be perfect again.

So, the good news is, XD, that until the fix goes live you'll get plenty of chances to fail and skill up your newb skill.  If the MUD has rebooted in the past 12 hours and you're still having less than 50% success, I otherwise suggest you email Morg with some logs so he can find out if there are more issues he wasn't previously aware of.

[Morgenes]

We rebooted this morning to get some fixes in and to enhance my logging ability.  I am still looking for a guinea pig that is wandering the storms to test with.  If you happen to be on and travelling in a sandstorm, feel free to wish up in the next hour or so and I'll watch if I can.

[X-D]

Testing now....So far, better then last time.....

[Twilight]

Blinding storms with a non-ranger, non-direction sense character that had the right equipment...wow, nice.  So much more playable, and I had no problems leading someone around really (although he is a ranger)

[manipura]

I haven't had a chance yet to adequately test this change IG, so I have no real opinion on it yet...I ALSO haven't had a chance yet to read the many pages already in this thread, but I have something I'd like to clarify....sorry if it's been covered in one of the previous responses...
Is this direction sense skill an actual perception skill that should appear on the skills list of my ranger? 
Or is it just a skill I have that is automatically used when necessary? 

[Morgenes]

I haven't had a chance yet to adequately test this change IG, so I have no real opinion on it yet...I ALSO haven't had a chance yet to read the many pages already in this thread, but I have something I'd like to clarify....sorry if it's been covered in one of the previous responses...
Is this direction sense skill an actual perception skill that should appear on the skills list of my ranger? 
Or is it just a skill I have that is automatically used when necessary? 

It should appear in your skill list if you are a ranger or have one of the subguilds that get it.

[LauraMars]

Just expressing my love again.

I love you, Morgenes.

[Sunburned]

I understand how this might irritate the folks who are the perpetual ranger playing sort...

...but I feel this is the best playability code change made since I started playing a few years back.  

For anyone that's ever wanted to play a desert elf warrior in a tribe where the player base cannot insure the constant presence of a ranger to guide them through the threat of blinding weather, this is a fantastic change.  A huge thank you, Morgenes.

The only improvement I would desire is that -all- desert elves would have this skill at least at the subguild cap... and perhaps that desert elf rangers should not require the extra equipment in order to have perfect storm navigation (excluding "tremendous" sandstorms).