Was the way fiddled with?

Started by Travel Cake, June 07, 2003, 11:54:41 PM

I like the change.
quote="CRW"]i very nearly crapped my pants today very far from my house in someone else's vehicle, what a day[/quote]

I gotta go against the vocal majority and say that I totally support this change now, having thought about the pros and cons. Having played characters that are the 'vagabond' or 'runaway' sorts, I know how annoying it is that people can suddenly just 'know' you exist because oops, they can get that 'you're unable to reach their mind' message, so they knew you weren't dead or offline. So boom they track you down and know to look for you. I've also witnessed characters be hunted down and killed, due to abuse of the knowledge gleaned from the Way.

I do agree that this system could be cumbersome and make it harder for people to stay in touch from Allanak to Tuluk - but really - is that SUCH a bad thing? Considering how far apart, ICly, the centers of civilization are supposed to be - it'll make messengers, actual travel, more important, add some sense of distance that really shoulda been there in the first place.

If Sarge can't find that Trooper's mind, what's to say he -isn't- shovelling shit over there in that corner? Why does the OOC knowledge of whether or not he's on or offline need to matter? And woe to the Trooper if his alibi is seen through and he was actually spotted in a tavern when he claims he was shoveling the latrines. In a House? Post on the board some daily/weekly IC meeting times to brief people on happenings and what's coming up.. maybe this will actually place importance on interaction now, instead of just rounding everyone up by the Way.


As I said in my original post in this thread, I would just suggest giving it some time - a week or two - to try it out and see how it goes, then see if we haven't got used to it. The Way isn't supposed to be an IM service, which under the old system, is sort of what it ended up being.


Anyhow, this turned into a long rambling post, because I've been up for 27 hours. :)

QuoteAs I said in my original post in this thread, I would just suggest giving it some time - a week or two - to try it out and see how it goes, then see if we haven't got used to it. The Way isn't supposed to be an IM service, which under the old system, is sort of what it ended up being.

Acctually, back then the way was really difficult to reach someone, it wasn't much of any sort of IM service. I have no problem with making it harder to reach someone, or being easier, or adding in things like distance making it harder... But I do have a problem with not being able to tell if someone is online.

Most the time, I look for someone rather they are online or not, and if I was hunting someone down I don't think knowing rather or not they are online would help any. Still, have to find them, and most the time I'd probably save the major searching when someone is online, because the on an OOC level, I'd like a chance to find them. Why scour every where, when no matter where you look you won't find them? Even if you look in the place they would be, since there character is still in the world.

Being offline is an OOC thing and should be treated as such. When they are offline you shouldn't act like you can expect interaction, because it won't happen. It's something that has to be worked around. This little thing doesn't change having to work around someone being offline, it just makes it a big hassle, and this is OOCily, not IC.

And if someone is offline, you should work around that. And not start accusing them from not doing what they are supposed to be doing. Thats to be left when they are logged in and acctually skipping. And how could his alibi be seen through and he was seen at the bar, when he wasn't seen anyplace? Hmm... Seems alittle screwed up. You shouldn't get into trouble because you didnt' do something while offline, and how it is now, you can't tell either way. I can see people are going to skip more often when there are circumstances that make contacting difficult because then their superiours won't be able to contact them and think they are offline. And if the barrier uses the same, you can't reach their mind, they start using that, an IC thing, to act like they are offline, an OOC thing.

I think any problem because of abuse, is because noone knows a damn thing about the way. There is no acctually set things of it. At all. There isn't any suggested information anywhere of how to act when someone is offline. Blah blah blah. From what I've seen, most problems in Arm's past is dealt mostly with informing the masses. If you think this is going to stop people who hunt you only when offline, they could very well just spend more time waying. If they contact you they hunt you. It just means the people abusing things rely even more on the way. While the change is a big hassle for other things.

Creeper who is probably abusing the way the whole time, but wouldn't know if he is.
21sters Unite!

I think part of the biggest problem is that people are lumping offline with dead in the same messaging.

The -only- messaging I'd like to see separate is when someone is offline, but whose character either exists, or has existed up until fairly recently. People who are dead, who have been dead a relatively short time, would still have their "essence" floating around from an IC perspective and could therefore be "unreachable." People who have been dead for game-years, THEY could be put in with the offline messaging.

The contact command would run a search of online characters, then link-dead characters, then sleeping/unconscious characters, then characters who have existed at some point within the past "x" real-life period of time (a month seems reasonable). The database would only have to be searched back that far to find a person's name before it came up with the "That person cannot be contacted no matter how hard you try."

Anyone else, such as misspelled names, the assorted "contact superman" silliness, people who have been dead since the north-south war, and people who are not logged on would have that "That person cannot be contacted, period" message.

This way, the only thing we'd know is whether or not someone is logged in, or if we might have misspelled their name and tried to contact someone who has never existed in the history of the game.

And yeah I know that knowing if someone can be online is abuseable. One of my characters was killed at a particular time because the murderer made sure a certain other person was -not- online first. And yeah it sucks, and yeah I was apeshit pissed about it at the time.

But even though I was a victim of this kind of abuse, I STILL think it benefits people who use the system fairly more often than it benefits those willing to abuse it.

A possible suggestion to make at least some people happy while maintaining the sudden need to have the Way politically correct is to maybe make it so you CAN successfully contact people that arnt online, as long as they are alive. That way it could just be that they cant respond back. Might make at least a few parties happy... that way your not wasting hours trying to contact someone.

Well, seeing as I didn't plow through all 4 pages of this thread, it is decidedly possible that my post may be little more than rehash of a dozen previously posted opinions.

Nonetheless, my thoughts on the matter are this:
A> I think it is a bit premature to voice immediate complaints, as no one player has yet had enough time to fully analyze the various features included with this change.  The initially-visible effects seem to have elicited a fairly negative response, sure. But my advice (and what I am doing, myself) is to take a week or two and feel the change out. That seems to me to be a rational and sensible approach. Yes, everyone is free to voice their opinions. I just feel that an uninformed opinion makes for a poor argument.

B> Have a bit of faith in the Staff. Obviously, they are not going to implement a change whose sole purpose is to piss off their dedicated playerbase. It is, I believe, the desire of the staff to see the mud thrive and prosper. Obviously, bearing this in mind, they will not be conducting a universal action that results in mass negativity from the playerbase. Not unless they have a more developed agenda than is readily evident. Ie, that this feature has some benefits on the back-end that aren't fully realized yet.
Don't forgive and never forget; Do unto others before they do unto you; and third and most importantly, keep your eye on your friends, because your enemies will take care of themselves.   -J.R. Ewing

Quote from: "Tiernan"All that the old message did was provide OOC information which players immediately applied towards their character's decisions and behavior.  That's all it was being used for, plain and simple.  It's not a playability issue, it's an abuse issue.  

As for playability, I believe the change will actually foster more interaction.  Without being sarcastic, would it really be such a bad thing to get out and about and look for your friend?  Maybe while you're looking for them at their favorite hangout you'll run into some fresh new faces along the way and get involved in some of the other plotlines and interactions that are happening out in the world.  Why sit in your favorite quit-spot alone and limit yourself to playing with only a couple friends?

Some of us actually used the ooc information for our own decisions, not just our characters'.  I am not a solo player, and I am also not going to interact with people my character wouldn't interact with.  If there are only 4 people in the entire gameworld I want to RP with, or with whom my character has a connection, then I want to know if they are online or not.  To be frank, there are certain roles that I will be much less likely to play now (slave, for example).

Quote from: "Tiernan"I just don't subscribe to the "it hinders the playability of the game" argument here, quite the opposite.  I think people who hide themselves away and only stick around when their clique is online are denying themselves and the other roleplayers in the game the opportunity for some fantastic interactions.

Yes, hiding away does limit things for other people.  I've been on the bad end of that when I don't see anyone around to interact with.  At the same time, none of us are obliged to make the gameworld enjoyable for everyone.  Yes, the game is cliquey.  It is made up predominantly of clans, what else is it going to be?  Some roles more social than others.  I don't want to see everyone in the same mold.

Quote from: "Tiernan"Also, with the other changes made to psionics the Way should become a great deal easier to use.  Contacting someone should not fail as often as it used to, for those who use the Way regularly.  The drain from using the Way should also be less severe.  I think the Way will become far more useful as a result.  This can only have a positive outcome for the game and players alike.

I think it's an interesting change.  I don't think I like it, but I'll give it a shot. At this point, however, I think I would rather spend a half hour trying to contact someone who I know I can actually reach, and risk passing out during the contact.
Quote from: tapas on December 04, 2017, 01:47:50 AM
I think we might need to change World Discussion to Armchair Zalanthan Anthropology.

*Note* After offending somebody with my -JOKE-, I have decided that humor is not allowed in this thread, and I have hence removed my remark I made. I am a very bad boy, and should be spanked with a wet noodle.

Quote from: "Forest Junkie"Look everybody...

Just suck it up. :twisted:

Bite me. I'm entitled to my opinion.
Quote from: tapas on December 04, 2017, 01:47:50 AM
I think we might need to change World Discussion to Armchair Zalanthan Anthropology.

While I understand why it was taken out, I believe that additional skills or other such options should become available to those who wish to use them. Primarily, the option to save contacts while off-line is excellent. Also, instances where people do not exist or are long dead should, by chance, give a message to that effect. I do like the change because it effects hunting down people, and I like that I never really know where they are. But playability does come into view here, and it does greatly reduce the ability to congregate with your friends and so forth. It is, in my opinion, a mixed bag no matter which version of the Way stayed in the game.

That said, in the end, what if we did not have the Way period? We would have adapted to it, and we will adapt to this as well. This is Armageddon, and the Way is a lovely feature in its most basic form. Let us see where this takes us.
Wynning since October 25, 2008.

Quote from: Ami on November 23, 2010, 03:40:39 PM
>craft newbie into good player

You accidentally snap newbie into useless pieces.


Discord:The7DeadlyVenomz#3870

I remember a time when you couldn't discern whether a person was online or not by using the way.  The message was then changed maybe a year ago to reflect whether you could contact the person or not.

The game really didn't seem easier or more fun because of this change, infact it may have made me a little lazier.  I am glad the change occured because I feel it accurately represents how I imagine the way to work.   I honestly don't think it will truly hamper playability as much as everyone thinks.

I was still playing happily well before I could tell whether people were online with the way.
man
/mæn/

-noun

1.   A biped, ungrateful.

Most of the debate against this change thus far sounds like "I was using this OOC knowledge IC'ly and I don't want to give that up."  While I very much appreciate the recognition that this was, in fact, OOC knowledge and that it was being heavily used to influence game play, at the same time this is one major reason for the change.

What we would like to see now is just exactly how this -does- influence the game.  Your various predictions have been noted, mind, but it's time to put it all to the test.  So, feel free to comment on, but realize a reversion will not be made immediately -- still, as with all things, it will be subject to ongoing consideration.

Some of the other additions/alternatives suggested are interesting.. I dunno how feasible, but interesting anyway.  I, for one, will have to mull them over before making a serious comment I think.

-Savak
i]May the fleas of a thousand kanks nestle in your armpit.  -DustMight[/i]

Ok, on day two of using the 'new' way, Still don't like it for the same reasons I've stated before, the single basicly nul message on a fail.

But the other 'fixes' seem to be working well, but one new thing, though not being able to contact NPC's might cut down on the amount of 'wrong numbers' I'm kind of missing it. Now and again in the past I've needed to contact an npc, shrug.
A gaunt, yellow-skinned gith shrieks in fear, and hauls ass.
Lizzie:
If you -want- me to think that your character is a hybrid of a black kryl and a white push-broom shaped like a penis, then you've done a great job

I will wait until I've played with the Way a bit to see what changes beyond what has been posted about being able to tell if someone is online or not to make my full opinion.

However, that being said, I already have a very, very good idea of how things will change, if all that was done was remove the OOC way of knowing whether someone is online or not.  I would surmise that most of the older players and imms do, or at least should know this as well, as this is the second time this has happened.

To refresh people's memories, there was a time when you got the same message for someone online or offline, but you got a wait state if it was someone who was online, and you did not get a wait state if it was someone offline (this was changed, um, around the time stun points came into the game, can't remember if it was right before or right after that).  I don't remember any discussion about the change on the board then, maybe it wasn't a very well known trick.

When the change in messaging came back in, a few years later, I assumed it was precisely so that you could tell if someone was online or offline.  While I can't remember off the top of my head if there was discussion on the board about it or not, I tend towards thinking there was.

Having been through (at least from what has been posted about the change so far) precisely this change once before (taking away the OOC knowledge of if someone is online or offline) my opinion is that this change will only minimally impact characters, but that it has a greater impact on players, given my particular playstyle, at least.

My character is not going to act differently if I know someone is online or offline.  To do otherwise is, well, bad, IMHO.  It will impact players though, especially those with limited amounts of time to play.  Those sessions when I might only have 15 mins to log in, and would only really do so because I have something specific I want to accomplish, are gone.  I wouldn't bother to even log in.  Not everyone has a couple of hours to spend on the game, in a row.  Having the knowledge we did helped with this, and helped those players with time constraints accomplish things.  Using the OOC knowledge of this part of the code for OOC decisions seems fine to me.

Having been through this once, I lean slightly towards letting the players have the OOC knowledge, and sorting out the problem people on an individual basis.  The ones abusing this are the ones probably abusing other aspects of OOC knowledge.  By abuse I mean letting the OOC knowledge influence IC events.  I come out on the side of allowing the OOC knowledge so that it can influence the player's real life decision's.  RL is more important than the game, always and in every case.

I think there are a couple of things that could be done to change my opinion on this one aspect of the changes made.  Making it easier to contact PCs (and NPCs, sometimes you have the wrong name/keyword) and ging a different and clear message if someone (PC or NPC) is barriered is what I can think of.  Or letting me play a psi!  But then everyone else still has the same problem.
Evolution ends when stupidity is no longer fatal."

Quote from: "Savak"While I very much appreciate the recognition that this was, in fact, OOC knowledge and that it was being heavily used to influence game play, at the same time this is one major reason for the change.

Quote from: "Twilight"My character is not going to act differently if I know someone is online or offline. To do otherwise is, well, bad, IMHO.

Now, theres a problem with it. Of course the OOC thing of someone logging out is going to change IC things. It just depends on how you do it if it is bad or not.

If you wait tell someones PC guard is offline and then kill them, thats bad. If you wait tell someone is online and thats the ONLY time you look for them period, thats probably bad. If you wait untill you know someone is offline to rob there house, thats probably bad, but all that doesn't mean that people logging out and that changing things is going to be all terribly bad.

Lets say your planning a trip into the desert. Your three buddies end up having to log out even though ICily they were going on this trip. Are you still going to go and RP as if they are there virtually? No. A) Because it'd be bad to RP others characters, and B) You'd probably get raped up the ass by a bunch of big, rabid ape-like bugs.

Another thing, you and your IC pals always hit the bars at night. Sit at your table and talk. If they are logged out. Are you still going to show up and sit at your table and talk to your virtual pals that are offline? Probably not. Your going to do something else even though it's not the common thing for your character to do. Or maybe your whole clan is offline. Are you still going to go through a clan meeting all with virtual people? Maybe go spar with virtual people. It's a PC only clan, all the PCs are offline, but they would be at training. So you should be sparring with them, yes? If not, your letting the OOC knowledge that they are offline effect IC things.

Shrug, maybe I'm just thinking way out there, but this little change isn't going to change the fact that OOC knowledge of someone logged out is going to change IC RP. Of course it is. It's just going to be alot more frustrating, because you can't tell even if you fail at the contact because you suck or you fail because their mind is "occupied"(Meaning any reason why you can't reach them). And it's going to be even more OOCily frustrating because it effects short term planning. Alot of everything is going to go into long term planning unless everyone some how already gathers together... Like some predecided gather at 8 PM GMT every Sunday at this place and see if there are enough people to go do something. Again... maybe it's just me being a big twinky cream filled yellow bread thing.

Creeper
21sters Unite!

OKAY OKAY OKAY. Don't worry. Enough of my ranting. On to my suggestion finally! *Loud cheering and standing ovation*

Alright, here it goes...

Complete and utter failure due to failed skill check/doesn't exist.
>You are unable to find their mind.

Fail because they are offline/dead/asleep/shield/under mindbender power/in tek's tower/other related anomalies.
>You find their mind but are unable to establish a connection.

Less of a fail then complete and utter fail, but they are online(In other words acctually reachable).
>You find their mind, but the connection is too weak.

Success while they are online(You connect and are able to send psi's and what not).
>You find their mind, and establish a connection.

Thats about it. Although might need some changes... It seems reasonable. Your able to tell if they are online, but doesn't mean they are offline if you get something else. Possible for a complete failure either way, and a connection.

[EDIT]
For anyone that doesn't understand, you lump everything into four categories, Complete Failure(You suck, this can be left out), Failure w/o Being Reachable, Failure w/Being Reachable, and Connection. Thats it.
[/EDIT]

Any comments/remarks welcome, as long as they are some sort of praise. Criticism isn't welcome, remember I am superiour in everyway, so you have no room to talk. :twisted:

Creeper
21sters Unite!

Christ already, just let it go.
quote="CRW"]i very nearly crapped my pants today very far from my house in someone else's vehicle, what a day[/quote]

Quote from: "creeper386"Fail because they are offline/dead/asleep/shield/under mindbender power/in tek's tower/other related anomalies.
>You find their mind but are unable to establish a connection.

I agree just let it go. Anyway the logic is flawed. In the above case one can type "contact <anything>" and it will say that you found it's mind.

QuoteI agree just let it go. Anyway the logic is flawed. In the above case one can type "contact <anything>" and it will say that you found it's mind.

Acctually...

QuoteComplete and utter failure due to failed skill check/doesn't exist.
>You are unable to find their mind.
Maybe I should have been clearer, but the doesn't exist means it DOESN'T EXIST. No PC with the name/keyword, and no NPC with the name/keyword, no nothing with the name/keyword.

And just remember next time. Everyone. If your told just to give it up already you should give it up. You shouldn't ever suggest anything ever, ever again because someone might not like it. To that whole thing, I say shut the fuck up. If you don't like it don't fucking worry about reading it or in the least don't take even more time to reply just to say, give it up already.

Creeper
21sters Unite!

Well, I like whatever the Staff did to the code. For some reason today was the very first time I used the Way and didn't have to try thirty-six times before getting through. Ok, so thirty-six times is an exageration. But you get the idea. It took a lot of stun (more than usual in my opinion) but it worked. And I didn't have to try over and over again. So whatever the Staff did. I like it. Contact was a largely useless command for most of my characters since it never seemed to work. It worked nicely. I like that. Bravo to the Staff  8)

Well, it's been a week. I find that I have adjusted to the change. How odd. A week ago I thought it was impossible.
It takes two hands to open this safe. The manager has only one.


What I like about the new change:

It's easier to succeed if the person is there, conscious, awake, not blocked.

What I don't like about the new change:

1) It's easier to succeed if the person is there, conscious, awake, not blocked. I don't like that, because now I have no idea if I'm succeededing -only- because it's been changed, or if it might be -also- because my skill boosted as a result of regular use.

2) I have no way of knowing if the person I'm trying to contact *unsuccessfully* is not logged on, or if they're simply blocked, unconscious, asleep, dead, or just plain thick-headed. All of those possible reasons for failure are IC reasons, except one, and I still want that one to be separate from the IC ones, for the reasons I've stated in the past - that it's OOC information, not IC information.

So my opinion hasn't changed a bit, and it remains as it was for the same reason I posted when it first came out.

I still would like to see some separation made between the IC reasons for a failure and the one and only OOC reason - that the person simply is not logged in to the game.

Shrug, still dislike it this way And now pretty much only use the way when the person is in sight or to reply to somebody who has contacted my char, at least I know they are about then, and even then I'm only try twice if they have already broken contact.
A gaunt, yellow-skinned gith shrieks in fear, and hauls ass.
Lizzie:
If you -want- me to think that your character is a hybrid of a black kryl and a white push-broom shaped like a penis, then you've done a great job

My opinions still the same. And although I don't use it that much... I succeed far less then I did before... Basically, the way doesn't pop into my head as a way to comunicate anymore.

And like everyone said about the opinion changing after using it. My opinion about differenciating different failures still has not change, and well not change. Although I can see why you wouldn't want to be able to tell FOR SURE rather or not they were logged in... Thats why I suggested the idea that noone cared to look at and just told me to shut up over. Which I still say screw you, just so you know.

Anyways, I personally see it as not being any better... Was quite good at using the way before and now have more troubles... And it costs WAY more stun then before it seems. Oh well. My opinion doesn't matter it the slightest. So it's all cool.


Creeper
21sters Unite!