Skill grinding

[Devilb0y]

Just a quick comment about the idea of carrying experience over or not starting as a novice: If you've got 100 magicker characters behind you, and I have one, even if we start at exactly the same time, in exactly the same place with exactly the same skills and stats, who do you think is levelling quicker? That's carried over experience in my books.

[Gunnerblaster]

I think it really depends on your personal preferences. Yes, this game is about roleplay but is also a game. People play to have fun and some believe that, lacking proficient in a majority of skills, inhibits them from doing so.

To me, it's all role dependent. My skills are used when they're needed. I don't go out of my way to kill that raptor -all- the way out there or to decide to shoot at everything I see with my bow, just because I can (and need the exp points!)

[Saellyn]

I think it really depends on your personal preferences. Yes, this game is about roleplay but is also a game. People play to have fun and some believe that, lacking proficient in a majority of skills, inhibits them from doing so.

To me, it's all role dependent. My skills are used when they're needed. I don't go out of my way to kill that raptor -all- the way out there or to decide to shoot at everything I see with my bow, just because I can (and need the exp points!)

^^ I hope you're not going after that raptor straight out of the box, man. If you did, though, make sure you get my muffins back.

[ianmartin]

Why do people start threads like this anyway?  No offense to the person who started it, but I don't feel like a thread of this nature which seems to be a complaint should be put up on here like this.  To me it appears that someone is trying to shame or otherwise manipulate the play of others.  I have been in roleplay with people who stifle other's rp because they adopted a certain 'I can rp better than you' attitude and proceeded to make things miserable.  In fact, this only lessened my enjoyment.

Just putting in my $0.02 worth

[Is Friday]

I once submitted an app for a reclusive-type tribal clan that got accepted. It had quite a few cool things to it, in my opinion. First, I doused the app in a cultural background that was readily apparent on interaction--and was fully documented in the original biography. In easier to understand terms: I made my character's culture visible with a single LOOK or EMOTE.

Now the challenge of the role was that it was "secluded". Not that it was cut off from the world--not at all. In fact the opposite, it was near a utopia of activity. The barriers were language/reclusive tribal attitude. How was I to have fun in a role like this? When all I wanted to do was show off all my cool emotes and represent the tribe's culture to enrich the game world--I was limited to "snapshots". I could emote once or twice in front of people, back away, and vanish--as per the documents laid out by the staff. Furthering this starvation for interaction was the "problem" that I played a great deal more than my tribe counterparts, and in turn became attention-crazed... sorta.

So how exactly do you make an impact on the world without saying anything understandable (language barrier), or interacting all too often? Make it memorable. How do you make something memorable? Be exceptional. How do you be exceptional? This is the difficult part to admit... because I know it's going to dog me long after I've said it. I chose to skill grind.

Why does skill grinding fall into my list of needs to make the role fun? First off, I'm kind of like Synthesis in which I like "problem solving". I figure out problems and attack them with my intelligence and creativity. For the past few years I've played, one of my hobbies has been attacking the skill tree. To make things more interesting for myself, I gave my character a roleplaying handicap that can be easily figured out if you think about it. After I did that, as per my dude's background and roleplayed behavior, I began to experiment.

What I wanted to do is to see if a "one-armed" warrior could indeed be awesome. I ended up attracting the attention of the staff and "wrongfully" punished for a few things I didn't do. (The wrong was righted and apologies made, so no real foul imo.)

What the staff saw was me running around trying to become awesome with my dude. I frequently did not emote, and never sent in updates to the staff about what I was doing. (On the other side of the table, the staff never did ask, either.) That is, I didn't emote until I was in the presence of someone else or on the rare occasion when I was alone. I was playing the game to have fun, and that I did.

Didn't break any rules, or anything.

[Sinna]

I believe the following:

If you believe what you are doing is skill-grinding, it's wrong because this mud is about role-playing.
If the staff believes what you are doing is skill-grinding, it's very definitely wrong because it's their game.

If neither of these are true, then you're doing alright.

[LoD]

What the staff saw was me running around trying to become awesome with my dude. I frequently did not emote, and never sent in updates to the staff about what I was doing. (On the other side of the table, the staff never did ask, either.) That is, I didn't emote until I was in the presence of someone else or on the rare occasion when I was alone. I was playing the game to have fun, and that I did.

Didn't break any rules, or anything.

  Gesturing casually to one side, his leather armor creaking in response, Jhoram added, "And that's why you don't tickle a tembo."  Everyone in the great hall laughed, their voices bouncing amidst the rich wooden walls before resolving into a low hum of dull table conversation.  Jhoram exchanged pleasantries with a few of the local nobles, his features vibrant and alert.  This was his element.  Eventually, the noble lords dispersed to leave only Lord Walay of the House Harrowmont standing at his side.

  Leaning in, Lord Walay quietly offered, "Quite a feast, Lord Jhoram.  You've done well tonight, and won the approval of your peers."  Lord Walay's reddened gaze slowly swept over the feasting crowd, an approving smile plastered across his face.  Lifting a pair of bushy eyebrows, he turned back to Jhoram, "What will you do now?"  Jhoram surveyed the raucous chamber with a gentle sigh, "I think I'll head out for the evening, Walay.  I have a few things I'd like to have completed before morning."

  Clapping a friendly hand to Jhoram's shoulder, his other strangling the handle of a rugged clay tankard brimming with frothy red ale, Lord Walay stated, "You're a testament to your father -- always the dutiful son."  Beginning to turn away, Walay suddenly paused and glanced back toward Jhoram, "Do be careful this evening, lad.  While these men toast you tonight, there are more than a few that would rather see themselves sitting at the head of the table, eh?"  Walay held Jhoram's eyes for a few moments, then slowly moved toward the swaying form of a passing serving wench as he returned to the festivities.

  Jhoram inhaled a deep breath, leaning against the sturdy pillar as he considered Walay's warning.  Perhaps there were men that would see him harmed, that would want him dead.  Maybe the old man is right. Jhoram thought, rubbing a gloved hand along his bristling beard as he watched the men and women before him feasting and drinking.  "All the more reason to leave on my own terms, and of my own free will then." Jhoram quietly commented to himself, making his way toward the southern doorway.  Passing through the arched doorway, Jhoram stepped out in the night air.

  Jhoram walked east.  Jhoram walked north.  Jhoram walked north.  Jhoram walked north.  Jhoram began to move quietly.  Jhoram stealthily moved west.  Jhoram stealthily moved west.  Jhoram stealthily moved west.  Jhoram tries to blend in with his surroundings.  Johram stealthily moved north.  Jhoram watches north.  Jhoram stealthily moved north.  Jhoram stealthily moved north.  Jhoram draws a bone dagger.  Jhoram stealthily moved north.  Jhoram stealthily moved north.  Jhoram stealthily moved north.  Johram tries to blend in with his surroundings.  A ragged man arrives from the south.  A gurgle of blood sounds as Jhoram drives a bone dagger into the back of a ragged man.  A ragged man crumples to the ground.  Jhoram gets a ragged robe from the corpse of a ragged man.  Jhoram stealthily moved north.

----------

I would probably be disappointed if I were reading this book, and wonder why the author had suddenly chosen to switch styles and provide so little commentary on what was happening.  Why he'd switched straight to facts, and omitted all of the style and poetry that was making this an enjoyable story to read.  I imagine Staff members feel the same way about players who shine and develop a wonderful story when in the company of other characters, but suddenly drop everything when they are completely alone.

Emoting and thinking (in company and alone) may not equal role-playing, but it sure makes for a more interesting story.

-LoD

[Lizzie]

LoD, while your post is poetic, and creative, and really neat, it doesn't exactly encourage me to make my solo-RP more exciting. Rather, it encourages me to make my interactions -less- exciting.

I'm just grateful after reading your post, that I have never attempted to live up to such high expectations. I am less likely to disappoint.

[LoD]

LoD, while your post is poetic, and creative, and really neat, it doesn't exactly encourage me to make my solo-RP more exciting. Rather, it encourages me to make my interactions -less- exciting.

I'm just grateful after reading your post, that I have never attempted to live up to such high expectations. I am less likely to disappoint.

I didn't intend for the example to represent a standard to which people should hold themselves.  It is poetic and probably more so than most players, myself included, would be able to maintain.  What I do feel is true, however, is that the story, as a whole, benefits from a consistent approach to playing your character.  On the one hand, simply executing hard-coded commands does tell us what your character is doing, but it remains largely silent on the how and the why -- questions that can be answered through thinks, feels, and emotes.  And the answers to these questions can be incredibly useful to your fellow players (visible to you or otherwise), the staff members (visible or otherwise), and even to yourself -- because it can sometimes take you down roads you weren't even expecting to travel in the same way that you never know what you might come up with if you just start painting.

I don't think my goal is to make you strive for "exciting" solo-RP, as much as to strive for consistently communicating what, why, and how you are performing your actions instead of simply the what.

-LoD

[Geryon]

LoD's post caused within me an LoL, but I'd like to address something from my personal (not staff-wide by any means) perspective.

There's no burden on any player to entertain us, though many of you do. Play to have fun, play as you will. The main things that concern me when I'm eating brainz are that 1) the rules of the MUD are being followed, and 2) players are reacting to the world realistically IG.

Let's look back at LoD's story. The build up to the actions Jhoram took was great. But let's just say that I don't actually have my Spoon of Brainz Eating +1 ready at that time, and only catch the guy when he's sneaking around. If we assume also that Jhoram isn't one of my clannies who should hopefully be sending semi-regular, detailed reports of his motivations, I'm just seeing some dude sneaking and murdering. There's absolutely no context. It's easy to misread things in that case. It's hard to tell if they're conscious of the game world or just treating it mechanically. No thoughts or feels or anything when he ends that poor sap's life? Is he an unfeeling sociopath or what?  Almost anything's valid, but give me -something-.

So in short, if you just can't stand to get elaborate with your emotes when you're stuck alone, codedly interacting with the world (and believe me, I'm not the High-Mighty King of Solo-RP myself), then an occasional email to your imms describing your character's actions and motivations goes a long ways. And let me tell you, even the odd think or feel does wonders in granting us perspective on what's going on down there.

[Also, LoD beat me to the punch here: "... consistently communicating what, why, and how you are performing your actions instead of simply the what" is a good summation.]

[Sephiroto]

I would probably be disappointed if I were reading this book, and wonder why the author had suddenly chosen to switch styles and provide so little commentary on what was happening.  Why he'd switched straight to facts, and omitted all of the style and poetry that was making this an enjoyable story to read.  I imagine Staff members feel the same way about players who shine and develop a wonderful story when in the company of other characters, but suddenly drop everything when they are completely alone.

Emoting and thinking (in company and alone) may not equal role-playing, but it sure makes for a more interesting story.

-LoD

There's no way I can say this without sounding like a complete dick but man, but nowhere in the docs does it say we play this game game for the entertainment of the staff and invisible people.  *It looks like Geryon said something similar as I was typing this post*

I often do things similar as Is Friday and have never been complained about from the staff, with the exception of my infrequent or completely absent updates.  I'm not saying I resort only to commands and spam when alone, but my level of RP generally decreases greatly.  Why waste time emoting this and that, while alone, when I the player can simply imagine it in my head.  With the exception of an IG echo the result is the same.  I'm alone, right?  I'm not playing to entertain invisibles, right?  Then why emote every little thing?  Anyway, I play this game for my own fun.  If invisible/hidden players and staff want entertainment, and this is just a suggestion, maybe you should throw a few hints of your presence behind the scenes.  Mature roleplayers should be able to up the level of detail and world interaction without taking advantage of the fact that they know someone is there.

[Thunkkin]

His boots scuffing through the blood-spattered straw of the training hall, Awesomeosecles strode toward the sergeant.  Their eyes locked for a single moment, expressing their mutual loathing yet grudging respect.

"I don't like yer kind," rasped the Sergeant, leaning his face close so that the two were surrounded in an invisible yet powerful cloud of of spiced-tregil-with-roasted-roots-breath.  "But that don't mean I ain't going to beat you into being the best drov-damned half-elf mercenary this side of the Shield Wall."

"I know," said Awesomeosecles, teeth clenched as he carefully wiped the Sergeant's spittle from his face.  

"I know you know!  And now I'm going to make you know it again!" bawled the Sergeant.

"I knew you'd say that."  Awesomeosecles' words were like the soft patter of halfing urine raining down from amongst the branches of a baobab tree - quiet, yet distinctly annoying.

MONTAGE <"You've got the Touch" by Stan Bush>:  Awesomeosecles getting his butt kicked by the sergeant.  Awesomeosecles' eyes filling with tears, but then suddenly his face being overcome with a look of determination.  Awesomeosecles lifting weights ... small ones.  Awesomeosecles running along a balance beam and falling while other soldiers laugh.  Awesomeosecles standing on the ramparts in the evening, practicing tai-chi but suddenly turning away in frustration.  Awesomeosecles sparring with another mercenary, this time managing to get in a few good strikes.  The two mercenaries give each other approving nods.  Awesomeosecles lifting weights again ... this time larger ones.  Awesomeosecles running along a balance beam but this time only wobbling.  Several soldiers give him a high-five as he leaps nimbly down at the end of the beam.  Awesomeosecles standing on the rampart, doing tai-chi, but this time he's in the zone.  People in the street below look up and notice him and the cute, comical relief kid looks up with wide, admiring eyes.  Awesomeosecles sparring several other mercenaries at once and managing to handle them all at once! <music fades as Awesomeosecles strides into a sparring ring where the Sergeant stands waiting for him.  This time, we all know he's going to kick the Sergeant's ass>.

- - - - - - -

I usually agree with LoD 100%, but the problem with the book or movie metaphor is that books and movies skip much of the stuff that we play out. A book will not describe a character walking from point A to point B, unless something significant happens or unless the author needs to establish the mood of a place to a reader.  Having established that mood, it probably won't be repeated again too many times.  The exception is for significant character development in which the way the character is walking tells a story about their reaction to being dumped by Sally or realizing that they are, indeed, the Chosen One.  However, most movies and books cut to the action.  We, on the other hand, have to move through 30 rooms of screen scroll.  Over.  And over.  And over.  And over.  I'll throw out some thinks, feels, and an emote or two.  But dammit.  Sometimes I just want to get to the Gaj.  I could really flesh out each and every time I walked from point A to point B, but then, by the time I got there, it would probably be time to leave or log out.

As for training, the vast majority of books and movies handle this with a montage or with a few selected scenes.  So, you'll get some scenes in which the main character is humiliated, in order to make you root for said main character and despise their enemies.  You'll get a comic relief scene or a scene in which they build relationships with their fellow trainees.  Then you'll get a scene in which the main character demonstrates that they've improved.  Every single time they train is not included in a book or movie.  It usually referred to by having the main character enter a room and the author lets us know that the character is sore from training or covered in bruises, etc.  We know that training is going on, but honestly, we don't want to see or read it.

There's a reason why, for instance, the Harry Potter books actually have very few scenes that have much to do with learning the mundane ins-and-outs of magic.  Scenes of triumph, humiliation, and comic relief are portrayed along with scenes in which a classroom event is used as a vehicle to introduce plot elements that have nothing to do with learning/training.  The rest is handled by throw-away lines that let the reader know that Harry, Ron, and Hermione are studying/working.  But we don't get the gory details of every single assignment, test, and practice session.  

Why not?

Because it's boring.

We as players must navigate, I feel, somewhere between the two extremes.  On the one hand, we want to tell a story and make everything as interesting as possible.  On the other hand, if our characters are characters that have skills, we have to play out the minutiae of what is normally handled in narratives with a montage.  I'm going to make sure that I never break character and that my actions are always IC and believable.  I don't think it's possible, however, to make every single trip from the Byn compound to the Gaj or from the gates to the militia barracks a beautiful, stirring narrative.  I don't think it's possible to make Byn training session #1,584,192 as exciting and memorable as the political intrigue at the feast my character will attend that evening.

TLDR version:
I don't know how we can be held to the standards of top-notch authors when those authors would absolutely skip about 98% of what we do in the game.

[Thunkkin]

Oh, to add now that I've read the responses that appeared while I was writing mine ... I obviously agree that murdering someone should be accompanied by emotes, thinks, and feels that communicate emotions, reaction, etc.  My post was more meant within the context of "skill grinding."

Here's a video of what a skill-obsessed twink may look like:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bu00RiPjaa4

Also:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIi0vFyqWAc

[LoD]

There's no way I can say this without sounding like a complete dick but man, but nowhere in the docs does it say we play this game game for the entertainment of the staff and invisible people.  *It looks like Geryon said something similar as I was typing this post*

I often do things similar as Is Friday and have never been complained about from the staff, with the exception of my infrequent or completely absent updates.  I'm not saying I resort only to commands and spam when alone, but my level of RP generally decreases greatly.  Why waste time emoting this and that, while alone, when I the player can simply imagine it in my head.  With the exception of an IG echo the result is the same.  I'm alone, right?  I'm not playing to entertain invisibles, right?  Then why emote every little thing?  Anyway, I play this game for my own fun.  If invisible/hidden players and staff want entertainment, and this is just a suggestion, maybe you should throw a few hints of your presence behind the scenes.  Mature roleplayers should be able to up the level of detail and world interaction without taking advantage of the fact that they know someone is there.

No problem, Seph.  We're just discussing stuff, right? =)

It seems I wasn't as clear about the motivation for these emotes, thinks, and feels in my initial posts.  I wouldn't ever want you to emote something for the enjoyment or entertainment of someone else, but to help communicate with other people (mortal and otherwise) so that they can understand your motivations and respond in kind.  Whether it be PC's in a game or actors on a stage, there's a collaboration happening.  It's a group-oriented environment, even though we can often feel alone.

Keeping everything to yourself, imagining it all in your head, deprives others of understanding your motivations and demeanor, especially when some of that would be obvious to an onlooker.  Obvious in your movement, your tone, your choice of words.  In RL we talk to ourselves all the time, make facial expressions, think thoughts, and sometimes we get caught/observed by someone we didn't know was watching or was there.  That leads to further discussion and interaction, which I think is what can be missed by keeping everything inside.

For example, here's coming across someone keeping things to themselves.

Code Select Expand

Rajan's Way [EW]

>west
You walk west.

Rajan's Way [EW]
The tall, muscular man is sitting here.

The tall, muscular man looks at you.

And here could be how it feels different when they aren't:

Code Select Expand

Rajan's Way [EW]

>west
You walk west.

Rajan's Way [EW]
The tall, muscular man sits against the wall, sobbing quietly.

Spittle drooling from his lips, the tall, muscular man asks, in sirihish:
   "Why did he have to die?"

Drawing a hand across his mouth, the tall, muscular man looks up at you.

It's not about entertainment, it's about communication.  Communicating (to anyone that may be paying attention) what, how, and why you might be doing can allow others to form a more complete and accurate response to your actions.  It's a different mentality, and a different motivation to supply that type of information.  I know some people take offense when people bring up think, feel, and emote in a way that claims not using them isn't good RP.  I'm not saying it's not good RP -- I'm just saying it's not optimal communication with your fellow players, and both of you may be sacrificing some pretty good scenes if you were to share more about your character instead of keeping it all in your own imagination.

-LoD

[RogueGunslinger]

But if we can't see anyone to communicate to; that's the situation I think they're referring, when it come to skill grinding. Should we really be OOCly pretending there's someone hidden, watching us all the time?

Of course not. But I don't believe you should be completely placid all the time, either. I like to think of it as the balance comes between your fun and enjoyment, and your honing of your emoting/rp skills. So I'll do about one practice emote every few varying actions, and maybe once every 10 or so forage attempts/room moves.

[Sephiroto]

That makes a lot of sense, LoD. I actually got a chuckle out of what you said because it made me realize that my Armageddon playing style sometimes represents my actual self.  I've often been described by women I've dated as "very internal", so what you say really hit the nail on the head.  In general I believe the fact that how we play roleplaying games like Armageddon or D&D uncovers a lot about the personality of every player.  At any rate, that was a derail from the original post but it has got me thinking about how I can improve my interactivity with the world by becoming more aware of occasional, spammy play styles.  In the same light, I hope someone else finds this helpful.

[Hot_Dancer]

I hate that the more skilled your character becomes the less interesting their ending is likely to be as the number
of coded threats available in game decline.

Skills go up and you more or less get to god-mode on other characters with less playing time until the local magicker
one-shots you, a strong poison gets in your PC's system or you get clubbed while unarmed, idling.

Do you really want to spend that much time grinding?

Welcome to Armageddon.

I'm beginning to find that I enjoy playing a 10 day old PC more than a 100 day old PC as interactions seem to
become much less linear and the available fates to my character are much more colorful.

[Sinna]

Regarding the benefits of solo-RP and why I do it - it helps me visualize who my character is and what their particular psychology is.

[Synthesis]

I hate that the more skilled your character becomes the less interesting their ending is likely to be as the number
of coded threats available in game decline.

Skills go up and you more or less get to god-mode on other characters with less playing time until the local magicker
one-shots you, a strong poison gets in your PC's system or you get clubbed while unarmed, idling.

Do you really want to spend that much time grinding?

Welcome to Armageddon.

I'm beginning to find that I enjoy playing a 10 day old PC more than a 100 day old PC as interactions seem to
become much less linear and the available fates to my character are much more colorful.

So don't play a combat guild?  I'm pretty sure there are plenty of common things that would utterly pwn even a 100-day merchant.

[Saellyn]

If you get clubbed while unarmed and idling... stop being unarmed, dummy! You're supposed to be a hardcore warrior. Everybody knows hardcore warriors carry half-giant cleavers as secondaries!

But uh... really, why is anybody complaining about this? The guy that sits around and skill grinds will get ganked by the staff eventually. I just want to be there when it happens. Unless it's like... a thousand Meks being spawned in one area. Then I want to be very far away.

[Akoto]

Personally, I try to throw in emotes whenever I'm practicing things, but I don't do it with every single action. Even in the company of others, I wouldn't do so, as it would swiftly become repetitive and tedious for all parties.

I really have no issue with skill grinding. For those who say that guild must come secondary to character, I would point out that some guilds (and race, in one case) are more than mere skillsets, such that they have a direct impact on the character's life. If what you are results in your being hunted on all fronts, you may very well need to improve those skills in order to have a chance. I'm not saying to go hog wild and never, ever interact, but some degree of grinding can be important to survival.

I'd like to reaffirm earlier statements that reports to staff are important. I try to send one in on a weekly or bi-weekly basis, even as an independent, to tell them what I've been up to. That way, even if they should just happen to see me grinding, they will be apprised of the fact that I've been out and doing other things.

Overall, my belief is that there's far too much concern lately regarding what other people are doing. Stop worrying about them. That's staff's job.

[AmandaGreathouse]

Personally, I try to throw in emotes whenever I'm practicing things, but I don't do it with every single action. Even in the company of others, I wouldn't do so, as it would swiftly become repetitive and tedious for all parties.

I really have no issue with skill grinding. For those who say that guild must come secondary to character, I would point out that some guilds (and race, in one case) are more than mere skillsets, such that they have a direct impact on the character's life. If what you are results in your being hunted on all fronts, you may very well need to improve those skills in order to have a chance. I'm not saying to go hog wild and never, ever interact, but some degree of grinding can be important to survival.

I'd like to reaffirm earlier statements that reports to staff are important. I try to send one in on a weekly or bi-weekly basis, even as an independent, to tell them what I've been up to. That way, even if they should just happen to see me grinding, they will be apprised of the fact that I've been out and doing other things.

Overall, my belief is that there's far too much concern lately regarding what other people are doing. Stop worrying about them. That's staff's job.

This.

I don't particularly log in to practice, or even tend to do so overly much, but if I'm logged in and can't find any interaction, it gives me something to do, other than ponder the same thing for the 503rd time.

[Qzzrbl]

I dunno if it's been suggested before, but I was thinking on it the other day.

What does everyone else think about letting subguild skills stack over main guild skills?

Like, a warrior/acrobat's skill in "kick" would start higher because both come with it?

That way, people could sacrifice a more varied skillset for higher starting skills  in a few areas.

Just throwing it out there-- might do a bit to ease the "grind" people keep bringing up on the GDB.

[Xeran Van Houten]

THought that's how it worked - highest cap and highest starting level.

[jmordetsky]

THought that's how it worked - highest cap and highest starting level.

I think in almost all cases if the main guild skill overlaps a subguild skill it is usually a higher start + cap. But yea, I think you are right.