Was the way fiddled with?

[flurry]

I have to agree that this change concerns me somewhat, but I'll reserve judgement until I see how the world works with the change for a few days.  

One comment: I really disliked the "You've never heard of that person." message (or whatever it was).   This can be especially jarring as a newbie - when it happens right after you met the person or about your closest friend.   Of course - after you play a day or two, you know what it really means.   But still - it was kind of silly to get the feedback that you've never heard of someone that you might have known for IC years.   Even if they're dead - you've heard of them!

One thing that I've done before (which is probably worth discouraging) is logging in, checking if certain people are online with the way, and then logging out if they're not.    It's still not impossible, but would just take a little longer.  

One thought I had is if there were a random different fail message that only showed up when someone was offline (but not on every contact attempt).

e.g.

>contact bjork
You are unable to reach their mind.
>contact bjork
You are unable to reach their mind.
>contact bjork
Their mind eludes your reach.

So you still don't get the instant gratification, but you have a chance (maybe on the first try if you're lucky) of getting the OOC hint that - hey, they're not around.

[spawnloser]

Oh, Creeper, I didn't mean to suggest that you were saying anything other than you were saying...I was just voicing my opinion, which, no matter what anyone else has said, is still that an OOC thing like being logged out should not affect the playability of the game and/or IC concerns.

[Dan]

The imm's fixed a bug as far as im concerned.

I think people have relied on the way for far too long anyway. A mindbender should rely on the way, not your average house guard. I am all for, 100% with this change.

It will now be as easy as it should be to rebel and become deserter from a merchant/noble house, or from the 'byn.

I think you shouldn't be able to tell who is on and who isn't. Roll with the punches, deal with it. I think it'd be twinkish for someone to sit somewhere for more than a few attempts at contacting someone, if you can't reach thier mind its because they are too far away, sleeping, unconscious, busy, have a barrier up. The whole "they are or are not online" line of thinking was the wrong way to go in the first place. Their characters are around whether or not the player is, they just fall to the background, so to speak.

As for contacting someone you -know- is dead... "You are unable to reach their mind." still fits perfectly. You are unable to reach their mind because mayby their mind no longer exists, which is why you can't reach it, its a dried out husk under some dune. Why would you try to contact someone you know is dead anyway? Ic'ly that is.

Now we will have more use for bounty hunters. Who can actively search for people who have run away, or are missing. Because now you can't just try to way them and instantly know whether they are offline or online.

I could sit here all morning, coming up with pros for this change, and probably sit here just as long coming up with cons. The thing is that there are pros and cons to most changes. I say, don't fear change, embrace it. This is a good change, and as far as I am concerned, the imms simply fixed a bug. Kudos to the imms on this one.

[Sanvean]

Some changes were made, and I'll let the coder who made them speak (or not) to specifics. I think you will, as time progresses, find the Way significantly easier to use, particularly with experienced characters, in a way that makes it more playable and less frustrating.

As for the messages - there are pros and cons. Unfortunately, the former system was abusable - and was being abused in a way the current version can't.

I suggest seeing how it works for a week and then assessing it, rather than reacting immediately. Some of those changes won't be evident immediately.

[Red Ranger]

I have no problem with the changes.  Sanvean writes that there is more to the changes than meet the eye, but even if there weren't added functionality I'm in favor of the changes.  

I don't recall how long ago it was, but it couldn't have been longer than 2 years or so ago when all failures at contact gave the same message.  I don't think that PCs then were all loners or were all constantly frustrated.  In fact, I was shocked when the system that is now being missed was implemented because being able to know whether or not someone is online in such an easy manner is very OOC.  I like my Armageddon pure.

Red Ranger

[X-D]

Sorry, I'm sure after a week I will still hate it, at least as long as you can sit there trying to contact someone with no idea why it is not going through...Hell, I would be happy with a catch all for offline, dead, sleeping, barrior up message. And another for you just failed to make contact.


Lump all of the "you cannot reach this persons mind no matter how hard you try because they are alseep,dead,out cold,sleeping,offline" into one message, that way you have no real idea if they are on or not but at least you know to not keep trying forever. and just to try later.

Then have a different message for normal fail...Though..hhhmmm, yes, this would work, have the check on success or fail before the check on the targets condition.
contact tektolnes
You attempt to make contact but your mind is rather fuzzy at the moment
that is failed skill check
You would get it regardless of the targets condition because it check for fail or succeed first
so, try again

contact tektolnes
You are unable to reach his mind.
the sleeping/dead/KO'd/offline/barrior message
You do not know what the reason is but You can't contact them at this time, try again later.

contact tektolnes
You reach the mind the incredibly powerful...Your mind suddenly implodes
BEEP!
mantis

Oh, sorry, best to not actually try and contact Tek I think.

And you could vary the fail messages too, that would be interesting also.
You are unable to maintain concentration.
You cannot focus.
etc.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Having lost a character to misuse of the way in a manner that is no longer possible, I am completely in favor of the change.  Thats all.

[Soldierinarms]

I had people tracking me down to...knowing that for sure I was on...without ever contacting me just by getting the message unable to contact.

So I agree that people want to see the old way BECAUSE they could abuse it.

And besides maybe this will get some of them nobles out and exercising their legs!

[Tiernan]

My bet on why the change was introduced was precisely for the reason everyone is complaining - you don't know whether the person is trying to contact is actually on or not.  To us, it's an advantage, but in reality from the IMM perspective, it's a way of getting OOC information from the game code.  It affects the way players make decisions to know whether a person is on or off.  

Thank you gfair, that's absolutely correct.  The "You've never heard of that person." message was inherently wrong in the first place.  Of course you've heard of them, you're actively trying to find them.  The message needed to be changed to something more appropriate.  "You are unable to reach their mind." pretty much describes the results accurately.

The only thing the different messages gave was OOC info.  There's nothing IC-related about the different messages at all.  Either you find them or you do not.  Their online status should never have been revealed and I firmly believe that this change is the correct one.  All that the old message did was provide OOC information which players immediately applied towards their character's decisions and behavior.  That's all it was being used for, plain and simple.  It's not a playability issue, it's an abuse issue.  

As for playability, I believe the change will actually foster more interaction.  Without being sarcastic, would it really be such a bad thing to get out and about and look for your friend?  Maybe while you're looking for them at their favorite hangout you'll run into some fresh new faces along the way and get involved in some of the other plotlines and interactions that are happening out in the world.  Why sit in your favorite quit-spot alone and limit yourself to playing with only a couple friends?  I just don't subscribe to the "it hinders the playability of the game" argument here, quite the opposite.  I think people who hide themselves away and only stick around when their clique is online are denying themselves and the other roleplayers in the game the opportunity for some fantastic interactions.

Also, with the other changes made to psionics the Way should become a great deal easier to use.  Contacting someone should not fail as often as it used to, for those who use the Way regularly.  The drain from using the Way should also be less severe.  I think the Way will become far more useful as a result.  This can only have a positive outcome for the game and players alike.

[CindyLou]

well i tried and the drain's exactly the same as it was before.

yeah i agree people should get out and stop sitting at tables or couches for hours doing nothin else but try to contact people.

but if youre trying to contact someone who you know is out in the desert just tryin to make sure he made it to the next town ok, it'd be nice to have some way of knowing if youre not contacting them because their not logged on in the first place.

that way you have some idea of how to rp it out. if your new to the way you have -no- way of knowing it your failing for OOC reasons or not, and thats the biggest issue I have.

the second one is that people who are like me and dont have good way skills might just add more names to they're buddy lists and that ends up being the same thing as getting a "You've never hard of the person' message.

so I don't really see how this will solve the problem.

[spawnloser]

Okay, I agree with many of the reasons for the change...I still can't wait to see people getting ripped a new one by their Lord or Templar masters for not getting ahold of people and not being able to justify it.  At least getting the message that let you know the person was offline allowed for some justification.  I still think a better compromise would be, as someone else suggested, to have a check for success/fail and then, if successful, give a different message if the person is offline, as if they were asleep or blocking, letting you know for certain that you aren't going to be able to reach the person.  Make it so that you can't really tell that the person is offline, but at least give you more information than the default fail message.  Granted, I'm willing to go on some faith, as I haven't seen enough Way action since the reboot and Sanvaen did say that some changes wouldn't be evident right away, but that's just my initial reaction...tempered by the debate thus far.

[ShaLeah]

Not so long ago, the Way gave the following message regardless of whether or not your target was in game:
You have never heard of that person.

That used to drive me insane.
I've never heard from that person?!? I was just with them!

I was thrilled when you they changed the message to:
You are unable to reach their mind.

As a player I would love to see different messages (as it was suggested before) for different situations.

Suggestions?

When a person is logged out.
Contacting <sdesc> is just too difficult. (Should cost a fraction of the usual attempt)

When a person is logged in but you can't reach them.
You are unable to reach their mind. (I'm used to it, it should take the usual amount of stun points)

When a person is stunned or sleeping.
You feel a very weak contact with <sdesc>'s mind but can not get a proper connection. (this should only take partial stun points and not require a 'break' to separate the minds since it's not fully contacting it)

When a person is dead.
Your mind seeks its target to no avail, leaving you drained. (this should cost many more stun points, maybe even make you pass out for getting that sudden enlightment that shows you the darkness of that person's death)

The problem with all of these, as nice as they sound to me as a player, is that they are all abuseable in some way.  If we know specifically a person's status by contacting them, then it -may- create the emotional response at the time (fear, annoyance, understanding) but in the end it's so abuseable by those people who are seeking the person for ill means that it makes fleeing and hiding for your life all but useless.

I don't know how feasable this is with the current code of the game and if I had -any- idea how to code it I would do it gladly (but I am one of those who reap the benefits without giving a damn about the dynamics unless they are broken and not providing me my addiction).

Here's my suggestion:

Save Way messages that have been sent to a logged out character in mind limbo so that when they log in, immediately their mind is contacted with the message.

>contact yursa
You contact the mind of the plump, scraggly haired woman with the Way.

>psi Run Yursa! They found out who you are!
You send a telepathic message to the plump, scraggly haired woman:
  "Run Yursa! They found out who you are!"

>break
You dissolve the psychic link.

(Yursa is logged off of course so enter Yursa)

The moment your mind clears from sleep you feel a foreign presence contact your mind.

The sooty-haired, spry woman sends you a telepathic message:
  "Run Yursa! They found out who you are!"

>think FUCK!

You think: FUCK!

Benefits of this?

Those hiding out, like Yursa, get tangled in a cat and mouse chase that truly never lets people know whether or not they are contacting you.

Important information will get passed on as needed but whether or not is received will be unknown to anyone unless they are responded to.

In order to avoid continuous Way saving for a character that is dead, I really would like to see that after an IC year of attempting to contact this person you would get the "Your mind seeks its target to no avail, leaving you drained" message.

I think it is feasable that if we have evolved into being able to contact, feel and communicate with another's mind, that we would -know- when that person's mind is just not there anymore. Maybe instantly depending on how strong your own mind is.

I'll shut up now.   :oops:


ShaLeah
-who suffers from the use of the Way.

[spawnloser]

Hmm...I do like the idea of being able to contact people and send messages when they're not logged in.  Why?  For the exact reason that ShaLeah mentioned...noone will know if they are logged in or not.  As someone else mentioned earlier, your character doesn't cease to exist when you're not logged in...so why can't people contact you?

[X-D]

Tiernan wrote:

As for playability, I believe the change will actually foster more interaction. Without being sarcastic, would it really be such a bad thing to get out and about and look for your friend? Maybe while you're looking for them at their favorite hangout you'll run into some fresh new faces along the way and get involved in some of the other plotlines and interactions that are happening out in the world. Why sit in your favorite quit-spot alone and limit yourself to playing with only a couple friends? I just don't subscribe to the "it hinders the playability of the game" argument here, quite the opposite. I think people who hide themselves away and only stick around when their clique is online are denying themselves and the other roleplayers in the game the opportunity for some fantastic interactions.

I believe that it will decrease interaction across the board as it currently sits
Why? Let me count the ways.
First, addressing going "out and looking for a friend" No, this is not a bad thing, specialy if you happen to have the goto command. But when one has to walk through rather large cities with a code imposed movement lag
it becomes daunting and tiresome, so you will not go look for that person unless it is extremly important, and even then it can take an IC day just to check three places. And if it is so important the char is not going to be much interested in interacting with anybody else short of have you seen so and so, if they are not speedwalking that is.  Peaple in clans will make sure to stay closer to the clanhouse/compound because it is to easy to miss things otherwise. Bynners will have a higher chance on missing out on contracts and such and so will also stay home. Thats if they can get the contract to begin with and then find the person later to go through with it. And oh the joy of ordering something from one of the merchant houses, anybody who has done so will now understand the new facet that has just been added to that extremly annoying bit of interaction. ISO and semi-iso clans, Well, they will be even more iso since they also will have to hang very close to the base of operations just to see if anybody else is about.

There is the opposit of sticking to the clan base also, this is just as bad as there will never be anybody there to do anything with.

And what about those people who play slaves and such? Who cannot walks around to look for the person? Yes, this is sure to be an extreme joy for them.
I expect the already low number of pc slaves to drop drasticly shortly.
I expect much more, and none of it good either, If it stays as is, Likly the clans/houses with very small playerbases will lose what few players they have left, these players will either go loner or go and join the larger clans/houses for the interaction there, lowering the  variety of interaction in the game while making things even more cliquish.

BTW: I like Shaleah's ideas too
(X-D needs the nifty Goto command so he will not mind going and looking for people)

[creeper386]

[EDIT] - Turns into massive rant at some point.

I like X-D's idea. It takes out the being able to abuse it if you know they are online of offline, and still tells you rather or not it's possible to reach them.

Right now, you can't tell if they fail or you just can't connect do to whatever reason, offline/sleeping/unconcious/dead what have you. And that's messed up. At least have a fail message.

So, you can fail at it you get one message. You succeed and contact them, well you contact them, you succeed but can't contact, you get a third message.

I'm sorry, but people hunting you because your online? Thats because they KNOWN they can find interaction. Knowing your online doesn't give them knowledge of where you are. And, who's to say they haven't been searching for you when your offline.

Theres all sorts of problems. See some people have good friends who would be around each other most the time, but when ones offline and the other isn't, they can't be. Being offline is an OOC thing, but no matter what you change it well always effect IC things. Unless every PC is forced into an NPC and oh, that'd be just wonderful. Your characters still in the world but your character can't bloody well interact with a damn thing nor can anyone else interact with it. If it was a perfect world noone would be logging out, but it isn't a real world. There is playability issues. I spend alot of my time before the change trying to find people. That includes walking around even when they aren't online because I'm looking for other people.

With the change how it is... I can't even tell if I'm just failing at the way or what. It gives no information, and I'm MUCH more likely to spend more time trying to use the way because there isn't any different message between succeed and failure. Now if I tried someone and failed a few times, my character might continue trying to reach them, but if I succeeded in finding them but can't communicate due to whatever reason, then my character wouldn't try to continue reaching them. There is no information. It's fail/offline/dead/any other condition that makes it so you can't reach them, and succeed.

Although I'd prefer to know if someone is online or not, and not so I can wait untill my sergeant goes offline so I can go play in the 'rinth or wait untill some rich merchant logs out to rob there house, or wait untill someone is online before I ever try searching for someone, but so I know if I'm able to interact with their character. So I know if I'm able to get together with them. It helps for planning RP things to know if someone is online or not. Now any planning has to be done on an OOC level... And thats if you can find them, and if you don't have contact with them outside the MUD, it has to be long term planning as you'd have to run into them. Not everyone has a bloody message board to keep in contact with people. SHRUG, and still. I wouldn't like wandering the known world looking for someone, when even if they are "still in the world" they are offline, there is NO WAY YOU CAN RUN INTO THEM. That OOC aspect of them being offline is still going to affect play. Because if they were online, theres alot of times the people your looking for well be found, but they aren't they aren't no place in the world that is able to be found. They may still "be in the world" but there is no interaction to be found. They can't respond. And over all, for someone to disapear for a week or two at a time, yeah... Thats not really IC but certainly effects things. When if they were logged in they WOULD be around.

Creeper

[the traveller]

Both imms have commented that they believe use of the way has actually been made easier.

Some changes were made, and I'll let the coder who made them speak (or not) to specifics. I think you will, as time progresses, find the Way significantly easier to use, particularly with experienced characters, in a way that makes it more playable and less frustrating.

Also, with the other changes made to psionics the Way should become a great deal easier to use.  Contacting someone should not fail as often as it used to, for those who use the Way regularly.  The drain from using the Way should also be less severe.

Some benefits may become apparent after a little more use of the new system. If everyone tries the new system for awhile and it still seems unusable, I'm sure the imms will listen to some suggestions. Everyone voicing their complaints now though, without giving it a thorough trial, may be a little premature.

As to why everyone should try out the new system for awhile before writing the changes off entirely.... well, they asked us to..

I suggest seeing how it works for a week and then assessing it, rather than reacting immediately. Some of those changes won't be evident immediately.

..and that should be enough.

[creeper386]

[WARNING] - Goes to the possible extremes that would need to be done in order to justify a small change that makes it so if the person is offline it makes you think they might be online.

I'm still going to use the way, but it's probably going to be restricted to one use, if I fail I won't try again because as far as I know, I DIDN'T fail, I just couldn't reach them.

And STILL if they are logged off, but their character is still in the game... Why leave it to the code to say you can't reach them. Should just be able to reach them anyways and leave all sorts of messages you want. Maybe alittle bit of player options to be able to decide how often your characters asleep and such when offline, and some random things for getting knocked out or what not so sometimes even then you can't contact them. THEN can also include random item/'sid loss when offline because there are still thieves about. Then can include any possible skill gains while offline. And so on and so forth. They ARE still in the world you know.

[EDIT] - I'd also like to see all the above things included through new code that keeps track of what your character does, so when you log out an NPC is created that continues doing the average things. Maybe some different options to do somethings and not others. Probably player made scripts to add some interaction. That way when people log off it doesn't effect IC gameplay too much. No matter what they well always be around. And if that NPC gets killed... Well your shit out of luck. Make a new character.

Creeper

[gfair]

Thank you gfair, that's absolutely correct.  The "You've never heard of that person." message was inherently wrong in the first place.  Of course you've heard of them, you're actively trying to find them.  

If I might point out though, I'm not sure if anyone else has, but - try in game to contact names of people that don't exist.  Superman, Aragorn, Gandalf, Mariah Carey, Miss Cleo, etc.  You get the same message for  names that definitely do not exist, as for actual characters.  I think there should be a check against existing characters and still respond with the "You have never heard of that person." because truly, that person doesn't exist.

[Dan]

Try to keep all suggestions within the realm of playability and a bit more realistic... to no one in particular of course. Critisize all you want, but make sure it is constructive. Please?

[My 2 sids]

Some benefits may become apparent after a little more use of the new system. If everyone tries the new system for awhile and it still seems unusable, I'm sure the imms will listen to some suggestions. Everyone voicing their complaints now though, without giving it a thorough trial, may be a little premature.

Oh yes, just like they told us about the new system.  I don't think it is even mentioned in the weekly update.  

Here is the thing... the system will -always- have ways to be abused.  But I just wonder if the cost this time is too great.  X-D made some wonderful examples to points people are saying over and over.  People, for the most part, like and do not abuse this OOC feature.  I think what might have been one of the biggest abuse features were that people didn't show up for training or work or whatever and if the leader/sargent/lord knew they were ofline they wouldn't question the character about it.  That is the -player/lords- choice.  And doing the Way this way... won't change anything.  Because these same lords/leaders will just assume the person is logged out.

Look, I just don't see why we all should have to give up codes we find useful for a small minority of people who will twink to abusing the system another way.

[Desert Wanderer]

There is a lot of good discussion in this thread about these changes.  I also understand the abuse the previous method could allow.  Perhaps there could be a happy middle ground where a player could set the option of whether they could be discerned on or offline.

It could be as simple as when you turn mercy on or off, or further tailored for anyone, guild or none to know you're on or offline.

It's just a thought.

-DW

[Gorobei]

I want to add that I don't think the Way should be segregated from the rest of the game, in that we make many many roleplaying consessions around people not being logged on 24/7.
For example, if that new Byn runner's not in the latrines when he's supposed to, the sergeant can simply try to contact him.  If he's offline, sarge knows that the runner's actually there, over in the dark corner, working quietly.  Sarge won't have to kick his ass next time he's online.

Another thing is some characters have no choice but to rely on the Way.  My character was recently in a situation in which he was fairly isolated, especially from his superiors, and contacting them on a regular basis was very important.  Also, it seems to me that some characters are far more difficult to contact than others (from them consistantly using their barrier, or for other reasons, I don't know).  One of my superiors usually took 8-15 attempts for a successful contact (and my character is hardly new).  I was willing to do this, because I didn't have much else to do, but it would've been hellish if I hadn't know whether he was online or not.

I'm willing to give this new system a shot for a week.  I also understand the reasons for keeping the entire extent of the changes hidden.  However, if we could know everything that happened so we could try out all the new features, then we'd be much more effective playtesters.

[Forest Junkie]

Though I wish the system would have stayed the way it was (I liked it fine that way) I think that this new system is the right way to go...This is because there HAS been abuse. It may not seem fair right now to be punished for the actions of a few, but that's the way it's gotta be. You can thank all the twinks out there for causing this to happen.

In closing, though I despised the new system when I first realized what was happening, I have come to understand that it's just simply for the best.

[creeper386]

The change was mentioned in the weekly update. Which just came out today.

But seriously, there are problems. If you can't tell if someone is online or offline you can't tell if they are around virtually. If someone is offline, most likely virtually they are at training, or at this or that, or if someone couldn't make it to a large RPT that their character WOULD NOT miss or could very well be in VERY big trouble. Now are you just going to assume that if they aren't there they are skipping? What do you do. OOCily you have NO information. You can't tell anything.

I can see a few small ways it's abusable, but I don't see everyone constantly abusing it, and see alot more ways why that OOC information is important to the OOC person behind the IC person. Your character knows they are in the world someplace, but it's alot easier to know when someone is offline. Specially when you start accusing people of skipping things when they are offline? Or what not. Because you can't tell any difference OOCily. There are playability issues where some things like being offline need to be worked with, and this change makes it so it can't be worked with.

[EDIT] - And making changes because people are abusing that then makes things harder for everyone else, making it an OOC hassle, isn't the way to go. Maybe the other parts of this change is good but the whole message thing needs to be fixed. I know on important things some characters may spend all there time trying to contact someone, and under some circumstances you may always fail... Without having any clue about different things... It's going to be a big hassle. I've already had a big hassle with it, and I think it'd be even harder for people that are acctually in a leadership position.

Creeper

[Gawynn]

Hrm, I don't know that I like this change. I think, similarly to what did exist before, you would probably have some idea of how well you did searching: either you found their mind, and perhaps were unable to penetrate (message relaying such), or maybe in the vast sea of minds, you simply did not find them at all. There is still some uncertainty involved, and of course, as you improved your usage, you might be able to more readily realize when the mind is not there to find (you'd have some idea of how often you tended to succeed)... also, I feel if it's a person you have contacted on many occasions, it might be easier to find their mind, since you have a general idea already of what their mind 'feels' like. Equally so, I think if you've been in contact with them many times, they might come to realize immediately that it was you who contacted them, because of the 'feel', though I have no idea how the 'way' actually feels This might also prevent somewhat, the mysterious contact you received but no message (to check on you for whatever reason); if you realized who it was, who knows what might develop? Just throwing some ideas out.

I do like the 'sleeping' message idea, where perhaps they managed to reach your mind, and whatever message they sent you happened to invade your dreams. I kind of like the idea that perhaps you wouldn't know who had wayed the words to you, you'd just have a vague recollection of the words. Of course, I think there should be a 'recollect' command or something to prevent players from logging and having to wade through a hundred spam messages. Of course, it'd have to be noted that offline characters are not necessarily sleeping, but may be otherwise occupied. I'd sure hate to get in trouble because a Commander or Lieutenant had decided my character was asleep because of a way message sent during training time.

Oh well, I'm having trouble collecting my thoughts at the moment, so if none of that makes sense, forgive me Maybe someone can pull some good ideas out of the gibberish though. Blegh.

Gawynn