Was the way fiddled with?

[Travel Cake]

It seems more difficult to use than it was. My imagination? Deliberate change? Bugged?

Please can we put it back?

[My 2 sids]

To go with the Way question... how come all the responces come back the same now?  Is that intentional?  If so, why?

[spawnloser]

Personally, I have no idea what either of you are talking about.

[Northerner]

I'm not sure if we should tell or if we should wait a day so everyone finds out before we have what I believe will be a very large discussion...

[Travel Cake]

Ok, well then I'll hold on a day or so.

But while I understand and agree with some of the reasons this may have been done, I think the drawbacks, which I will wait to detail, outway the benefits.

[spawnloser]

Myself, I've been having an easier time of Waying people since the reboot, so go ahead and be enigmatic.  I won't care either way.

[creeper386]

If your saying that the message for offline was changed to you can't reach them. I serious wouldn't like it. If they are offline I really don't want to spend a good portion of my characters morning trying to contact them. It's rather silly. If they are offline, that's an OOC thing and although telling you they are offline some what effects RP, it's alot better then continuing something IC when it's impossible to do because the person isn't even online.

But I haven't even logged in yet, just got off work.


Creeper

[spawnloser]

Oh, yes, I do believe that the 'You've never heard of that person' message has been removed.

[creeper386]

And that my friend, is really, extremely fucked up. Well... Add in a completely too. It's the type of thing thats going to FORCE people to exchange IM screen names just to know if they person is online or not. If it stays as it is, you can't do ANY IC planning for the most part. Especially not anything short term, because you could spend a full IC day just trying to figure out if your three buddies are offline, and thats even with my current character having a damn good stun and can way alot. Bleh.

No offense to whoevers idea it was, but it's a stupid change. Could have been worded better, and I'd like if they were dead you still got the you can't reach there mind, so that way, you know for a fact, that they are offline, or they are online/dead. Which makes more sense to me.


Creeper

[spawnloser]

I can agree to the point that I think you should be able to tell if they are offline, just so that you don't waste the time.  I do not think that you should be able to tell if they're dead though...I don't know how that would work, though, because if they're dead, the character's not online, meaning that you would get the same response unless the code was unnecessarily complex...keeping track of all dead PCs.  It just seems cumbersome...I don't know that the solution should be, but then, I haven't succesfully contacted someone that was offline yet.  If you can and then when you try to actually send a message get the 'something is blocking your telepathy' message, I'd be fine with the way it is.  We could assume that the other person is asleep, which (from my experience) is the most popular excuse given when someone get's the 'you've never heard of that person' response when trying to contact to begin with.

[Sintti]

I personally would rather have off-line/dead with one message and on-line with another.

Having spent two frantic hours trying to reach one person once (turned out to be an NPC) I can vouch that it is oocly frustrating to keep trying more than an ic day.

[spawnloser]

Having spent two frantic hours trying to reach one person once (turned out to be an NPC) I can vouch that it is oocly frustrating to keep trying more than an ic day.

Oh, believe me, I understand.  I don't think that OOC things like someone not being logged in should interfere with the IC environment, which having no differentiation between a simple fail or target offline.

[creeper386]

I do not think that you should be able to tell if they're dead though...I don't know how that would work, though, because if they're dead, the character's not online, meaning that you would get the same response unless the code was unnecessarily complex...keeping track of all dead PCs.

I don't think I said you'd be able to tell if they were dead. See if they are offline, that's an OOC thing. So you should know for sure if they are offline or they are online. Now, if they are dead, thats an IC thing. The staff already said they don't want it to be that easy to tell if they are dead. If they are dead, and it shows they are still in the world, maybe after awhile of not being able to reach their head or reaching others heads, you'd assume they are gone, but that doesn't neccessarily mean they are gone.

And, the game already keeps track of dead characters. At least there is the list in your account. If the character name is in that list and not the active character, it could say they are still around.

But then, I'd also like to see the way code more complex, like being able to use several things. Something like,

contact bob burly, curly-haired man

Would almost always garuntee the right person, while

contact fred black man

Might reach some other character named Fred, and

contact sinewy

Will reach any character with sinewy, so the more you know the better chance you have of getting the right person.

And it DOES relate all back to the change in the way code and how I want it changed back with a definate offline message and the online/dead can't connect message being the same but I can't figure out how to explain it right now and people are complaining, so I'm out.

Creeper

[Fedaykin]

I am forced to agreed with nearly all of the above posters on this change.

I think this is one of those instances where playability needs to win out over other goals.

[My 2 sids]

Ok, I know of at least one reason this might have been changed.  But there is an IC answer that has nothing to do with the Way.  If you are a leader and wish to know if someone is ditching duties vs. logging out well... just demand the character to give an excuse.  I know things like that allows for abuse but really its a big help to know if someone is online or not.

[Fedaykin]

No offense to whoevers idea it was, but it's a stupid change.

I thought I should add that I don't believe the change to be stupid, although I do disagree with it.  

Because the way allows people to know whether certain PC's are online or not, it can be abused by allowing people to do something they might otherwise not do if that PC was online.  A change like this could address those problems, although that isn't necesssarily why the change was made.

However, I doubt anyone is making a real habit of that or that a large number of people would be doing it.  I can understand the realism angle where if you don't reach a certain person, you simply don't reach them, why should the message be any different?

The problem is, by addressing either of those or other issues with the way by making this change, I feel that it is actually harming the game, rather than adding to it.  A large part of the game is interaction, after all, and if people are busy wasting their time trying to way characters that are not online rather than interacting with those that are online, the game and the RP suffers in my opinion.

In an ideal Zalanthas, characters would always be on and you could contact them and send messages whenever, barring any failing with the way.  To me, it is unrealistic that people would continually go through long stretches of not being able to contact someone that they normally would be able to reach, simply for the OOC reason that they are not in game.  

Again, I think this harms rather than adds to the game, and that playability needs to win out in this instance.

[X-D]

Yup, this really sucks, Oh sure, you get to RP that the person you were trying to contact was sleeping hard or something, But having had to deal with this tonight of trying for a real life hour to contact somebody who was not even logged in, this just wasted my time and everybody playing around me.


On the same point of wasting time, what if it is some type of emergancy in game, you need to contact a templar, noble, employer, whatever, the dragon is invading, Oh, you can't reach him but you have no idea if he is on so you attempt a few more times and get eaten by the dragon before you can warn anybody and so he waltzes into nak catching everybody sleeping...ah what a nice snack for him.


And it is even worse for new chars, at least if you have a 30 day and you fail 10 times you can figure either the char is asleep, blocking or not on.

But a new char can fail 10, 20 times trying to way somebody right next to them.


It does Suck.

[gfair]

The complaints of wasting time today are pretty much meaningless, by tomorrow the playerbase will have adapted.

I'm guessing that the outcome of this new system is that players will take the Way with a grain of salt on a failure, you'll try a couple times, and then get on with things, try another couple times later, but nobody will waste so much time from now on, you'll waste as much or less time than you do with the previous system. Just an opinion, and a guess, of course.

[X-D]

Or stop using it altogether, but that or gfair's way will still reduce interaction by increasing the time it takes to find someone that you wish to interact with, eventually causing a lot more people to play loner chars OR stay in one spot idle waiting for the people they need to deal with to be around, which also reduces overall interaction. Regardless on wether or not the players can adapt to it in anyway, I see no way that this change (if indeed it is a change, no staff have spoken yet, it could be a bug I suppose) Helps in the playability of the game or the game world.
None, Zero, Zilch, Nada.
IMO

[gfair]

I see no way that this change (if indeed it is a change, no staff have spoken yet, it could be a bug I suppose) Helps in the playability of the game or the game world.
None, Zero, Zilch, Nada.
IMO

My bet on why the change was introduced was precisely for the reason everyone is complaining - you don't know whether the person is trying to contact is actually on or not.  To us, it's an advantage, but in reality from the IMM perspective, it's a way of getting OOC information from the game code.  It affects the way players make decisions to know whether a person is on or off.  

Yeah, name sharing may skyrocket - news flash: that isn't against the rules.  Passing information OOC about IC is against the rules, and this change doesn't hinder the ability of IMMs to find that out.  You're at greater risk of being punished if you share IC information OOC with more people, because it means you're more likely to slip up and get caught.

[Delirium]

This reminds me of the whole backlash with the desert elf change. ;)

I can see both sides of the debate - and I'd say give it a week to try it out, and then if everyone's just as angry about it, then decide what to do.

[Barzalene]

I don't think anyone is angry. I think people are disturbed by the prospect of not being able to reach the people they need to reach. After all, the population is illiterate. You can't leave notes. Only the richest people can afford messengers.

It's just frustrating and daunting (as has been noted above a few times) to imagine only having an hour or two to play, and spending it laying in the dorm at the gaj waying the people you need, unable to determine if you're wasting your time.


I think what most people are saying is, please, change it back

[Hoodwink]

I'm going to go against the grain and speak in favor of such a change, which I've yet to verify it happening in game as of yet.  Two reasons for my being for the change:

1) I don't think it's particularly fair for people to know I am online simply by failing to contact me over the Way -- shouldn't succeeding be enough?

2) I see a lot of complaints about having to spend ridiculous amounts of time trying to reach someone now.  Don't.  Why not give up after a few attempts?  Consider the Way a tool used scarcely.  In the Dark Sun books very few people were able to use it to the capacity we all have been (that being, not unlike a 'tell' command on stock diku where you can communicate with someone in another part of the game as you).  If you're resting in some corner contacting over and over and over, you really ought to yield to the fact that a) (s)he's either not online, or b) your use with the mysterious (somewhat frightening) powers of the Way are limited -- and thankfully so, since you're not some demonic mindbender.

That said, I definately agree to feeling slightly disadvantaged now to this alleged change.

[Malifaxis]

From the psi help files:

As species have evolved, humans found themselves at a disadvantage. No longer the strongest, fastest, or even smartest beings around, their survival was in jeopardy. For one reason or another, the human brain was able to unlock more psionic powers than any of the other beings.

I, as well, can see points on both sides of the arguement... in my humble opinion, the change is not for the best.  I can't agree more with the playability needs to win out statement, because this is kinda harsh.

The change does make much sense, in that it does suck that people can just know you're not on, and act around it, however... to this, I offer yet another of my cracked out suggestions:

Make a 'find' psi skill, available to everyone, branchable after you get good enough at contact (or just automatic, if the imms are feeling really really nice).  Since you need to establish contact for all psi skills and messages, this one would have to act out side of that.  Basically, it would be like trying to 'ping' someones mind.  Since you're actively searching for them, it would have hellacious lag, and take a goodly amount of psi... since there is literally a sea of minds to wade through looking for the right one.  

If we're going to stick with these changes, I would very much like to see a reduced cost on contact, just to make it a bit more feasible... or perhaps, a reduced cost on failed contacts, full price on contacts that complete?

This really does, as far as I see it, hurt the newbers more than anyone... I can see more than a few of them deciding "Well, maybe Sarge is right outside the gates, and I can find him easy enough" only to become the next serving of purina gith/gortok/spider chow.

[Bestatte]

I can understand the need for -a- change with the Way, but I don't think this is the most appropriate one.

contact (person who is publically and officially known to have been dead for a *real life year*)

You are unable to reach their mind.

Umm..no. They don't exist, and haven't existed for around a game-wide DECADE...their mind doesn't exist..so "reaching their mind" shouldn't even be part of the echo.

What I'd rather see...which I posted WAYYYY back when I first started here as a newbie:

One message for being unable to contact a character who *does* exist, whose player *is* logged on... or whose character has existed until recently (say, within the past game-month or year).

Another message for being unable to contact a character who has not existed for at least a game-month or year, or who does currently exist but whose player is logged off.

I absolutely and definitely understand the need for not hinting that the character who was alive yesterday is dead today. But contacting someone who hasn't been around since the North-South war is stretching it by a mile.

In addition, a high-powered mindbender - from what I would think based on the docs.. would be able to break through a barrier. This "unable to reach" thing *can* imply that a character is logged in the game but with their barrier up. What's a mindbender to think, if they can't break through? From a *strictly* IC perspective, if I was one, I'd think the person I'm trying to contact has a barrier far more powerful than my ability to break through, which of COURSE means they're a mindbender too....

That could prove to be a very ugly situation, caused by an OOC mechanic.

I'm hoping this is just a bug, and that it'll be fixed soon, because my character is LOUSY with the way and therefore *I* have no way of knowing if I should stop trying to contact someone after the first few tries, or if I should keep going for a real-life hour just becuase there's something important going on that the person I'm trying to contact needs to know about.

And sitting there for a real-life hour could mean that I am removing myself from that "something important," thus losing precious play-time and RP time.

I also agree that it would also encourage people to use OOC means outside the game (AIM, MS Messenger, IRC, etc) to find out if their target is logged in, and that can only harm the integrity of the game in the long run. I know I for one would not want everyone and their brother sending me AIM messages just to ask if I'm logged in - and yet I would avail myself simply because I'd end up doing the same to others that I try to contact.

I can't agree that it was a stupid change..because I have no idea why it was changed. It could be the smartest idea the staff has come up with so far, for all I know. But regardless, I don't like it one bit.

That is all.

[flurry]

I have to agree that this change concerns me somewhat, but I'll reserve judgement until I see how the world works with the change for a few days.  

One comment: I really disliked the "You've never heard of that person." message (or whatever it was).   This can be especially jarring as a newbie - when it happens right after you met the person or about your closest friend.   Of course - after you play a day or two, you know what it really means.   But still - it was kind of silly to get the feedback that you've never heard of someone that you might have known for IC years.   Even if they're dead - you've heard of them!

One thing that I've done before (which is probably worth discouraging) is logging in, checking if certain people are online with the way, and then logging out if they're not.    It's still not impossible, but would just take a little longer.  

One thought I had is if there were a random different fail message that only showed up when someone was offline (but not on every contact attempt).

e.g.

>contact bjork
You are unable to reach their mind.
>contact bjork
You are unable to reach their mind.
>contact bjork
Their mind eludes your reach.

So you still don't get the instant gratification, but you have a chance (maybe on the first try if you're lucky) of getting the OOC hint that - hey, they're not around.

[spawnloser]

Oh, Creeper, I didn't mean to suggest that you were saying anything other than you were saying...I was just voicing my opinion, which, no matter what anyone else has said, is still that an OOC thing like being logged out should not affect the playability of the game and/or IC concerns.

[Dan]

The imm's fixed a bug as far as im concerned.

I think people have relied on the way for far too long anyway. A mindbender should rely on the way, not your average house guard. I am all for, 100% with this change.

It will now be as easy as it should be to rebel and become deserter from a merchant/noble house, or from the 'byn.

I think you shouldn't be able to tell who is on and who isn't. Roll with the punches, deal with it. I think it'd be twinkish for someone to sit somewhere for more than a few attempts at contacting someone, if you can't reach thier mind its because they are too far away, sleeping, unconscious, busy, have a barrier up. The whole "they are or are not online" line of thinking was the wrong way to go in the first place. Their characters are around whether or not the player is, they just fall to the background, so to speak.

As for contacting someone you -know- is dead... "You are unable to reach their mind." still fits perfectly. You are unable to reach their mind because mayby their mind no longer exists, which is why you can't reach it, its a dried out husk under some dune. Why would you try to contact someone you know is dead anyway? Ic'ly that is.

Now we will have more use for bounty hunters. Who can actively search for people who have run away, or are missing. Because now you can't just try to way them and instantly know whether they are offline or online.

I could sit here all morning, coming up with pros for this change, and probably sit here just as long coming up with cons. The thing is that there are pros and cons to most changes. I say, don't fear change, embrace it. This is a good change, and as far as I am concerned, the imms simply fixed a bug. Kudos to the imms on this one.

[Sanvean]

Some changes were made, and I'll let the coder who made them speak (or not) to specifics. I think you will, as time progresses, find the Way significantly easier to use, particularly with experienced characters, in a way that makes it more playable and less frustrating.

As for the messages - there are pros and cons. Unfortunately, the former system was abusable - and was being abused in a way the current version can't.

I suggest seeing how it works for a week and then assessing it, rather than reacting immediately. Some of those changes won't be evident immediately.

[Red Ranger]

I have no problem with the changes.  Sanvean writes that there is more to the changes than meet the eye, but even if there weren't added functionality I'm in favor of the changes.  

I don't recall how long ago it was, but it couldn't have been longer than 2 years or so ago when all failures at contact gave the same message.  I don't think that PCs then were all loners or were all constantly frustrated.  In fact, I was shocked when the system that is now being missed was implemented because being able to know whether or not someone is online in such an easy manner is very OOC.  I like my Armageddon pure.

Red Ranger

[X-D]

Sorry, I'm sure after a week I will still hate it, at least as long as you can sit there trying to contact someone with no idea why it is not going through...Hell, I would be happy with a catch all for offline, dead, sleeping, barrior up message. And another for you just failed to make contact.


Lump all of the "you cannot reach this persons mind no matter how hard you try because they are alseep,dead,out cold,sleeping,offline" into one message, that way you have no real idea if they are on or not but at least you know to not keep trying forever. and just to try later.

Then have a different message for normal fail...Though..hhhmmm, yes, this would work, have the check on success or fail before the check on the targets condition.
contact tektolnes
You attempt to make contact but your mind is rather fuzzy at the moment
that is failed skill check
You would get it regardless of the targets condition because it check for fail or succeed first
so, try again

contact tektolnes
You are unable to reach his mind.
the sleeping/dead/KO'd/offline/barrior message
You do not know what the reason is but You can't contact them at this time, try again later.

contact tektolnes
You reach the mind the incredibly powerful...Your mind suddenly implodes
BEEP!
mantis

Oh, sorry, best to not actually try and contact Tek I think.

And you could vary the fail messages too, that would be interesting also.
You are unable to maintain concentration.
You cannot focus.
etc.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Having lost a character to misuse of the way in a manner that is no longer possible, I am completely in favor of the change.  Thats all.

[Soldierinarms]

I had people tracking me down to...knowing that for sure I was on...without ever contacting me just by getting the message unable to contact.

So I agree that people want to see the old way BECAUSE they could abuse it.

And besides maybe this will get some of them nobles out and exercising their legs!

[Tiernan]

My bet on why the change was introduced was precisely for the reason everyone is complaining - you don't know whether the person is trying to contact is actually on or not.  To us, it's an advantage, but in reality from the IMM perspective, it's a way of getting OOC information from the game code.  It affects the way players make decisions to know whether a person is on or off.  

Thank you gfair, that's absolutely correct.  The "You've never heard of that person." message was inherently wrong in the first place.  Of course you've heard of them, you're actively trying to find them.  The message needed to be changed to something more appropriate.  "You are unable to reach their mind." pretty much describes the results accurately.

The only thing the different messages gave was OOC info.  There's nothing IC-related about the different messages at all.  Either you find them or you do not.  Their online status should never have been revealed and I firmly believe that this change is the correct one.  All that the old message did was provide OOC information which players immediately applied towards their character's decisions and behavior.  That's all it was being used for, plain and simple.  It's not a playability issue, it's an abuse issue.  

As for playability, I believe the change will actually foster more interaction.  Without being sarcastic, would it really be such a bad thing to get out and about and look for your friend?  Maybe while you're looking for them at their favorite hangout you'll run into some fresh new faces along the way and get involved in some of the other plotlines and interactions that are happening out in the world.  Why sit in your favorite quit-spot alone and limit yourself to playing with only a couple friends?  I just don't subscribe to the "it hinders the playability of the game" argument here, quite the opposite.  I think people who hide themselves away and only stick around when their clique is online are denying themselves and the other roleplayers in the game the opportunity for some fantastic interactions.

Also, with the other changes made to psionics the Way should become a great deal easier to use.  Contacting someone should not fail as often as it used to, for those who use the Way regularly.  The drain from using the Way should also be less severe.  I think the Way will become far more useful as a result.  This can only have a positive outcome for the game and players alike.

[CindyLou]

well i tried and the drain's exactly the same as it was before.

yeah i agree people should get out and stop sitting at tables or couches for hours doing nothin else but try to contact people.

but if youre trying to contact someone who you know is out in the desert just tryin to make sure he made it to the next town ok, it'd be nice to have some way of knowing if youre not contacting them because their not logged on in the first place.

that way you have some idea of how to rp it out. if your new to the way you have -no- way of knowing it your failing for OOC reasons or not, and thats the biggest issue I have.

the second one is that people who are like me and dont have good way skills might just add more names to they're buddy lists and that ends up being the same thing as getting a "You've never hard of the person' message.

so I don't really see how this will solve the problem.

[spawnloser]

Okay, I agree with many of the reasons for the change...I still can't wait to see people getting ripped a new one by their Lord or Templar masters for not getting ahold of people and not being able to justify it.  At least getting the message that let you know the person was offline allowed for some justification.  I still think a better compromise would be, as someone else suggested, to have a check for success/fail and then, if successful, give a different message if the person is offline, as if they were asleep or blocking, letting you know for certain that you aren't going to be able to reach the person.  Make it so that you can't really tell that the person is offline, but at least give you more information than the default fail message.  Granted, I'm willing to go on some faith, as I haven't seen enough Way action since the reboot and Sanvaen did say that some changes wouldn't be evident right away, but that's just my initial reaction...tempered by the debate thus far.

[ShaLeah]

Not so long ago, the Way gave the following message regardless of whether or not your target was in game:
You have never heard of that person.

That used to drive me insane.
I've never heard from that person?!? I was just with them!

I was thrilled when you they changed the message to:
You are unable to reach their mind.

As a player I would love to see different messages (as it was suggested before) for different situations.

Suggestions?

When a person is logged out.
Contacting <sdesc> is just too difficult. (Should cost a fraction of the usual attempt)

When a person is logged in but you can't reach them.
You are unable to reach their mind. (I'm used to it, it should take the usual amount of stun points)

When a person is stunned or sleeping.
You feel a very weak contact with <sdesc>'s mind but can not get a proper connection. (this should only take partial stun points and not require a 'break' to separate the minds since it's not fully contacting it)

When a person is dead.
Your mind seeks its target to no avail, leaving you drained. (this should cost many more stun points, maybe even make you pass out for getting that sudden enlightment that shows you the darkness of that person's death)

The problem with all of these, as nice as they sound to me as a player, is that they are all abuseable in some way.  If we know specifically a person's status by contacting them, then it -may- create the emotional response at the time (fear, annoyance, understanding) but in the end it's so abuseable by those people who are seeking the person for ill means that it makes fleeing and hiding for your life all but useless.

I don't know how feasable this is with the current code of the game and if I had -any- idea how to code it I would do it gladly (but I am one of those who reap the benefits without giving a damn about the dynamics unless they are broken and not providing me my addiction).

Here's my suggestion:

Save Way messages that have been sent to a logged out character in mind limbo so that when they log in, immediately their mind is contacted with the message.

>contact yursa
You contact the mind of the plump, scraggly haired woman with the Way.

>psi Run Yursa! They found out who you are!
You send a telepathic message to the plump, scraggly haired woman:
  "Run Yursa! They found out who you are!"

>break
You dissolve the psychic link.

(Yursa is logged off of course so enter Yursa)

The moment your mind clears from sleep you feel a foreign presence contact your mind.

The sooty-haired, spry woman sends you a telepathic message:
  "Run Yursa! They found out who you are!"

>think FUCK!

You think: FUCK!

Benefits of this?

Those hiding out, like Yursa, get tangled in a cat and mouse chase that truly never lets people know whether or not they are contacting you.

Important information will get passed on as needed but whether or not is received will be unknown to anyone unless they are responded to.

In order to avoid continuous Way saving for a character that is dead, I really would like to see that after an IC year of attempting to contact this person you would get the "Your mind seeks its target to no avail, leaving you drained" message.

I think it is feasable that if we have evolved into being able to contact, feel and communicate with another's mind, that we would -know- when that person's mind is just not there anymore. Maybe instantly depending on how strong your own mind is.

I'll shut up now.   :oops:


ShaLeah
-who suffers from the use of the Way.

[spawnloser]

Hmm...I do like the idea of being able to contact people and send messages when they're not logged in.  Why?  For the exact reason that ShaLeah mentioned...noone will know if they are logged in or not.  As someone else mentioned earlier, your character doesn't cease to exist when you're not logged in...so why can't people contact you?

[X-D]

Tiernan wrote:

As for playability, I believe the change will actually foster more interaction. Without being sarcastic, would it really be such a bad thing to get out and about and look for your friend? Maybe while you're looking for them at their favorite hangout you'll run into some fresh new faces along the way and get involved in some of the other plotlines and interactions that are happening out in the world. Why sit in your favorite quit-spot alone and limit yourself to playing with only a couple friends? I just don't subscribe to the "it hinders the playability of the game" argument here, quite the opposite. I think people who hide themselves away and only stick around when their clique is online are denying themselves and the other roleplayers in the game the opportunity for some fantastic interactions.

I believe that it will decrease interaction across the board as it currently sits
Why? Let me count the ways.
First, addressing going "out and looking for a friend" No, this is not a bad thing, specialy if you happen to have the goto command. But when one has to walk through rather large cities with a code imposed movement lag
it becomes daunting and tiresome, so you will not go look for that person unless it is extremly important, and even then it can take an IC day just to check three places. And if it is so important the char is not going to be much interested in interacting with anybody else short of have you seen so and so, if they are not speedwalking that is.  Peaple in clans will make sure to stay closer to the clanhouse/compound because it is to easy to miss things otherwise. Bynners will have a higher chance on missing out on contracts and such and so will also stay home. Thats if they can get the contract to begin with and then find the person later to go through with it. And oh the joy of ordering something from one of the merchant houses, anybody who has done so will now understand the new facet that has just been added to that extremly annoying bit of interaction. ISO and semi-iso clans, Well, they will be even more iso since they also will have to hang very close to the base of operations just to see if anybody else is about.

There is the opposit of sticking to the clan base also, this is just as bad as there will never be anybody there to do anything with.

And what about those people who play slaves and such? Who cannot walks around to look for the person? Yes, this is sure to be an extreme joy for them.
I expect the already low number of pc slaves to drop drasticly shortly.
I expect much more, and none of it good either, If it stays as is, Likly the clans/houses with very small playerbases will lose what few players they have left, these players will either go loner or go and join the larger clans/houses for the interaction there, lowering the  variety of interaction in the game while making things even more cliquish.

BTW: I like Shaleah's ideas too
(X-D needs the nifty Goto command so he will not mind going and looking for people)

[creeper386]

[EDIT] - Turns into massive rant at some point.

I like X-D's idea. It takes out the being able to abuse it if you know they are online of offline, and still tells you rather or not it's possible to reach them.

Right now, you can't tell if they fail or you just can't connect do to whatever reason, offline/sleeping/unconcious/dead what have you. And that's messed up. At least have a fail message.

So, you can fail at it you get one message. You succeed and contact them, well you contact them, you succeed but can't contact, you get a third message.

I'm sorry, but people hunting you because your online? Thats because they KNOWN they can find interaction. Knowing your online doesn't give them knowledge of where you are. And, who's to say they haven't been searching for you when your offline.

Theres all sorts of problems. See some people have good friends who would be around each other most the time, but when ones offline and the other isn't, they can't be. Being offline is an OOC thing, but no matter what you change it well always effect IC things. Unless every PC is forced into an NPC and oh, that'd be just wonderful. Your characters still in the world but your character can't bloody well interact with a damn thing nor can anyone else interact with it. If it was a perfect world noone would be logging out, but it isn't a real world. There is playability issues. I spend alot of my time before the change trying to find people. That includes walking around even when they aren't online because I'm looking for other people.

With the change how it is... I can't even tell if I'm just failing at the way or what. It gives no information, and I'm MUCH more likely to spend more time trying to use the way because there isn't any different message between succeed and failure. Now if I tried someone and failed a few times, my character might continue trying to reach them, but if I succeeded in finding them but can't communicate due to whatever reason, then my character wouldn't try to continue reaching them. There is no information. It's fail/offline/dead/any other condition that makes it so you can't reach them, and succeed.

Although I'd prefer to know if someone is online or not, and not so I can wait untill my sergeant goes offline so I can go play in the 'rinth or wait untill some rich merchant logs out to rob there house, or wait untill someone is online before I ever try searching for someone, but so I know if I'm able to interact with their character. So I know if I'm able to get together with them. It helps for planning RP things to know if someone is online or not. Now any planning has to be done on an OOC level... And thats if you can find them, and if you don't have contact with them outside the MUD, it has to be long term planning as you'd have to run into them. Not everyone has a bloody message board to keep in contact with people. SHRUG, and still. I wouldn't like wandering the known world looking for someone, when even if they are "still in the world" they are offline, there is NO WAY YOU CAN RUN INTO THEM. That OOC aspect of them being offline is still going to affect play. Because if they were online, theres alot of times the people your looking for well be found, but they aren't they aren't no place in the world that is able to be found. They may still "be in the world" but there is no interaction to be found. They can't respond. And over all, for someone to disapear for a week or two at a time, yeah... Thats not really IC but certainly effects things. When if they were logged in they WOULD be around.

Creeper

[the traveller]

Both imms have commented that they believe use of the way has actually been made easier.

Some changes were made, and I'll let the coder who made them speak (or not) to specifics. I think you will, as time progresses, find the Way significantly easier to use, particularly with experienced characters, in a way that makes it more playable and less frustrating.

Also, with the other changes made to psionics the Way should become a great deal easier to use.  Contacting someone should not fail as often as it used to, for those who use the Way regularly.  The drain from using the Way should also be less severe.

Some benefits may become apparent after a little more use of the new system. If everyone tries the new system for awhile and it still seems unusable, I'm sure the imms will listen to some suggestions. Everyone voicing their complaints now though, without giving it a thorough trial, may be a little premature.

As to why everyone should try out the new system for awhile before writing the changes off entirely.... well, they asked us to..

I suggest seeing how it works for a week and then assessing it, rather than reacting immediately. Some of those changes won't be evident immediately.

..and that should be enough.

[creeper386]

[WARNING] - Goes to the possible extremes that would need to be done in order to justify a small change that makes it so if the person is offline it makes you think they might be online.

I'm still going to use the way, but it's probably going to be restricted to one use, if I fail I won't try again because as far as I know, I DIDN'T fail, I just couldn't reach them.

And STILL if they are logged off, but their character is still in the game... Why leave it to the code to say you can't reach them. Should just be able to reach them anyways and leave all sorts of messages you want. Maybe alittle bit of player options to be able to decide how often your characters asleep and such when offline, and some random things for getting knocked out or what not so sometimes even then you can't contact them. THEN can also include random item/'sid loss when offline because there are still thieves about. Then can include any possible skill gains while offline. And so on and so forth. They ARE still in the world you know.

[EDIT] - I'd also like to see all the above things included through new code that keeps track of what your character does, so when you log out an NPC is created that continues doing the average things. Maybe some different options to do somethings and not others. Probably player made scripts to add some interaction. That way when people log off it doesn't effect IC gameplay too much. No matter what they well always be around. And if that NPC gets killed... Well your shit out of luck. Make a new character.

Creeper

[gfair]

Thank you gfair, that's absolutely correct.  The "You've never heard of that person." message was inherently wrong in the first place.  Of course you've heard of them, you're actively trying to find them.  

If I might point out though, I'm not sure if anyone else has, but - try in game to contact names of people that don't exist.  Superman, Aragorn, Gandalf, Mariah Carey, Miss Cleo, etc.  You get the same message for  names that definitely do not exist, as for actual characters.  I think there should be a check against existing characters and still respond with the "You have never heard of that person." because truly, that person doesn't exist.

[Dan]

Try to keep all suggestions within the realm of playability and a bit more realistic... to no one in particular of course. Critisize all you want, but make sure it is constructive. Please?

[My 2 sids]

Some benefits may become apparent after a little more use of the new system. If everyone tries the new system for awhile and it still seems unusable, I'm sure the imms will listen to some suggestions. Everyone voicing their complaints now though, without giving it a thorough trial, may be a little premature.

Oh yes, just like they told us about the new system.  I don't think it is even mentioned in the weekly update.  

Here is the thing... the system will -always- have ways to be abused.  But I just wonder if the cost this time is too great.  X-D made some wonderful examples to points people are saying over and over.  People, for the most part, like and do not abuse this OOC feature.  I think what might have been one of the biggest abuse features were that people didn't show up for training or work or whatever and if the leader/sargent/lord knew they were ofline they wouldn't question the character about it.  That is the -player/lords- choice.  And doing the Way this way... won't change anything.  Because these same lords/leaders will just assume the person is logged out.

Look, I just don't see why we all should have to give up codes we find useful for a small minority of people who will twink to abusing the system another way.

[Desert Wanderer]

There is a lot of good discussion in this thread about these changes.  I also understand the abuse the previous method could allow.  Perhaps there could be a happy middle ground where a player could set the option of whether they could be discerned on or offline.

It could be as simple as when you turn mercy on or off, or further tailored for anyone, guild or none to know you're on or offline.

It's just a thought.

-DW

[Gorobei]

I want to add that I don't think the Way should be segregated from the rest of the game, in that we make many many roleplaying consessions around people not being logged on 24/7.
For example, if that new Byn runner's not in the latrines when he's supposed to, the sergeant can simply try to contact him.  If he's offline, sarge knows that the runner's actually there, over in the dark corner, working quietly.  Sarge won't have to kick his ass next time he's online.

Another thing is some characters have no choice but to rely on the Way.  My character was recently in a situation in which he was fairly isolated, especially from his superiors, and contacting them on a regular basis was very important.  Also, it seems to me that some characters are far more difficult to contact than others (from them consistantly using their barrier, or for other reasons, I don't know).  One of my superiors usually took 8-15 attempts for a successful contact (and my character is hardly new).  I was willing to do this, because I didn't have much else to do, but it would've been hellish if I hadn't know whether he was online or not.

I'm willing to give this new system a shot for a week.  I also understand the reasons for keeping the entire extent of the changes hidden.  However, if we could know everything that happened so we could try out all the new features, then we'd be much more effective playtesters.

[Forest Junkie]

Though I wish the system would have stayed the way it was (I liked it fine that way) I think that this new system is the right way to go...This is because there HAS been abuse. It may not seem fair right now to be punished for the actions of a few, but that's the way it's gotta be. You can thank all the twinks out there for causing this to happen.

In closing, though I despised the new system when I first realized what was happening, I have come to understand that it's just simply for the best.

[creeper386]

The change was mentioned in the weekly update. Which just came out today.

But seriously, there are problems. If you can't tell if someone is online or offline you can't tell if they are around virtually. If someone is offline, most likely virtually they are at training, or at this or that, or if someone couldn't make it to a large RPT that their character WOULD NOT miss or could very well be in VERY big trouble. Now are you just going to assume that if they aren't there they are skipping? What do you do. OOCily you have NO information. You can't tell anything.

I can see a few small ways it's abusable, but I don't see everyone constantly abusing it, and see alot more ways why that OOC information is important to the OOC person behind the IC person. Your character knows they are in the world someplace, but it's alot easier to know when someone is offline. Specially when you start accusing people of skipping things when they are offline? Or what not. Because you can't tell any difference OOCily. There are playability issues where some things like being offline need to be worked with, and this change makes it so it can't be worked with.

[EDIT] - And making changes because people are abusing that then makes things harder for everyone else, making it an OOC hassle, isn't the way to go. Maybe the other parts of this change is good but the whole message thing needs to be fixed. I know on important things some characters may spend all there time trying to contact someone, and under some circumstances you may always fail... Without having any clue about different things... It's going to be a big hassle. I've already had a big hassle with it, and I think it'd be even harder for people that are acctually in a leadership position.

Creeper

[Gawynn]

Hrm, I don't know that I like this change. I think, similarly to what did exist before, you would probably have some idea of how well you did searching: either you found their mind, and perhaps were unable to penetrate (message relaying such), or maybe in the vast sea of minds, you simply did not find them at all. There is still some uncertainty involved, and of course, as you improved your usage, you might be able to more readily realize when the mind is not there to find (you'd have some idea of how often you tended to succeed)... also, I feel if it's a person you have contacted on many occasions, it might be easier to find their mind, since you have a general idea already of what their mind 'feels' like. Equally so, I think if you've been in contact with them many times, they might come to realize immediately that it was you who contacted them, because of the 'feel', though I have no idea how the 'way' actually feels This might also prevent somewhat, the mysterious contact you received but no message (to check on you for whatever reason); if you realized who it was, who knows what might develop? Just throwing some ideas out.

I do like the 'sleeping' message idea, where perhaps they managed to reach your mind, and whatever message they sent you happened to invade your dreams. I kind of like the idea that perhaps you wouldn't know who had wayed the words to you, you'd just have a vague recollection of the words. Of course, I think there should be a 'recollect' command or something to prevent players from logging and having to wade through a hundred spam messages. Of course, it'd have to be noted that offline characters are not necessarily sleeping, but may be otherwise occupied. I'd sure hate to get in trouble because a Commander or Lieutenant had decided my character was asleep because of a way message sent during training time.

Oh well, I'm having trouble collecting my thoughts at the moment, so if none of that makes sense, forgive me Maybe someone can pull some good ideas out of the gibberish though. Blegh.

Gawynn

[Lazloth]

I like the change.

[Delirium]

I gotta go against the vocal majority and say that I totally support this change now, having thought about the pros and cons. Having played characters that are the 'vagabond' or 'runaway' sorts, I know how annoying it is that people can suddenly just 'know' you exist because oops, they can get that 'you're unable to reach their mind' message, so they knew you weren't dead or offline. So boom they track you down and know to look for you. I've also witnessed characters be hunted down and killed, due to abuse of the knowledge gleaned from the Way.

I do agree that this system could be cumbersome and make it harder for people to stay in touch from Allanak to Tuluk - but really - is that SUCH a bad thing? Considering how far apart, ICly, the centers of civilization are supposed to be - it'll make messengers, actual travel, more important, add some sense of distance that really shoulda been there in the first place.

If Sarge can't find that Trooper's mind, what's to say he -isn't- shovelling shit over there in that corner? Why does the OOC knowledge of whether or not he's on or offline need to matter? And woe to the Trooper if his alibi is seen through and he was actually spotted in a tavern when he claims he was shoveling the latrines. In a House? Post on the board some daily/weekly IC meeting times to brief people on happenings and what's coming up.. maybe this will actually place importance on interaction now, instead of just rounding everyone up by the Way.


As I said in my original post in this thread, I would just suggest giving it some time - a week or two - to try it out and see how it goes, then see if we haven't got used to it. The Way isn't supposed to be an IM service, which under the old system, is sort of what it ended up being.


Anyhow, this turned into a long rambling post, because I've been up for 27 hours. :)

[creeper386]

As I said in my original post in this thread, I would just suggest giving it some time - a week or two - to try it out and see how it goes, then see if we haven't got used to it. The Way isn't supposed to be an IM service, which under the old system, is sort of what it ended up being.

Acctually, back then the way was really difficult to reach someone, it wasn't much of any sort of IM service. I have no problem with making it harder to reach someone, or being easier, or adding in things like distance making it harder... But I do have a problem with not being able to tell if someone is online.

Most the time, I look for someone rather they are online or not, and if I was hunting someone down I don't think knowing rather or not they are online would help any. Still, have to find them, and most the time I'd probably save the major searching when someone is online, because the on an OOC level, I'd like a chance to find them. Why scour every where, when no matter where you look you won't find them? Even if you look in the place they would be, since there character is still in the world.

Being offline is an OOC thing and should be treated as such. When they are offline you shouldn't act like you can expect interaction, because it won't happen. It's something that has to be worked around. This little thing doesn't change having to work around someone being offline, it just makes it a big hassle, and this is OOCily, not IC.

And if someone is offline, you should work around that. And not start accusing them from not doing what they are supposed to be doing. Thats to be left when they are logged in and acctually skipping. And how could his alibi be seen through and he was seen at the bar, when he wasn't seen anyplace? Hmm... Seems alittle screwed up. You shouldn't get into trouble because you didnt' do something while offline, and how it is now, you can't tell either way. I can see people are going to skip more often when there are circumstances that make contacting difficult because then their superiours won't be able to contact them and think they are offline. And if the barrier uses the same, you can't reach their mind, they start using that, an IC thing, to act like they are offline, an OOC thing.

I think any problem because of abuse, is because noone knows a damn thing about the way. There is no acctually set things of it. At all. There isn't any suggested information anywhere of how to act when someone is offline. Blah blah blah. From what I've seen, most problems in Arm's past is dealt mostly with informing the masses. If you think this is going to stop people who hunt you only when offline, they could very well just spend more time waying. If they contact you they hunt you. It just means the people abusing things rely even more on the way. While the change is a big hassle for other things.

Creeper who is probably abusing the way the whole time, but wouldn't know if he is.

[CindyLou]

I think part of the biggest problem is that people are lumping offline with dead in the same messaging.

The -only- messaging I'd like to see separate is when someone is offline, but whose character either exists, or has existed up until fairly recently. People who are dead, who have been dead a relatively short time, would still have their "essence" floating around from an IC perspective and could therefore be "unreachable." People who have been dead for game-years, THEY could be put in with the offline messaging.

The contact command would run a search of online characters, then link-dead characters, then sleeping/unconscious characters, then characters who have existed at some point within the past "x" real-life period of time (a month seems reasonable). The database would only have to be searched back that far to find a person's name before it came up with the "That person cannot be contacted no matter how hard you try."

Anyone else, such as misspelled names, the assorted "contact superman" silliness, people who have been dead since the north-south war, and people who are not logged on would have that "That person cannot be contacted, period" message.

This way, the only thing we'd know is whether or not someone is logged in, or if we might have misspelled their name and tried to contact someone who has never existed in the history of the game.

And yeah I know that knowing if someone can be online is abuseable. One of my characters was killed at a particular time because the murderer made sure a certain other person was -not- online first. And yeah it sucks, and yeah I was apeshit pissed about it at the time.

But even though I was a victim of this kind of abuse, I STILL think it benefits people who use the system fairly more often than it benefits those willing to abuse it.

A possible suggestion to make at least some people happy while maintaining the sudden need to have the Way politically correct is to maybe make it so you CAN successfully contact people that arnt online, as long as they are alive. That way it could just be that they cant respond back. Might make at least a few parties happy... that way your not wasting hours trying to contact someone.

[Clegane]

Well, seeing as I didn't plow through all 4 pages of this thread, it is decidedly possible that my post may be little more than rehash of a dozen previously posted opinions.

Nonetheless, my thoughts on the matter are this:
A> I think it is a bit premature to voice immediate complaints, as no one player has yet had enough time to fully analyze the various features included with this change.  The initially-visible effects seem to have elicited a fairly negative response, sure. But my advice (and what I am doing, myself) is to take a week or two and feel the change out. That seems to me to be a rational and sensible approach. Yes, everyone is free to voice their opinions. I just feel that an uninformed opinion makes for a poor argument.

B> Have a bit of faith in the Staff. Obviously, they are not going to implement a change whose sole purpose is to piss off their dedicated playerbase. It is, I believe, the desire of the staff to see the mud thrive and prosper. Obviously, bearing this in mind, they will not be conducting a universal action that results in mass negativity from the playerbase. Not unless they have a more developed agenda than is readily evident. Ie, that this feature has some benefits on the back-end that aren't fully realized yet.

[crymerci]

All that the old message did was provide OOC information which players immediately applied towards their character's decisions and behavior.  That's all it was being used for, plain and simple.  It's not a playability issue, it's an abuse issue.  

As for playability, I believe the change will actually foster more interaction.  Without being sarcastic, would it really be such a bad thing to get out and about and look for your friend?  Maybe while you're looking for them at their favorite hangout you'll run into some fresh new faces along the way and get involved in some of the other plotlines and interactions that are happening out in the world.  Why sit in your favorite quit-spot alone and limit yourself to playing with only a couple friends?

Some of us actually used the ooc information for our own decisions, not just our characters'.  I am not a solo player, and I am also not going to interact with people my character wouldn't interact with.  If there are only 4 people in the entire gameworld I want to RP with, or with whom my character has a connection, then I want to know if they are online or not.  To be frank, there are certain roles that I will be much less likely to play now (slave, for example).

I just don't subscribe to the "it hinders the playability of the game" argument here, quite the opposite.  I think people who hide themselves away and only stick around when their clique is online are denying themselves and the other roleplayers in the game the opportunity for some fantastic interactions.

Yes, hiding away does limit things for other people.  I've been on the bad end of that when I don't see anyone around to interact with.  At the same time, none of us are obliged to make the gameworld enjoyable for everyone.  Yes, the game is cliquey.  It is made up predominantly of clans, what else is it going to be?  Some roles more social than others.  I don't want to see everyone in the same mold.

Also, with the other changes made to psionics the Way should become a great deal easier to use.  Contacting someone should not fail as often as it used to, for those who use the Way regularly.  The drain from using the Way should also be less severe.  I think the Way will become far more useful as a result.  This can only have a positive outcome for the game and players alike.

I think it's an interesting change.  I don't think I like it, but I'll give it a shot. At this point, however, I think I would rather spend a half hour trying to contact someone who I know I can actually reach, and risk passing out during the contact.

[Forest Junkie]

*Note* After offending somebody with my -JOKE-, I have decided that humor is not allowed in this thread, and I have hence removed my remark I made. I am a very bad boy, and should be spanked with a wet noodle.

[crymerci]

Look everybody...

Just suck it up. :twisted:

Bite me. I'm entitled to my opinion.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

While I understand why it was taken out, I believe that additional skills or other such options should become available to those who wish to use them. Primarily, the option to save contacts while off-line is excellent. Also, instances where people do not exist or are long dead should, by chance, give a message to that effect. I do like the change because it effects hunting down people, and I like that I never really know where they are. But playability does come into view here, and it does greatly reduce the ability to congregate with your friends and so forth. It is, in my opinion, a mixed bag no matter which version of the Way stayed in the game.

That said, in the end, what if we did not have the Way period? We would have adapted to it, and we will adapt to this as well. This is Armageddon, and the Way is a lovely feature in its most basic form. Let us see where this takes us.

[Ender]

I remember a time when you couldn't discern whether a person was online or not by using the way.  The message was then changed maybe a year ago to reflect whether you could contact the person or not.

The game really didn't seem easier or more fun because of this change, infact it may have made me a little lazier.  I am glad the change occured because I feel it accurately represents how I imagine the way to work.   I honestly don't think it will truly hamper playability as much as everyone thinks.

I was still playing happily well before I could tell whether people were online with the way.

[Savak]

Most of the debate against this change thus far sounds like "I was using this OOC knowledge IC'ly and I don't want to give that up."  While I very much appreciate the recognition that this was, in fact, OOC knowledge and that it was being heavily used to influence game play, at the same time this is one major reason for the change.

What we would like to see now is just exactly how this -does- influence the game.  Your various predictions have been noted, mind, but it's time to put it all to the test.  So, feel free to comment on, but realize a reversion will not be made immediately -- still, as with all things, it will be subject to ongoing consideration.

Some of the other additions/alternatives suggested are interesting.. I dunno how feasible, but interesting anyway.  I, for one, will have to mull them over before making a serious comment I think.

-Savak

[X-D]

Ok, on day two of using the 'new' way, Still don't like it for the same reasons I've stated before, the single basicly nul message on a fail.

But the other 'fixes' seem to be working well, but one new thing, though not being able to contact NPC's might cut down on the amount of 'wrong numbers' I'm kind of missing it. Now and again in the past I've needed to contact an npc, shrug.

[Twilight]

I will wait until I've played with the Way a bit to see what changes beyond what has been posted about being able to tell if someone is online or not to make my full opinion.

However, that being said, I already have a very, very good idea of how things will change, if all that was done was remove the OOC way of knowing whether someone is online or not.  I would surmise that most of the older players and imms do, or at least should know this as well, as this is the second time this has happened.

To refresh people's memories, there was a time when you got the same message for someone online or offline, but you got a wait state if it was someone who was online, and you did not get a wait state if it was someone offline (this was changed, um, around the time stun points came into the game, can't remember if it was right before or right after that).  I don't remember any discussion about the change on the board then, maybe it wasn't a very well known trick.

When the change in messaging came back in, a few years later, I assumed it was precisely so that you could tell if someone was online or offline.  While I can't remember off the top of my head if there was discussion on the board about it or not, I tend towards thinking there was.

Having been through (at least from what has been posted about the change so far) precisely this change once before (taking away the OOC knowledge of if someone is online or offline) my opinion is that this change will only minimally impact characters, but that it has a greater impact on players, given my particular playstyle, at least.

My character is not going to act differently if I know someone is online or offline.  To do otherwise is, well, bad, IMHO.  It will impact players though, especially those with limited amounts of time to play.  Those sessions when I might only have 15 mins to log in, and would only really do so because I have something specific I want to accomplish, are gone.  I wouldn't bother to even log in.  Not everyone has a couple of hours to spend on the game, in a row.  Having the knowledge we did helped with this, and helped those players with time constraints accomplish things.  Using the OOC knowledge of this part of the code for OOC decisions seems fine to me.

Having been through this once, I lean slightly towards letting the players have the OOC knowledge, and sorting out the problem people on an individual basis.  The ones abusing this are the ones probably abusing other aspects of OOC knowledge.  By abuse I mean letting the OOC knowledge influence IC events.  I come out on the side of allowing the OOC knowledge so that it can influence the player's real life decision's.  RL is more important than the game, always and in every case.

I think there are a couple of things that could be done to change my opinion on this one aspect of the changes made.  Making it easier to contact PCs (and NPCs, sometimes you have the wrong name/keyword) and ging a different and clear message if someone (PC or NPC) is barriered is what I can think of.  Or letting me play a psi!  But then everyone else still has the same problem.

[creeper386]

While I very much appreciate the recognition that this was, in fact, OOC knowledge and that it was being heavily used to influence game play, at the same time this is one major reason for the change.

My character is not going to act differently if I know someone is online or offline. To do otherwise is, well, bad, IMHO.

Now, theres a problem with it. Of course the OOC thing of someone logging out is going to change IC things. It just depends on how you do it if it is bad or not.

If you wait tell someones PC guard is offline and then kill them, thats bad. If you wait tell someone is online and thats the ONLY time you look for them period, thats probably bad. If you wait untill you know someone is offline to rob there house, thats probably bad, but all that doesn't mean that people logging out and that changing things is going to be all terribly bad.

Lets say your planning a trip into the desert. Your three buddies end up having to log out even though ICily they were going on this trip. Are you still going to go and RP as if they are there virtually? No. A) Because it'd be bad to RP others characters, and B) You'd probably get raped up the ass by a bunch of big, rabid ape-like bugs.

Another thing, you and your IC pals always hit the bars at night. Sit at your table and talk. If they are logged out. Are you still going to show up and sit at your table and talk to your virtual pals that are offline? Probably not. Your going to do something else even though it's not the common thing for your character to do. Or maybe your whole clan is offline. Are you still going to go through a clan meeting all with virtual people? Maybe go spar with virtual people. It's a PC only clan, all the PCs are offline, but they would be at training. So you should be sparring with them, yes? If not, your letting the OOC knowledge that they are offline effect IC things.

Shrug, maybe I'm just thinking way out there, but this little change isn't going to change the fact that OOC knowledge of someone logged out is going to change IC RP. Of course it is. It's just going to be alot more frustrating, because you can't tell even if you fail at the contact because you suck or you fail because their mind is "occupied"(Meaning any reason why you can't reach them). And it's going to be even more OOCily frustrating because it effects short term planning. Alot of everything is going to go into long term planning unless everyone some how already gathers together... Like some predecided gather at 8 PM GMT every Sunday at this place and see if there are enough people to go do something. Again... maybe it's just me being a big twinky cream filled yellow bread thing.

Creeper

[creeper386]

OKAY OKAY OKAY. Don't worry. Enough of my ranting. On to my suggestion finally! *Loud cheering and standing ovation*

Alright, here it goes...

Complete and utter failure due to failed skill check/doesn't exist.

Code Select Expand

>You are unable to find their mind.

Fail because they are offline/dead/asleep/shield/under mindbender power/in tek's tower/other related anomalies.

Code Select Expand

>You find their mind but are unable to establish a connection.

Less of a fail then complete and utter fail, but they are online(In other words acctually reachable).

Code Select Expand

>You find their mind, but the connection is too weak.

Success while they are online(You connect and are able to send psi's and what not).

Code Select Expand

>You find their mind, and establish a connection.

Thats about it. Although might need some changes... It seems reasonable. Your able to tell if they are online, but doesn't mean they are offline if you get something else. Possible for a complete failure either way, and a connection.

[EDIT]
For anyone that doesn't understand, you lump everything into four categories, Complete Failure(You suck, this can be left out), Failure w/o Being Reachable, Failure w/Being Reachable, and Connection. Thats it.
[/EDIT]

Any comments/remarks welcome, as long as they are some sort of praise. Criticism isn't welcome, remember I am superiour in everyway, so you have no room to talk. :twisted:

Creeper

[Lazloth]

Christ already, just let it go.

[Plazgoth]

Fail because they are offline/dead/asleep/shield/under mindbender power/in tek's tower/other related anomalies.

Code Select Expand

>You find their mind but are unable to establish a connection.

I agree just let it go. Anyway the logic is flawed. In the above case one can type "contact <anything>" and it will say that you found it's mind.

[creeper386]

I agree just let it go. Anyway the logic is flawed. In the above case one can type "contact <anything>" and it will say that you found it's mind.

Acctually...

Complete and utter failure due to failed skill check/doesn't exist.

Code Select Expand

>You are unable to find their mind.

Maybe I should have been clearer, but the doesn't exist means it DOESN'T EXIST. No PC with the name/keyword, and no NPC with the name/keyword, no nothing with the name/keyword.

And just remember next time. Everyone. If your told just to give it up already you should give it up. You shouldn't ever suggest anything ever, ever again because someone might not like it. To that whole thing, I say shut the fuck up. If you don't like it don't fucking worry about reading it or in the least don't take even more time to reply just to say, give it up already.

Creeper

[Pungee]

Well, I like whatever the Staff did to the code. For some reason today was the very first time I used the Way and didn't have to try thirty-six times before getting through. Ok, so thirty-six times is an exageration. But you get the idea. It took a lot of stun (more than usual in my opinion) but it worked. And I didn't have to try over and over again. So whatever the Staff did. I like it. Contact was a largely useless command for most of my characters since it never seemed to work. It worked nicely. I like that. Bravo to the Staff  

[Travel Cake]

Well, it's been a week. I find that I have adjusted to the change. How odd. A week ago I thought it was impossible.

[Northerner]

'Prefer it this way, aye.

[Bestatte]

What I like about the new change:

It's easier to succeed if the person is there, conscious, awake, not blocked.

What I don't like about the new change:

1) It's easier to succeed if the person is there, conscious, awake, not blocked. I don't like that, because now I have no idea if I'm succeededing -only- because it's been changed, or if it might be -also- because my skill boosted as a result of regular use.

2) I have no way of knowing if the person I'm trying to contact *unsuccessfully* is not logged on, or if they're simply blocked, unconscious, asleep, dead, or just plain thick-headed. All of those possible reasons for failure are IC reasons, except one, and I still want that one to be separate from the IC ones, for the reasons I've stated in the past - that it's OOC information, not IC information.

So my opinion hasn't changed a bit, and it remains as it was for the same reason I posted when it first came out.

I still would like to see some separation made between the IC reasons for a failure and the one and only OOC reason - that the person simply is not logged in to the game.

[X-D]

Shrug, still dislike it this way And now pretty much only use the way when the person is in sight or to reply to somebody who has contacted my char, at least I know they are about then, and even then I'm only try twice if they have already broken contact.

[creeper386]

My opinions still the same. And although I don't use it that much... I succeed far less then I did before... Basically, the way doesn't pop into my head as a way to comunicate anymore.

And like everyone said about the opinion changing after using it. My opinion about differenciating different failures still has not change, and well not change. Although I can see why you wouldn't want to be able to tell FOR SURE rather or not they were logged in... Thats why I suggested the idea that noone cared to look at and just told me to shut up over. Which I still say screw you, just so you know.

Anyways, I personally see it as not being any better... Was quite good at using the way before and now have more troubles... And it costs WAY more stun then before it seems. Oh well. My opinion doesn't matter it the slightest. So it's all cool.


Creeper

[Forest Junkie]

Something I realized about the revision of the way. It seems that when you try and contact someone not logged on, it takes less stun away than if you fail contacting someone who is NOT logged on.

So there is STILL an OOC issue that needs to be fixed, if I'm not being delusional that is. :twisted:

[Sanvean]

It seems that when you try and contact someone not logged on, it takes less stun away than if you fail contacting someone who is NOT logged on.

Are your modifiers in that sentence exactly where you want them to be? What's the difference between not logged on and NOT logged on, aside from the capskey?

[Forest Junkie]

Holy shit way to make me feel stupid(obviously not that hard to do)

What I MEANT to say was that it seems that when a person IS LOGGED ON, it takes alot of stun away when you fail to contact them...Though, when they are NOT LOGGED ON, it seems to take LESS stun away when you fail to contact them...

I hope that sounds a little better...

Damn what a friggin schmuck I am... :evil:

[Rindan]

I personally think the changes are a fine idea.  The Way, I imagine, was orginally put in as a crutch to get around the fact that there are no global channels.  Remember, Armageddon was not always the RP MUD it is today.  Now we have moved on.  The slightly hokey notion that everyone is a skilled telepath isn't so badly needed.  Now the way is far more unreliable and unstable.  If you see someone sitting across the room, you know that if you try hard enough you will get them.  If you don't see them or know where they are, you might go for IC days or weeks before you get a contact.

It is easily explained away in RP.  Waying to someone you can see is a skill most people have.  Once you start making the distance farther or don't know where the person is exactly, it becomes far more unreliable.  So, you need to contact lord Templar Inbreed.  If you saw him walking down the street a few hours ago, you can probably stand a fair chance of snagging his mind.  If you are just chilling in the Gaj and Lord Templar Inbreed could be anywhere (or OOCly logged off) it is a game of hit or miss.  The way works in mysterious ways.  Some days you might get someone on the first hit, other times it might take a month of trying before you snag them.  The way is a tool.  Reliable across a room, but if you try and make it work farther then that your luck could be anything.

As someone who has been a fugitive, it is a welcomed change.  Life is a lot harder when your potential hunter can always keep tabs on you just by trying to contact you ever now and then.  I see the potential pain this might cause, but I also see how this could now make the role of a currier far more useful.  If the way is not exactly reliable, and you can't tell if you are just failing or a person is offline, it suddenly becomes worthwhile to send your message by foot so that they can hunt around for that person and see when they log in.

[Twilight]

Heh, actually the way is an obvious holdover from Dark Sun, where everything still left alive has some type of psionic power.  PCs in a Dark Sun game all rolled for a wild talent.

[creeper386]

Now we have moved on. The slightly hokey notion that everyone is a skilled telepath isn't so badly needed. Now the way is far more unreliable and unstable. If you see someone sitting across the room, you know that if you try hard enough you will get them. If you don't see them or know where they are, you might go for IC days or weeks before you get a contact.

There is at least one problem here. The reliance on a written language for the masses was passed off as the ability to use psionics to send messages and such. If you always have troubles finding them, it'd put ALOT more stress and most likely more of a chance written communication would evolve. Also, now... How in the hell does every Militia man in town know that there is a thief and what he looks like if the way is so hard? Shrug, somethings don't fit with the way being more difficult if you "don't know where they are."

Also... If they are logged out... Who says you don't know where they are... Virtually they could very well be sitting right with you or at the other end of the bar. Just because the player is gone doesn't mean the character is. Being offline is a problem. Although, there can be some twinkiness over it... Something still needs to be tweaked. Not neccessarily saying, well he's offline, but at least giving you an idea that you failed to contact him because of skill or you failed to contact him because he's unreachable. That alone would be fine, and completely reasonable. And don't give me this honky bullshit that people hunting you used the way to know if you are logged on or not. That DOESN'T tell them where you are. Also that doesn't mean they ONLY searched for you when you were online. That Doesn't mean they weren't keeping an eye out for you and asking around. If they know that you are online.. That only tells them that they might be able to expect finding you on an OOC level, ICally it doesn't mean SHIT because they could contact you rather you were offline or not because your PC is still in the world. Personally I find it's much more likely for people to use the way to look like they are offline and to effect other peoples RPs that way instead, and it's the same thing over all. Opp... They think I'm offline, they'll NEVER expect me to kill them now.

And if you look at my suggestion, it would just give alittle more IC information to be able to RP off of. Instead of making the Way a completely fickle thing  that isn't even worth the trouble more often then not. Which if it is the case... It wouldn't have been relied upon... And the history would have been changed and the world would be different.


Creeper

[Delirium]

The Way has been a lot easier for me, actually, if the person is available and online. Maybe your character just really sucks at it.

[Stroker]

Exactly the same for me, as was previously noted, the way is easier to use now and, therefore, you can contact those present easier. I see no problems with it.

[spawnloser]

I'm with Dirr and Delerium...I've found the way to be much easier to use as of late.  I'm also with whoever said a while back (I'm not going to search the entire thread to find who, so I'm sorry) that this will force people to find other ways to find people.  Granted, I still use the Way a lot to find people, but I've actually met more people in a shorter amount of time and had some interesting RP because of the fact that my character wasn't being a hermit that only hung out with friends.