Idea For Realism

[Krath]

So, There has been a lot of discussion about Realism, so I have an Idea I
want to run by you all. Armageddon is not real enough on a lot of aspects we
all can agree. Things like HP regeneration, Inflation, Real wounds do your pc
(I.E amputation), Non-realistic interactions with magickers, Magickers not being
feared by pcs are all things people would like fixed to be more real. So here is
my Idea..

Want Real Life Consequences, go spend time in IRL. I understand is skills and
such are not balanced but this is a game. Dont like the way HP Regen is,
Go to the toughest IRL Neighborhood, start a fight and then deal with you
slow HP regen there...Inflation not good enough, go work in a third world
country for a month or two, Getting an arm bludgeoned brutally in game
and upset because it isnt broken ICly? Go attack an officer of the law.

Basically, This is a game, it isnt real life, we come here to play with each
other and interact with the game world. If you wanted RL Consequences
go try what you do IC IRL.

I love you all, But just please remember, it is a game.

Feel free to comment all you want...But remember Krath Loves you!

[brytta.leofa]

And all I want to do is cross the dang bridge.

[Pale Horse]

And all I want to do is cross the dang bridge.

I've got a bridge down in Florida I can sell you.  Dirt cheap, too!

[Cutthroat]

So, There has been a lot of discussion about Realism,

Really?

so I have an Idea I
want to run by you all. Armageddon is not real enough on a lot of aspects we
all can agree. Things like HP regeneration, Inflation, Real wounds do your pc
(I.E amputation), Non-realistic interactions with magickers, Magickers not being
feared by pcs are all things people would like fixed to be more real. So here is
my Idea..

I think when people suggest realism for an idea in Arm, they usually mean realism according to what the world of Zalanthas demands, which is not really realism but consistency. All those things you mentioned are a certain way to create fun RP opportunities, for players to take wherever they like.

To use one of your examples, the average person in Zalanthas reacts to a magicker with anything from distrust to outright hatred. It would be "realistic" to do the same. It would be "unrealistic" to randomly walk up to a gemmer in the Gaj and ask to have spells cast on you, or openly court them, because the average person in Zalanthas that does this would get wtfpwned by all the other average people in Zalanthas watching in some way.

Want Real Life Consequences, go spend time in IRL. I understand is skills and
such are not balanced but this is a game. Dont like the way HP Regen is,
Go to the toughest IRL Neighborhood, start a fight and then deal with you
slow HP regen there...Inflation not good enough, go work in a third world
country for a month or two, Getting an arm bludgeoned brutally in game
and upset because it isnt broken ICly? Go attack an officer of the law.

Basically, This is a game, it isnt real life, we come here to play with each
other and interact with the game world. If you wanted RL Consequences
go try what you do IC IRL.

I love you all, But just please remember, it is a game.

Feel free to comment all you want...But remember Krath Loves you!

The latest discussion about inflation seems to be just idle curiosity, and some people are actually interested in how newbie coins devalue the average single coin, or how item prices change. More power to them, if they want to enrich the world for themselves.

[Krath]

CutThroat,

Those were just the most recent, I can go through the logs for you and list all of them though.

As to your first point, Interesting aspect on it. Lets see what others have to say too!

[LoD]

I believe people often confuse a want/desire for realism with a want/desire to achieve realistic expectations.

> Elemental fire being summoned from the plane of Suk-Krath and hurled at someone isn't very realistic.
> The belief that elemental fire pulled from the hell-pits of Suk-Krath should burn a victim's skin/clothing is a realistic expectation.

> Domesticated giant insects that serve as mounts, especially modeled closely after Earth insects, are not very realistic.
> Domesticated giant insects tiring out after carrying a heavy load (e.g. rider, packs) across the desert is a realistic expectation.

> Shrugging off the bite of a four ton, twenty foot lizard within a few hours is not very realistic.
> Needing some kind of rest after sustaining a damaging blow before being completely healed is a realistic expectation.

There are many parts of our world that don't need to be realistic in order to match a player's realistic expectations, and these terms/sentiments often seem to be used interchangeably.  I realize that Krath is likely addressing people who are pursuing game changes to better mirror their experiences on Earth, such as wounds taking longer to heal, inflation being a real part of a complex economy, etc...  However, I think that some good can come from people allowing a bit more discussion about "realistic expectations" before condemning them for taking a game too seriously.

-LoD

[brytta.leofa]

When I yammer about "realism," what I really mean is "things that don't yank me up short and make me think about how code works."

"Realistic" crimecode lets me think about the situation my character's getting into by breaking the law.
"Unrealistic" crimecode makes me think about crimecode.

"Realistic" riding lets me think about how, supposing that two-ton lizards do exist and make excellent mounts, I might go about handling one.
"Unrealistic" riding makes me spam "w" fifty times.  (It's much better now, guys, thnx.)

"Realistic" code makes those aspects of the game that do fit in our real-life experience behave more or less as we might expect.

If you're looking for a source of inspiration for how something might work in the game, Real Life tends to be easily understandable and inherently balanced.  Obviously building an enjoyable game is the first consideration; what some of us call "realism" is sometimes a good way of supporting that goal.

[razorback]

Coming from someone who's been around awhile, but still fairly new to the game (less than a decade, I'm still a nOOb *sigh*), I'll just toss in my two sids just on one small part of the realism, as far as rping things go. When my PCs get hurt IC, for example, getting knocked around by a bahamet (and the word I used was not OW!, by the way) I rped the injury out for a very long time. I would think having a fight with such a thing would cause major injuries, and my PC didn't really move much for a good IC while. I think it's up to the player, in the end. I myself try to focus on my own play, even if the guy who just saw me RPing my leg still being wrapped around my shoulders still wants to spar. 

P.S. wtfpwned <-- I'm so gonna find a way to use that IC, Krath.

[burble]

When I enter someone else's world, usually through reading books but long ago as a tabletop D&D'er, I accept their rules for their imaginary world.
Those are scenarios that have much larger vocabularies and situational possibilities than any mud code.

With that in mind - here is an alternative to the expectations presented so far:

Magic fire is just that - it can burn just flesh, burn just the eyeballs, work exactly as the creator intended. I have no expectation that it behave like normal fire.

Domesticated giant insects and loads - I imagine that humans on the backs of these guys are no more than large ticks would be to a dog. If it doesn't bother them much then I don't see a problem with it.

Pain/hurt/ and the HP consideration - that one is tough. The messages seem to be from the point of view of the attacker and does not take into consideration the victim's state. A near decapitation that takes 10 hitpoints should have a different meaning if you still have 90 hit points or are down to 20. So if you are a very literal person and see the message that I got nearly decapitated - you would expect me to fall over and squeel in agony. But, from my perspective it might only take a little bit of walking to be ok so... Maybe a compromise would be two sets of messages - one for when you can walk it off and one for when you will have to sleep to get better. That way the literal camp will be happy watching battles. For me, anything down to where my char has to sleep is not a grievous wound. It's more like sprains, aches, etc. Rest a little or walk it off, it doesn't matter.

I don't know anything about criminals so can't say what I would expect there.

As far as mounts and spamming W fifty times.... have kids (no I don't have any but I've been around these critters) and you will see that repeating the same command to some creatures and not getting a response is actually very realistic behavior. (The annoying parent says "Johnny clean up your mess." x50).

In short, since most of the action in a mud is the same words used over and over and the details filled in by your imagination... I can see how we all experience things differently.

Hope this contributes to the discussion.

Peace and love on Earth... murder and mayhem on Zalanthas!

[MarshallDFX]

I can testify that I asked my question about inflation because I am an economics grad-student, and was genuinely curious about mud-economies.  Hell, I could write a paper on it.  I was not actually very concerned about the realism of Zalanthas monetary policy.
On topic, I approve of the sentiment expressed by the Krath, but doubt its necessity to be said.

[Zoan]

I just like chopping up motherfuckaz with bone swords.

[Comrade Canadia]

Well, when you're talking about realism in fantasy games, there's one golden (unwritten) rule which I think applies:

If you take it from this world, the rules that govern it do not change. Human physiology in Armag is taken from our world. Sure, we say Zalanthans are tougher, but they're still humans. They react the same way to stimuli we do, and when you hit them with swords, they will eventually die. Magick and psionics are make believe, and so they are governed by whatever laws we wish them to be. In order to achieve a tone, we make the laws pretty restrictive.

However, once we bring our laws into Zalanthas, we have to ignore a few of them to serve the narrative. Serving the narrative is key, strong narrative means good game. Certain kinds of realism aid that story. If you go a while without food, you'll die. Same with water. However, we don't have code that forces you to find a privy and take a crap. This doesn't serve the narrative, it just interrupts it. I'm certain common consensus is that making players defecate is going to detract from the game experience as it'll constantly interrupt more interesting things.

And so when people ask for realistic changes to the game, the question we have to ask is not whether or not its more realistic - realistic isn't always good. Does it serve the narrative? Also - can we do it better through emotes and plots? A more realistic hit point system might actually hamper the narrative. The game is designed so that combat characters, especially hunters, beat things up, and get beat up regularly. If they received serious wounds all the time, they'd spend so much time down they'd probably end up quitting. A better solution is for the game to encourage an atmosphere where people roleplay wounds - even if they're at full hit points. This serves the narrative better as the players will still be getting dramatically appropriate wounds, but won't have their desire to play their character crippled by code.

So I agree with the OP in that realism is not always better. Certain kinds of realism is better - but this kind of realism has to contribute to making the game more immersive and fun, rather than forcing players to react to coded prompts which are more of an inconvenience than a roleplay tool.

[Niamh]

Realism I always like to see is people who roleplay out serious wounds.  If you get down to half your hit points or below, you're really screwed up.  I've watched people run away, sleep off the damage wherever they find a spot they feel safe enough in, and then go right back to fighting as soon as the hit points are regenerated.  Sure, you're codedly able to go right back to fighting, but realistically you should be suffering from the pain of those wounds, and physical activity straining at them.

[Aaron Goulet]

Realism I always like to see is people who roleplay out serious wounds.  If you get down to half your hit points or below, you're really screwed up.  I've watched people run away, sleep off the damage wherever they find a spot they feel safe enough in, and then go right back to fighting as soon as the hit points are regenerated.  Sure, you're codedly able to go right back to fighting, but realistically you should be suffering from the pain of those wounds, and physical activity straining at them.

Along the same lines, I like to see people roleplaying fatigue realistically.  Whether your character been sparring all morning, or has crossed thirty leagues of barren desert, chances are that he or she is sore, sweaty, and tired.  While fatigue points regenerate rather quickly, the effects of fatigue should not.  Of course, depending on your character's physical conditioning, his or her mileage may vary.

[HTX]

I see this discussion crop up now and then, and I'd just like to point out, as one of those "realism junkies", that none of us (AFAIK) are striving for "absolute realism". We just want a game world that...:

1) Is consistent
2) Prevents/discourages extremely jarring and unrealistic behaviour, such as been mauled to 2 HP by a carru and then hunting raptors the next day without so much as a wince
3) Is realistic when realism doesn't impede playability; it's not just massive coded systems which impress me in MU*s, but also the little things, little bits of realism and thoughtfulness gone into a game which a more casual observer or player might have missed... and if it doesn't affect gameplay, why not go for realism?
4) Allows us to suspend our disbelief as easily as possible

Other people have gotten most of my points across better than I can word it, so I'll leave it there.

[Lizzie]

Realism I always like to see is people who roleplay out serious wounds.  If you get down to half your hit points or below, you're really screwed up.  I've watched people run away, sleep off the damage wherever they find a spot they feel safe enough in, and then go right back to fighting as soon as the hit points are regenerated.  Sure, you're codedly able to go right back to fighting, but realistically you should be suffering from the pain of those wounds, and physical activity straining at them.

During sparring, I will -rarely- follow that guideline. Because, when I'm a "new" combat-oriented PC, I am more likely than not to get clobbered -every- time I spar. That means, every time I spar, I should roleplay that I have a broken bone, or serious injury, and can't spar again for another...what, week? RL day? Screw that. I don't play combat oriented characters to sit out and watch everyone else have fun. If I'm sparring and I get down to half my HPs, I roleplay that I got a nasty bruise, and seriously stunned, and have to sit out the rest of -that- session. Or at least wait til the end of the day before I take another turn, if my hps regen really fast.

If I get hurt badly more than once in a single session, then I'll be out of commission for a couple of -game- days...meaning, a couple of RL hours.

That's sparring. I'm roleplaying that I'm not NEARLY as hurt as the code insists I am.

Also, on topic: I've posted in other threads about this - to me, it isn't realism, at all. I have no interest in realism. This is a fantasy game. What I'm interested in is believability. Don't make it real..don't make it realistic. Make it fantastic. And make me believe it.

Make me believe the unbelievable. If you're giving me humans who can endure being pounded on by a half-giant, make me believe it. Don't try and make half-giants realistic. They aren't. They don't exist. They're a figment of someone's imagination. Don't try to make combat with a half-giant realistic. You can't. Real people don't spar with make-believe half-giants.

[brytta.leofa]

Realism I always like to see is people who roleplay out serious wounds.  If you get down to half your hit points or below, you're really screwed up.  I've watched people run away, sleep off the damage wherever they find a spot they feel safe enough in, and then go right back to fighting as soon as the hit points are regenerated.  Sure, you're codedly able to go right back to fighting, but realistically you should be suffering from the pain of those wounds, and physical activity straining at them.

I know it, Niamh.  I do, I really do.  I don't do this (flee, sleep, return for more the next day) without being aware and feeling sort of bad 'bout it...

...but, y'know, sometimes you just want to play in the desert.

[Zoltan]

Realism I always like to see is people who roleplay out serious wounds.  If you get down to half your hit points or below, you're really screwed up.  I've watched people run away, sleep off the damage wherever they find a spot they feel safe enough in, and then go right back to fighting as soon as the hit points are regenerated.  Sure, you're codedly able to go right back to fighting, but realistically you should be suffering from the pain of those wounds, and physical activity straining at them.

I know it, Niamh.  I do, I really do.  I don't do this (flee, sleep, return for more the next day) without being aware and feeling sort of bad 'bout it...

...but, y'know, sometimes you just want to play in the desert.

I hear you, there. It's a balance. If you play your character aware of how hurt they are, and how drained they are and start making decisions based off that, you get that balance. No one's asking for people to play a cripple everytime they take a super hard hit: that'd ruin playability.

[Spice Spice Baby]

Realism I always like to see is people who roleplay out serious wounds.  If you get down to half your hit points or below, you're really screwed up.  I've watched people run away, sleep off the damage wherever they find a spot they feel safe enough in, and then go right back to fighting as soon as the hit points are regenerated.  Sure, you're codedly able to go right back to fighting, but realistically you should be suffering from the pain of those wounds, and physical activity straining at them.

I know it, Niamh.  I do, I really do.  I don't do this (flee, sleep, return for more the next day) without being aware and feeling sort of bad 'bout it...

...but, y'know, sometimes you just want to play in the desert.

I think it helps if you keep in mind how your character got those injuries. It's possible to get knocked down to half your HP by a multitude of nicks and grazes that realistically shouldn't be getting past your armour to begin with. In a situation like that, I think you could just emote wiping up a bit of blood and sleep it off and nobody would think it was inappropriate.

[Lizzie]

In the past on occasion, I've actually roleplayed that the thing hitting me, actually hit my -armor- so hard..that the -armor- broke at the buckle, and the -buckle- poked me in the neck, causing me to bleed. So really, I was definitely bleeding, but I wasn't bleeding as badly as the code says..however, I -was- badly injured from the strength of the blow itself..maybe chipped my collarbone, or dislocated my shoulder. This would require some time out of fighting, definitely. But not a lot of time out. And I could continue roleplaying being in pain, but still return to duty within a short period of time. Plus..I get to junk the collar and buy a shiny new one!

[IAmJacksOpinion]

Realism I always like to see is people who roleplay out serious wounds.  If you get down to half your hit points or below, you're really screwed up.  I've watched people run away, sleep off the damage wherever they find a spot they feel safe enough in, and then go right back to fighting as soon as the hit points are regenerated.  Sure, you're codedly able to go right back to fighting, but realistically you should be suffering from the pain of those wounds, and physical activity straining at them.

I'll bounce right back in sparring, in a lot of cases. Basically because I disagree with sparring as it is. :p If a dwarf, or a max-sized human deals me 3 realing solids to the head: Sure, I'll be fucked up. But more likely when you spar you get a lot of little whops to the arms, legs, body - ones that wouldn't really hurt a whole lot, but might be a little sore for a few hours afterward, a day at the most. I don't fall into this whole "viciously scarred and gouged" from sparring thing. At best I'm bruised, scratched, or welted heavily.

[Is Friday]

Realism I always like to see is people who roleplay out serious wounds.  If you get down to half your hit points or below, you're really screwed up.  I've watched people run away, sleep off the damage wherever they find a spot they feel safe enough in, and then go right back to fighting as soon as the hit points are regenerated.  Sure, you're codedly able to go right back to fighting, but realistically you should be suffering from the pain of those wounds, and physical activity straining at them.

I'll bounce right back in sparring, in a lot of cases. Basically because I disagree with sparring as it is. :p If a dwarf, or a max-sized human deals me 3 realing solids to the head: Sure, I'll be fucked up. But more likely when you spar you get a lot of little whops to the arms, legs, body - ones that wouldn't really hurt a whole lot, but might be a little sore for a few hours afterward, a day at the most. I don't fall into this whole "viciously scarred and gouged" from sparring thing. At best I'm bruised, scratched, or welted heavily.

What would you say if someone landed an unspeakable/grevious/brutal?

[Akoto]

I think it's a matter of scale. I've always viewed hit points as a measure of durability, and one man's unspeakable is another man's scratch. A 30hp wound is obviously much less of a threat to a 200hp half-giant, when compared to a flimsy, 90hp elf. The elf would've just lost a third of that which keeps him on his feet.

Having said that, someone else brought up a good point: it's easy to rack up big damage from a multitude of tiny wounds. Death by a thousand paper cuts, rather than any single, annihilating blow. So, it's kind of situational.

Another MUD which I have played for many years, now called Gemstone IV, uses hit points plus locational damage. The wounds can hit the limbs/torso/head/neck/etc and have various stages of severity. While this is more realistic, it's often not enjoyable. You're ready to go out hunting, you run into a monster, and you take 80hp worth of wounds to the head. Whether that damage is cumulative or instant, your head has exploded by that point, and you are dead. Yes, even if you still had hit points left. That's on a game without permanent death, so imagine what it'd be like on Arm.  

The system we have just wasn't coded for realism, and I don't believe it should be treated that way. Absolutely, you should RP being pale and (often, in my case) passing out as a result of being smacked all over the place. Broken bones, gashes, scars. However, I don't think that damage should keep one out of play for extended periods, even when we go out of our way to describe it in detail. On a game, realism has to be balanced with fun, and so we enjoy the fact that Zalanthans are a tough lot.