Life-expectancy. Zalanthas. Earth.

[PurifiedDrinkingWater]

I thought I'd start a discussion to address something I see as a bit of an unrealistic problem. The life-expectancy.

I was talking to a friend of mine about how the stat-rolls for Arm seem very skewed. I couldn't for the life of me understand why here on earth your strongest, fastest, and best athletes are normally young and in their prime. After age 30 and obviously into 40 you pretty much cannot compete in elite-level sports such as gymnastics, olympic sprinting, marathon runs, etc. I got to thinking about the life expectancy and realized it is way off for a world such as Zalanthas.

This link can clearly show that Zalanthas life expectancy and the age you can choose should not be as high as it is as character creation:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_expectancy

We can assume that Zalanthas is somewhat Earth-like. Can we not assume that the peoples bodies are then not similar? If the excuse to not have some sort of change about this is that "Zalanthans are tougher and build muscle differently." than I must diverge to another argument of my own. Why then do they react to poison the way they do? What about death? I think these are good questions and might spur some good debate here on the forums.

I also understand that each race is different, I am speaking mainly about the human race. But also I would challenge posters to come up with scenarios where the other races of Zalanthas somehow would be in less danger to the world and thus live longer? The only way I see a life expectancy of over 30 here on Zalanthas would be for nobles or the extremely wealthy.

-PDW

[Lord of Charas]

I was talking to a friend of mine about how the stat-rolls for Arm seem very skewed. I couldn't for the life of me understand why here on earth your strongest, fastest, and best athletes are normally young and in their prime. After age 30 and obviously into 40 you pretty much cannot compete in elite-level sports such as gymnastics, olympic sprinting, marathon runs, etc. I got to thinking about the life expectancy and realized it is way off for a world such as Zalanthas.

On the contrary, endurance runners (marathoners, mountain-runners, etc.) tend to reach their peak around fourty, fifty, and it is not uncommon to see men of sixty or over running long such distance runs like the Boston Marathon . . . Not uncommon at all.

This link can clearly show that Zalanthas life expectancy and the age you can choose should not be as high as it is as character creation:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_expectancy

I think when it says 'average lifespan', it means 'maximum' lifespan or age that one could (hope) to live to. A mantis is very likely to die of old age before he reaches 25 or 26. Let /alone/ 24.

We can assume that Zalanthas is somewhat Earth-like. Can we not assume that the peoples bodies are then not similar? If the excuse to not have some sort of change about this is that "Zalanthans are tougher and build muscle differently." than I must diverge to another argument of my own. Why then do they react to poison the way they do? What about death? I think these are good questions and might spur some good debate here on the forums.

Zalanthas isn't very Earth-like at all . . .

I also understand that each race is different, I am speaking mainly about the human race. But also I would challenge posters to come up with scenarios where the other races of Zalanthas somehow would be in less danger to the world and thus live longer? The only way I see a life expectancy of over 30 here on Zalanthas would be for nobles or the extremely wealthy.

Yes, then we can have cities populated by children, armies maintained by legions of child-soldiers, and children holding positions of power over other children. Then we'd have something a bit like Lord of the Flies going on, and the only adults would be those with great wealth (i.e.: obvious targets), or power (templars, obviously).

[spicemustflow]

In ancient Rome, the average lifespan of a gladiator was 28. Actually he was kinda of an old coot by then. And gladiators lived longer and better than a common peasant, go figure.

[PurifiedDrinkingWater]

On the contrary, endurance runners (marathoners, mountain-runners, etc.) tend to reach their peak around fourty, fifty, and it is not uncommon to see men of sixty or over running long such distance runs like the Boston Marathon . . . Not uncommon at all.

Is that why we see forty year olds in the olympics? Not everybody is a Dara Torres. All of the world records are held by people when they were young and in their prime. This is a simple fact of nature. Sure older people (40s,50s/60s) can run marathons, but they also have a doctor, and take vitamins and pills and medication and can eat a balanced diet. Unfortunately the way of life on Zalanthas is far different. In fact go over to Africa and see how many 60 year old men in the Kongo are running marathons.

I think when it says 'average lifespan', it means 'maximum' lifespan or age that one could (hope) to live to. A mantis is very likely to die of old age before he reaches 25 or 26. Let /alone/ 24.

I understand that, but honestly you should have to special app to play an old person. Not only do characters die all the time, the current definition of a long-lived PC rarely reaches old age.

Zalanthas isn't very Earth-like at all . . .

Then why is their gravity? Why is there an innumerable amount of concepts taken directly from Earth. Archery, Roads, Mercantilism. Obsidian is a very earth taken material. As is many of the other concepts. If we are taking from earth and assuming that Zalanthas operates under earth-like concepts then we can assume something as simple as the people are like our elite athletes here on earth. And our athletes don't last very long with modern day medicine, painkillers, training techniques, and a temperate climate. I highly doubt the denizens of Zalanthas are so tough they are immune to the aches and pains of aging and having stat rolls work the way they do just makes no sense to me.

Yes, then we can have cities populated by children, armies maintained by legions of child-soldiers, and children holding positions of power over other children. Then we'd have something a bit like Lord of the Flies going on, and the only adults would be those with great wealth (i.e.: obvious targets), or power (templars, obviously).

Alexander the Great is a good example of what a 'child' can accomplish. A child in our minds might be 15, but in antiquity 15 year olds were hardened soldiers and even officers. Females married as soon as they could bear children which is sometimes as early as 13. This is obviously not practiced today but to think that our current modern day culture has any bearing on the cultures in game is not a good way to go about the game. Zalanthas isn't even middle-ages, it's more like a neolithic period of time.

[Lord of Charas]

Is that why we see forty year olds in the olympics? Not everybody is a Dara Torres. All of the world records are held by people when they were young and in their prime. This is a simple fact of nature. Sure older people (40s,50s/60s) can run marathons, but they also have a doctor, and take vitamins and pills and medication and can eat a balanced diet. Unfortunately the way of life on Zalanthas is far different. In fact go over to Africa and see how many 60 year old men in the Kongo are running marathons.

Hah. There are tribes of people who at sixty could probably /beat/ you at a marathon. I've heard of old nicotine addicts in their late fifties (certainly not the cream of the crop, I'd say) competeing in long-distance mountain-running events and even finishing ahead of most of the 'Civilized' Amateurs. In sandals. And if they had been twenty years younger they would have probably even won.

I understand that, but honestly you should have to special app to play an old person. Not only do characters die all the time, the current definition of a long-lived PC rarely reaches old age.

I've seen a lot of very well played old people. I don't see why it should take a special app to play one--it's an option, but, ughh--who wants to play one ? It's not like we're talking sorcerers or psionists here. Hey, why were the cities built ? For protection. Some people (NPC's, obviously), would aspire to live out their lives with greater care in the cities, would never to venture outside, would never do foolish life-shortening things like plot, social-climb or insult the rich or powerful in their respective city-states, and thus could easily live on to a ripe old age. Stay out of trouble and do what you're told and the average person can hope to easily live past twenty.

Then why is their gravity? Why is there an innumerable amount of concepts taken directly from Earth. Archery, Roads, Mercantilism. Obsidian is a very earth taken material. As is many of the other concepts. If we are taking from earth and assuming that Zalanthas operates under earth-like concepts then we can assume something as simple as the people are like our elite athletes here on earth. And our athletes don't last very long with modern day medicine, painkillers, training techniques, and a temperate climate. I highly doubt the denizens of Zalanthas are so tough they are immune to the aches and pains of aging and having stat rolls work the way they do just makes no sense to me.

Uh, gravity is common to all worlds. Even the moons, even the asteroids (though at a far lesser measure). Even the celestial dust. The sun, by its' gravity, pulls in the other planets to form a galaxy, and so on.

A child in our minds might be 15, but in antiquity 15 year olds were hardened soldiers and even officers. Females married as soon as they could bear children which is sometimes as early as 13. This is obviously not practiced today but to think that our current modern day culture has any bearing on the cultures in game is not a good way to go about the game. Zalanthas isn't even middle-ages, it's more like a neolithic period of time.

I seriously hope you're making some sort of overstatement with this. Sure it's possible, but . . . Hell, even the spartans wouldn't have sent out a young 15 year old to war without some decent training. At the age of eighteen a spartan youth would just be leaving the agoge to become mere -reserves- in their army. Backups. Just incase the rest of the army couldn't pull through.

[Salt Merchant]

There's a class of commoner that earns its living through manufacture and trade rather than through brute labor and fighting. I see no reason why some of them wouldn't live into old age.

[Ampere]

I saw this asbestos worker smoke until he was ninety five.  Asbestos workers are superheros. I saw it.

[Ampere]

After age 30 and obviously into 40 you pretty much cannot compete in elite-level sports such as gymnastics, olympic sprinting, marathon runs, etc. I got to thinking about the life expectancy and realized it is way off for a world such as Zalanthas.

Are you sure?

http://www.rankufc.com/

--- as far as the average expectancy of a commoner, well of course --- ancient rome was something like 28 (one of the side effects of sharp metal poisoning).

[IAmJacksOpinion]

I agree with the OP to a degree. 30's a bit young. I wouldn't object to Joe commoner kicking the bucket at age 40-45 though, whereas Joe Noble might make it to 55, and not 70 or whatever the max age is.

If you read the link, it states that at the beginning of the 1900's average life expectancy was 30 - 40. This is shocking, and for some reason I have my doubts, but if you read on to modern day, it's improved up to 70. Approximately double! Why? Fuck if I know. Vitamins and higher technology or some shit. In any case, it's not due to any element found on Zalanthas. I could make the argument that Zalanthas is 10x harsher than Earth, and thus the average life expectancy should be 25, but lets just presume the counter-argument I would invariably hear ("Zalanthans - as a product of their environment - are sturdier bitchez!") is true. Still, 30-40 is surviving and adapting in a harsh environment. 50-60, now that's fucking THRIVING! Zalanthas simply doesn't have the vitamins, water, and all that crap that it needs for a body to survive that long under the harsh conditions.


Now, there was a touch on the stat rolls. It's been mercilessly debated and amended already, but it's still shit. Better, but still shit. Rather than being crappy all around, a young persons agility is now spiked up to supernatural levels. That's bullshit. A 0 - 2 year old has the kind of average dexterity to pin a leg behind their head because their bones and muscles aren't fully developed yet - NOT a fucking 15 year old.

That being said from 16 on up should be treated as adult in my opinion. 16 - 25 is the prime physical peak of a human. Not 35 - 40. After age 30, I think endurance should start dropping. Strength is residual, but not endurance. I worked in a factory with a 50 year old guy that could manually flip 250 lb steel plates right along beside me (a 20 year old), but it took him at least 2 days of rest for the soreness to wear off after a full day of doing that. Me, I could be back up and going the next morning no prob.    

If I had to draw an outline it'd be like:


Age     |     STR       |      AGI     |     END    |    WIS
13-15  |     -1                   0                0              -1          <--------- Still developing, but with boundless energy.
15-18  |      0                   0                0               -1         <----------Young, dumb, and full of cum.
19-25  |     +1                +1             +1              0           <----------Physical peak
25-35  |     +1                   0             +1              +1        <----------Older, smarter, but still tough
35 +    |      -1                 -1              -1              +2         <--------- "When I was your age......"

[IAmJacksOpinion]

Females married as soon as they could bear children which is sometimes as early as 13. This is obviously not practiced today[i/]

I beg to differ. Mwa ha ha ah ha ha haha.

[X-D]

You are all entertaining me.

First, real world statistics. The MAIN reason average life expectancy statistics went up drasticaly in the last 100 years is because of a drop in infant and child mortality...not that people were living much longer.

If you took out all the people below say, 8 for the same statistics you would find that average jumped into the mid to high sixties.

And 100 years ago...along with now, people still died when they were twenty and when they were over 100.

As to fitness. 
First, It all depends on what you are doing. Sure, gymnastics and such, normaly in the teens. Track and field in the mid twenties. The interesting thing is. Pro fighters of any type tend to go older then most other sports.

[Salt Merchant]

First, real world statistics. The MAIN reason average life expectancy statistics went up drasticaly in the last 100 years is because of a drop in infant and child mortality...not that people were living much longer.

That was a biggie, but antibiotics and sanitation (especially clean water) counted for a lot too. Infectious diseases did kill a lot of people at ages younger than sixty.

[Is Friday]

First, It all depends on what you are doing. Sure, gymnastics and such, normaly in the teens. Track and field in the mid twenties. The interesting thing is. Pro fighters of any type tend to go older then most other sports.

Experience definitely means a world of difference.

[valeria]

I would be interested in seeing how they got these numbers, such as an average life expectancy of 28.  Obviously for gladiators it would only be taking into account people who made it into adulthood in the first place, but for the average peasant?  You can do a lot of things with an 'average' life expectancy when you include child mortality, like X-D said.  The average drops when you consider that a lot of children died young, from diseases, sickness, and other things like that, which we have preventative medicine for.  Making it to young adulthood increases the chances you'll make it to older adulthood.

Just something to consider.

[Ender]

Also keep in mind the majority of zalanthans lead very repetitive, boring, and relatively safe lives inside the walls of a major city-state doing menial labor.

It's the PCs that seem to be more likely to do stupid things like leave the safety of a city-state, fight dangerous creatures, mouth off to templars, etc.

[Ampere]

I would be interested in seeing how they got these numbers, such as an average life expectancy of 28.  Obviously for gladiators it would only be taking into account people who made it into adulthood in the first place, but for the average peasant?  You can do a lot of things with an 'average' life expectancy when you include child mortality, like X-D said.  The average drops when you consider that a lot of children died young, from diseases, sickness, and other things like that, which we have preventative medicine for.  Making it to young adulthood increases the chances you'll make it to older adulthood.

Just something to consider.

I think they took the mean lifespan of everyone born during the period.

Edit: Sharp metal poisoning.

[hyzhenhok]

It's annoying that if you roll a 17 year old you're pretty much guaranteed to have worse stats than if you had rolled a 30 year old.

But life expectancy going into the 70s is fine. The main things that contribute to life expectancy are child mortality and nutrition, In the middle ages, if you limited your scope to the well-fed nobility who lived past the age of 10, you see life expectancies that match modern levels. People living into their 80s and 90s was uncommon, but not unheard of. There's no reason why a relatively wealthy commoner in Zalanthas couldn't have a high life expectancy--they can afford to keep their bellies filled, and they already achieved the most difficult part, surviving childhood.

[Blackisback]

It's annoying that if you roll a 17 year old you're pretty much guaranteed to have worse stats than if you had rolled a 30 year old.

But life expectancy going into the 70s is fine. The main things that contribute to life expectancy are child mortality and nutrition, In the middle ages, if you limited your scope to the well-fed nobility who lived past the age of 10, you see life expectancies that match modern levels. People living into their 80s and 90s was uncommon, but not unheard of. There's no reason why a relatively wealthy commoner in Zalanthas couldn't have a high life expectancy--they can afford to keep their bellies filled, and they already achieved the most difficult part, surviving childhood.

This seems like more of a code issue than a conflict of reality and fantasy. There could be any number of reasons why Zalanthas humans have such strange physical characteristics in comparison to actual humans. I'm pretty sure a wizard did it.

[FantasyWriter]

It's annoying that if you roll a 17 year old you're pretty much guaranteed to have worse stats than if you had rolled a 30 year old.

Depends on your point of view.  If you are wanting to play Conan... yea, starting him at that age would not give you the stats you wanted.
Youth's primary advantage (IRL or IG) is agility.  If you are going to roll a character at a young age, I would suggest creating a roll taking your expected stat +/- into effect.

Also stat ordering... I can't really say much without going into code mechanics that I -think- I understand about stat rolls, but play around with the same race/guild combination for a while, ordering the stats differently each time, and you should eventually get a better idea of how to order your stat priority.  Also, read the offered documentation on age, races, and guilds to help with this. Because hypothetically, if you roll a race/guild/age combo that all three get a - to strength (if such is possible)... odds are you aren't going to roll a high strength character, even if you make it your first priority.


My two 'sids,
FW

[musashi]

I'm not sure that race is factored into +\- to stats ... in the way that you're thinking FW.

What I mean is that I think that race sets the min and max for your PC's potentional states, but the guild, subguild, and age might add modifiers we as a player can readily see. For example, your halfling could have absolutely incredible strength ... my half-giant could have poor strength. My half-giant is still so much stronger than your halfling as to be laughable. Whenever we see a rating in our states like poor, good, super awesome ... it's relative to the race we're playing. You can have good strength as an elf, that just means exactly that ... your PC has good strength, for an elf. It's still probably not on par with say, dwarven/mul/half-giant strength.

Guild, subguild, and age options however, probably add some kind of bonus you can see, as you were suggesting. Where playing say ... a 14 year old merchant/linguist might get you a decent wisdom roll (I say decent because young age typically means slightly less wisdom), your strength is probably going to be poor no matter how you prioratize your stat rolls.

[FantasyWriter]

I'm not sure that race is factored into +\- to stats ... in the way that you're thinking FW.

What I mean is that I think that race sets the min and max for your PC's potentional states, but the guild, subguild, and age might add modifiers we as a player can readily see. For example, your halfling could have absolutely incredible strength ... my half-giant could have poor strength. My half-giant is still so much stronger than your halfling as to be laughable. Whenever we see a rating in our states like poor, good, super awesome ... it's relative to the race we're playing. You can have good strength as an elf, that just means exactly that ... your PC has good strength, for an elf. It's still probably not on par with say, dwarven/mul/half-giant strength.

Guild, subguild, and age options however, probably add some kind of bonus you can see, as you were suggesting. Where playing say ... a 14 year old merchant/linguist might get you a decent wisdom roll (I say decent because young age typically means slightly less wisdom), your strength is probably going to be poor no matter how you prioratize your stat rolls.

I was thinking the same thing you were thinking about race... just not worded as well. 
I just meant that you can chose a different race at an early age to better get the concept you want to work out the way you want it to.

[musashi]

Got cha!

[roughneck]

Men hit their peak for physical power in their early thirties.  That's why a lot of combat sports - ufc, submission grappling, boxing etc - are dominated by people from 25 - 35 and a lot of champs hold their belt or remain competitive around 40

[Qzzrbl]

I still don't see how a 13-year-old character can have higher chances of landing AI agility than one in their earlier twenties.

I fight alot of 13-year-olds on a regular basis.

Not much agility going on there.

[musashi]

I still don't see how a 13-year-old character can have higher chances of landing AI agility than one in their earlier twenties.

I fight alot of 13-year-olds on a regular basis.

Not much agility going on there.

LOL