Courtesans and the Tuluki Perception

[Morninglight]

I've recently been reading Jacqueline Carey's Kushiel series, and was intrigued by the notion of marques. Pleasing a man/woman could and has been considered an art form in ancient history, and with the Tuluki appreciation for mastery and art, wouldn't courtesans be accorded a great deal of respect?

As Tuluki also have caste tattoos, maybe a series of Houses similar to the ones in the Kushiel series could be formed, each with their own sigil. Or perhaps Circles, like the Bardic ones.

What do people think? I'm waiting to make a new PC. Is anyone interested in such a concept?

Thanks,

[Wintermute]

Sweet, officially sanctioned F*ck me (F*ck you?) PCs!

Heh, but seriously, go for it.

[Northerner]

From what I can recall of your playing times, it sounds -great-    :wink:

[Cuusardo]

I noticed that the Tuluki caste tattoo help file says nothing about what color sigils each House would have its employees get.  :?

[gfair]

Armasutra?

[Hoodwink]

Initially, the role you propose seems most ideal to match with a noble, however because of this blurb on Tuluk...

Nobles do not have relationships with commoners. It is unthinkable, and a monstrous violation of social protocols. Children of such alliances often become outcasts and vagabonds and their noble parent is severely reprimanded.

...it wouldn't.  Which means your clientel, as it were, are reduced to commoners.

Allanak, on the other hand, would be more than profitable for such business ventures, since the wealthiest among them are suitable candidates.

[Bestatte]

See, this is something I don't get. Okay so nobles wouldn't have "relationships" with commoners. But hiring a whore for an hour's worth of sexual pleasure isn't exactly a relationship. And a courtesean worth her 'sids would keep herself MUCH cleaner than the average commoner, and possibly even moreso than a few nobles I've encountered <snicker>.

I personally *love* the idea of courteseans. In Arm, the heirarchy of social status includes concubines and places them pretty high up on the food chain. But in truth, the term is erroneous, if I understand the function of an Armageddon concubine. They're actually courteseans. A concubine (in historical reality) is more of a body-servant or slave. A courtesean is a highly skilled and trusted non-noble companion and confidant, with sex being only one of her duties, and one which she is specifically trained in, rather than merely subjected to.

[Pungee]

Hmmm I tend to think ICly that its more or less the Nobility doesn't associate with you in a pleasant manner if you're just a commoner. i.e. here comes Lord Swizzlenose and oh look at the busty young tavern girl. Guards! Bring her to my quarters! I believe while you might get laughed at occasionally by other nobles, such behavior probably (in certain parts of the world) be considered unnoblelike. You are afterall, better than the rest aren't you?

Courteseans, while I personally find the concept a little boring, wouldn't be a bad idea. Lets look at it this way... Its a job right? Noble Houses hire commoners. It would be a job much like Chef or Guard or Stablehand. I'm not quite clear on how things are in the Northlands but I imagine that wether or not Courteseans can be hired as a specific position would more be up to the House Imm and the House Leaders.

On a side note I think It would be FANTASTIC if I were sitting in a bar and suddenly Lord Swishyfeet (closely related to Lord Swizzlenose) came in with a fawning perfumed prancing courtesean. I do believe that a great deal of commoners would be executed for offending Lord Swishyfeet's sensibilities that day... Hehe.

[A courtesan]

I'm currently playing a high priced courtesan.  I am playing the role pretty much exactly like you described (trying to anyway) but when in the hall of kings I pointed to Allanak despite making the character specifically for Tuluk.  

While Tuluk -is- the center of Zalanthas' artististry, I highly doubt a high priced concubine would be able to make a living, specifically because Nobility in Tuluk does not, under any circumstances, lie with commoners. Playing this role, I did not want to be someone any aide or bored guard could afford, I made her with nobility and the filthy rich in mind.

Despairingly, 20th century beliefs (such as hiring prostitutes being tabboo or bad, that prostituting yourself makes you nothing but a pathetic, desperate looser, that being a whore [even a high priced one] is not only dangerous but makes any client of one, one step closer into the grave) are still very much alive in Zalanthas.  The handful of "supporters" I have encountered has been alarmingly low and the as always, there are those who openly roll their eyes around her and even more that speak in whispers behind her back and think she is not aware.

I made this character knowing full well that a large portion of people would openly despise her, for me, that is half the fun.  I wish you the best of luck should you decide to make her.

[Midland]

Courtesans arent just for nobles and that's a concept that alot just automatically lump in that direction. Rich guards, Merchant House family, the husband that doesnt think his wife is exciting anymore and perhaps nobles on the sly would most likely use them.

I am sure no noble would want any to KNOW he had a sleezy vice but part of the fun of a courtesan would be keeping her clientele secret from most. Like any role, it's what you make of it and those that employ the individual that, in the end, decide how they enjoy the roleplay of their chosen profession.

[Bestatte]

I guess I just don't see it as a "sleazy vice" in the genre of Zanthalas. It seems no less sleazy than the need to take a shit, or burp, or breathe.

Remember, sexual arousal is a natural function of the body. and it's only our puritanical real-life morals that put any particular value on it. I can't imagine why it would possibly be considered sleazy, or a vice, for anyone with the 'sids to take a courtesean on hire.

In addition, a courtesean can be an extremely valueable source of information - pillow talk and all that. In fact, it reinforces the notion that of COURSE northern nobles would want to have them...and maybe even out-do each other one which one they hire is the best, prettiest, smartest, most elegant, etc... while all the time using their courteseans to stab each other in the back, politically.

As I said, the sex itself is only one of the myriad of things a courtesean is good at. Courteseans are not street whores. They are more like geishas, highly trained and specialized socio-political servants.

[Bakha]

In fact, it reinforces the notion that of COURSE northern nobles would want to have them...

You all are free to debate this until the cows come home; however, that's not going to change the way Northern society views sexual relations between commoners and nobility. It is outlined in the documentation, and it's going to stay that way.

Cultural mores and traditions don't always make sense, but they do have a root cause. In Tuluk, the taboo surrounding such relationships are likely a result of
1) A holdover from the "old" days of Tuluk, much like the caste tattoos.

2) A result of the proximity that nobility and commoners shared during the Occupation. Threatened by the possibility of completely merging with the commoners, they codified the differences by making it taboo to have relations with them. Like it or not, sexual relations breed familiarity and narrow the gap between the classes (at least on Armageddon, they do).

From an OOC, game-planning standpoint:
1) It's a cultural distinction between Tuluk and Allanak that we, as staff, wished to draw when planning out the flavor of Tuluk. It was a personal preference, and I'm sorry if it offends or dismays anyone. We had our reasons. It could have just as easily gone the other way, but it didn't.

2) There is no number 2, I just wanted to make things look neat.


Once again, I'm not trying to stifle debate. I'm just sensing that there's an attitude among certain players of, "This doesn't make sense and isn't realistic." I wished to explain why things are as they are.

Cheers,
Bakha

[Bestatte]

Thanks for clarifying, Bakha! I know the docs imply a lot of things, but sometimes the "whys and wherefores" need to be spelled out for people to understand the facts.

Why I understand the justification ICly behind it, from a zanthalan historical perspective, I still think the basic concept of the existence of courtesans makes sense world-wide, plus it encourages more PC interpersonal relationships rather than nobles having to be stuck primarily with virtual NPCs since Winrothol and Tenneshi would not be likely candidates for sharing a bed (faded to black or otherwise).

I'm not arguing for a change - I just like debate on general principal

[EvilRoeSlade]

Why not have a Tuluki courtesian that the noble doesn't actually have sex with?  With the way you describe them, Bestatte, I don't see why that isn't a possibility.  The courtesian would still have to look pretty and clean and all that, maybe the noble could even use her as a heh, favor for any commoners he deals with, as well as his employees.

[marko]

Just another thought about why Northern nobles would avoid any sexual interaction with commoners - dilution of blood.

After the occupation, the northern Houses managed to survive by keeping their blood as pure as possible.  With the freeing of the North these Houses maintain their claim of noblility by the strength of their blood.  Spreading their 'godlike' seed around to commoners is a transgression beyond measure.  

A courtesan in the North would never engage in a sexual act with a noble (assuming the nobles are all played to the rules laid out) but they could entertain the high ranking members of the common caste.

There is a question of pleasure slaves - but since slaves are viewed as objects and not real people this doesn't necessarily contradict the maintaining purity.  I'd imagine that all pleasure slaves are kept sterile somehow to prevent any unwanted results.

[Cuusardo]

The whole "This doesn't make sense and isn't realistic" concept should not apply.  This MUD is a RP fantasy world, NOT real life!

[Jacques]

Just thought I'd share a somewhat bizarre thought, since marko brought up the concept of "pleasure slaves". Everyone remember "Coming to America"? If not, don't worry - you didn't miss THAT much. But for those who ARE familiar with the movie, remember the "bathers"? I always kinda thought that a pleasure slave would be viewed somewhat like that, particularly in the North - just another fixture, albeit a very pleasant one (or three, or five, or whatever) to have around.

As for Morninglight's idea of a courtesan PC, I have seen both good and bad examples of this on other games. Ironically enough, it seems in my experience to depend (as "a courtesan" implied) not so much on the talent of the PC, but on the ability of the OTHER PCs with whom the courtesan interacts to do so in an IC and reasonably mature fashion. When it is done well, and those around the courtesan behave appropriately, it is a LOT of fun. When it is not... well, let's just all be thankful Arm actually lets you DIE. Other games do not... no matter how you might wish for it. :twisted:

The only other suggestion I would have (and I'm not sure how feasible this is - my character doesn't make NEAR enough to keep a courtesan, so this is not self-serving, even though having my own courtesan would be WAY COOL) would be to make a "mid-priced" courtesan. Instead of the nobility, find patrons (possibly ahead of time) among the leaders of the Merchant Houses. While not quite the prestige, it'd be a similar concept, and might give you a better variety of options, particularly for Tuluk.

[Midland]

I guess I just don't see it as a "sleazy vice" in the genre of Zanthalas. It seems no less sleazy than the need to take a shit, or burp, or breathe.

Look at it this way, why would some noble that has some of the BEST looking slave women to be found to satisfy his every need/desire/want. Why would he want to go to someone that's putting out to every Tom, Dick and Harry that has alot of sid?  For the sleazy factor. That's what I meant about a sleazy vice.

Bakha, I wasnt speaking about Tuluki nobles but just nobles in general.  

Personally, I dont see many nobles taking on courtesans or such as they have their slaves. I see courtesans for the rich Merchant House family whom are -not- noble at all but just rich boys/girls. Courtesan doesnt mean it's just a female serving man thing. It can be a female serving female, male serving female or male.  Of course, they might be called something else.

[crymerci]

Disclaimer: the following are only my opinions and definitions, obviously definitions vary from person to person and real-life perceptions don't always carry over to Zalanthas.

:arrow: Whore or prostitute: Someone who has sexual intercourse with multiple partners for money, gifts, or favors. Generally paid by the hour.

:arrow:  Courtesan: Someone who has sexual intercourse and/or provides companionship to multiple partners.  A high-class prostitute, not loyal to any one patron in particular, but generally discreet (at least on the surface). Often distinguished from a common whore by training/ability in etiquette, music, massage, dance, etc. to be able to entertain on more than a sexual level. Generally paid by the hour, or by the night; longer-term arrangements are less common.

:arrow: Mistress/paramour: One who provides companionship and sexual favors, generally in a serially monogamous fashion. Their rent and expenses would often be paid by their provider (in lieu of cash), and they would also receive gifts etc.  Loyalty is generally assumed for the duration of the relationship, which might be anywhere from several months to a lifetime.

:arrow: Concubine: Very similar to a mistress, except that a concubine is generally a member of their provider's household, rather than maintaining a seperate household, and would usually be kept on for life, even if their role changed.

:arrow: Pleasure slave: An object to be used, which has a lot of nifty features, excellent training, and is very valuable, but is nonetheless an object.