Was the way fiddled with?

Started by Travel Cake, June 07, 2003, 11:54:41 PM

It seems more difficult to use than it was. My imagination? Deliberate change? Bugged?

Please can we put it back?
It takes two hands to open this safe. The manager has only one.

To go with the Way question... how come all the responces come back the same now?  Is that intentional?  If so, why?
"The Highlord casts a shadow because he does not want to see skin!" -- Boog

<this space for rent>

Personally, I have no idea what either of you are talking about.
Quote from: MalifaxisWe need to listen to spawnloser.
Quote from: Reiterationspawnloser knows all

Quote from: SpoonA magicker is kind of like a mousetrap, the fear is the cheese. But this cheese has an AK47.

I'm not sure if we should tell or if we should wait a day so everyone finds out before we have what I believe will be a very large discussion...

Ok, well then I'll hold on a day or so.

But while I understand and agree with some of the reasons this may have been done, I think the drawbacks, which I will wait to detail, outway the benefits.
It takes two hands to open this safe. The manager has only one.

Myself, I've been having an easier time of Waying people since the reboot, so go ahead and be enigmatic.  I won't care either way.
Quote from: MalifaxisWe need to listen to spawnloser.
Quote from: Reiterationspawnloser knows all

Quote from: SpoonA magicker is kind of like a mousetrap, the fear is the cheese. But this cheese has an AK47.

If your saying that the message for offline was changed to you can't reach them. I serious wouldn't like it. If they are offline I really don't want to spend a good portion of my characters morning trying to contact them. It's rather silly. If they are offline, that's an OOC thing and although telling you they are offline some what effects RP, it's alot better then continuing something IC when it's impossible to do because the person isn't even online.

But I haven't even logged in yet, just got off work.


Creeper
21sters Unite!

Oh, yes, I do believe that the 'You've never heard of that person' message has been removed.
Quote from: MalifaxisWe need to listen to spawnloser.
Quote from: Reiterationspawnloser knows all

Quote from: SpoonA magicker is kind of like a mousetrap, the fear is the cheese. But this cheese has an AK47.

And that my friend, is really, extremely fucked up. Well... Add in a completely too. It's the type of thing thats going to FORCE people to exchange IM screen names just to know if they person is online or not. If it stays as it is, you can't do ANY IC planning for the most part. Especially not anything short term, because you could spend a full IC day just trying to figure out if your three buddies are offline, and thats even with my current character having a damn good stun and can way alot. Bleh.

No offense to whoevers idea it was, but it's a stupid change. Could have been worded better, and I'd like if they were dead you still got the you can't reach there mind, so that way, you know for a fact, that they are offline, or they are online/dead. Which makes more sense to me.


Creeper
21sters Unite!

I can agree to the point that I think you should be able to tell if they are offline, just so that you don't waste the time.  I do not think that you should be able to tell if they're dead though...I don't know how that would work, though, because if they're dead, the character's not online, meaning that you would get the same response unless the code was unnecessarily complex...keeping track of all dead PCs.  It just seems cumbersome...I don't know that the solution should be, but then, I haven't succesfully contacted someone that was offline yet.  If you can and then when you try to actually send a message get the 'something is blocking your telepathy' message, I'd be fine with the way it is.  We could assume that the other person is asleep, which (from my experience) is the most popular excuse given when someone get's the 'you've never heard of that person' response when trying to contact to begin with.
Quote from: MalifaxisWe need to listen to spawnloser.
Quote from: Reiterationspawnloser knows all

Quote from: SpoonA magicker is kind of like a mousetrap, the fear is the cheese. But this cheese has an AK47.

I personally would rather have off-line/dead with one message and on-line with another.

Having spent two frantic hours trying to reach one person once (turned out to be an NPC) I can vouch that it is oocly frustrating to keep trying more than an ic day.

Quote from: "Sintti"Having spent two frantic hours trying to reach one person once (turned out to be an NPC) I can vouch that it is oocly frustrating to keep trying more than an ic day.
Oh, believe me, I understand.  I don't think that OOC things like someone not being logged in should interfere with the IC environment, which having no differentiation between a simple fail or target offline.
Quote from: MalifaxisWe need to listen to spawnloser.
Quote from: Reiterationspawnloser knows all

Quote from: SpoonA magicker is kind of like a mousetrap, the fear is the cheese. But this cheese has an AK47.

QuoteI do not think that you should be able to tell if they're dead though...I don't know how that would work, though, because if they're dead, the character's not online, meaning that you would get the same response unless the code was unnecessarily complex...keeping track of all dead PCs.

I don't think I said you'd be able to tell if they were dead. See if they are offline, that's an OOC thing. So you should know for sure if they are offline or they are online. Now, if they are dead, thats an IC thing. The staff already said they don't want it to be that easy to tell if they are dead. If they are dead, and it shows they are still in the world, maybe after awhile of not being able to reach their head or reaching others heads, you'd assume they are gone, but that doesn't neccessarily mean they are gone.

And, the game already keeps track of dead characters. At least there is the list in your account. If the character name is in that list and not the active character, it could say they are still around.

But then, I'd also like to see the way code more complex, like being able to use several things. Something like,

contact bob burly, curly-haired man

Would almost always garuntee the right person, while

contact fred black man

Might reach some other character named Fred, and

contact sinewy

Will reach any character with sinewy, so the more you know the better chance you have of getting the right person.

And it DOES relate all back to the change in the way code and how I want it changed back with a definate offline message and the online/dead can't connect message being the same but I can't figure out how to explain it right now and people are complaining, so I'm out.

Creeper
21sters Unite!

I am forced to agreed with nearly all of the above posters on this change.

I think this is one of those instances where playability needs to win out over other goals.
iva La Resistance!
<Miee> The Helper Death Commando is right.

Ok, I know of at least one reason this might have been changed.  But there is an IC answer that has nothing to do with the Way.  If you are a leader and wish to know if someone is ditching duties vs. logging out well... just demand the character to give an excuse.  I know things like that allows for abuse but really its a big help to know if someone is online or not.
"The Highlord casts a shadow because he does not want to see skin!" -- Boog

<this space for rent>

Quote from: "creeper386"No offense to whoevers idea it was, but it's a stupid change.

I thought I should add that I don't believe the change to be stupid, although I do disagree with it.  

Because the way allows people to know whether certain PC's are online or not, it can be abused by allowing people to do something they might otherwise not do if that PC was online.  A change like this could address those problems, although that isn't necesssarily why the change was made.

However, I doubt anyone is making a real habit of that or that a large number of people would be doing it.  I can understand the realism angle where if you don't reach a certain person, you simply don't reach them, why should the message be any different?

The problem is, by addressing either of those or other issues with the way by making this change, I feel that it is actually harming the game, rather than adding to it.  A large part of the game is interaction, after all, and if people are busy wasting their time trying to way characters that are not online rather than interacting with those that are online, the game and the RP suffers in my opinion.

In an ideal Zalanthas, characters would always be on and you could contact them and send messages whenever, barring any failing with the way.  To me, it is unrealistic that people would continually go through long stretches of not being able to contact someone that they normally would be able to reach, simply for the OOC reason that they are not in game.  

Again, I think this harms rather than adds to the game, and that playability needs to win out in this instance.
iva La Resistance!
<Miee> The Helper Death Commando is right.

Yup, this really sucks, Oh sure, you get to RP that the person you were trying to contact was sleeping hard or something, But having had to deal with this tonight of trying for a real life hour to contact somebody who was not even logged in, this just wasted my time and everybody playing around me.


On the same point of wasting time, what if it is some type of emergancy in game, you need to contact a templar, noble, employer, whatever, the dragon is invading, Oh, you can't reach him but you have no idea if he is on so you attempt a few more times and get eaten by the dragon before you can warn anybody and so he waltzes into nak catching everybody sleeping...ah what a nice snack for him.


And it is even worse for new chars, at least if you have a 30 day and you fail 10 times you can figure either the char is asleep, blocking or not on.

But a new char can fail 10, 20 times trying to way somebody right next to them.


It does Suck.
A gaunt, yellow-skinned gith shrieks in fear, and hauls ass.
Lizzie:
If you -want- me to think that your character is a hybrid of a black kryl and a white push-broom shaped like a penis, then you've done a great job

The complaints of wasting time today are pretty much meaningless, by tomorrow the playerbase will have adapted.

I'm guessing that the outcome of this new system is that players will take the Way with a grain of salt on a failure, you'll try a couple times, and then get on with things, try another couple times later, but nobody will waste so much time from now on, you'll waste as much or less time than you do with the previous system. Just an opinion, and a guess, of course.

Or stop using it altogether, but that or gfair's way will still reduce interaction by increasing the time it takes to find someone that you wish to interact with, eventually causing a lot more people to play loner chars OR stay in one spot idle waiting for the people they need to deal with to be around, which also reduces overall interaction. Regardless on wether or not the players can adapt to it in anyway, I see no way that this change (if indeed it is a change, no staff have spoken yet, it could be a bug I suppose) Helps in the playability of the game or the game world.
None, Zero, Zilch, Nada.
IMO
A gaunt, yellow-skinned gith shrieks in fear, and hauls ass.
Lizzie:
If you -want- me to think that your character is a hybrid of a black kryl and a white push-broom shaped like a penis, then you've done a great job

Quote from: "X-D"I see no way that this change (if indeed it is a change, no staff have spoken yet, it could be a bug I suppose) Helps in the playability of the game or the game world.
None, Zero, Zilch, Nada.
IMO


My bet on why the change was introduced was precisely for the reason everyone is complaining - you don't know whether the person is trying to contact is actually on or not.  To us, it's an advantage, but in reality from the IMM perspective, it's a way of getting OOC information from the game code.  It affects the way players make decisions to know whether a person is on or off.  

Yeah, name sharing may skyrocket - news flash: that isn't against the rules.  Passing information OOC about IC is against the rules, and this change doesn't hinder the ability of IMMs to find that out.  You're at greater risk of being punished if you share IC information OOC with more people, because it means you're more likely to slip up and get caught.

This reminds me of the whole backlash with the desert elf change. ;)

I can see both sides of the debate - and I'd say give it a week to try it out, and then if everyone's just as angry about it, then decide what to do.

I don't think anyone is angry. I think people are disturbed by the prospect of not being able to reach the people they need to reach. After all, the population is illiterate. You can't leave notes. Only the richest people can afford messengers.

It's just frustrating and daunting (as has been noted above a few times) to imagine only having an hour or two to play, and spending it laying in the dorm at the gaj waying the people you need, unable to determine if you're wasting your time.


I think what most people are saying is, please, change it back
Varak:You tell the mangy, pointy-eared gortok, in sirihish: "What, girl? You say the sorceror-king has fallen down the well?"
Ghardoan:A pitiful voice rises from the well below, "I've fallen and I can't get up..."

I'm going to go against the grain and speak in favor of such a change, which I've yet to verify it happening in game as of yet.  Two reasons for my being for the change:

1) I don't think it's particularly fair for people to know I am online simply by failing to contact me over the Way -- shouldn't succeeding be enough?

2) I see a lot of complaints about having to spend ridiculous amounts of time trying to reach someone now.  Don't.  Why not give up after a few attempts?  Consider the Way a tool used scarcely.  In the Dark Sun books very few people were able to use it to the capacity we all have been (that being, not unlike a 'tell' command on stock diku where you can communicate with someone in another part of the game as you).  If you're resting in some corner contacting over and over and over, you really ought to yield to the fact that a) (s)he's either not online, or b) your use with the mysterious (somewhat frightening) powers of the Way are limited -- and thankfully so, since you're not some demonic mindbender.

That said, I definately agree to feeling slightly disadvantaged now to this alleged change.

From the psi help files:
QuoteAs species have evolved, humans found themselves at a disadvantage. No longer the strongest, fastest, or even smartest beings around, their survival was in jeopardy. For one reason or another, the human brain was able to unlock more psionic powers than any of the other beings.

I, as well, can see points on both sides of the arguement... in my humble opinion, the change is not for the best.  I can't agree more with the playability needs to win out statement, because this is kinda harsh.

The change does make much sense, in that it does suck that people can just know you're not on, and act around it, however... to this, I offer yet another of my cracked out suggestions:

Make a 'find' psi skill, available to everyone, branchable after you get good enough at contact (or just automatic, if the imms are feeling really really nice).  Since you need to establish contact for all psi skills and messages, this one would have to act out side of that.  Basically, it would be like trying to 'ping' someones mind.  Since you're actively searching for them, it would have hellacious lag, and take a goodly amount of psi... since there is literally a sea of minds to wade through looking for the right one.  

If we're going to stick with these changes, I would very much like to see a reduced cost on contact, just to make it a bit more feasible... or perhaps, a reduced cost on failed contacts, full price on contacts that complete?

This really does, as far as I see it, hurt the newbers more than anyone... I can see more than a few of them deciding "Well, maybe Sarge is right outside the gates, and I can find him easy enough" only to become the next serving of purina gith/gortok/spider chow.
Yes. Read the thread if you want, or skip to page 7 and be dismissive.
-Reiloth

Words I repeat every time I start a post:
Quote from: Rathustra on June 23, 2016, 03:29:08 PM
Stop being shitty to each other.

I can understand the need for -a- change with the Way, but I don't think this is the most appropriate one.

contact (person who is publically and officially known to have been dead for a *real life year*)

You are unable to reach their mind.

Umm..no. They don't exist, and haven't existed for around a game-wide DECADE...their mind doesn't exist..so "reaching their mind" shouldn't even be part of the echo.

What I'd rather see...which I posted WAYYYY back when I first started here as a newbie:

One message for being unable to contact a character who *does* exist, whose player *is* logged on... or whose character has existed until recently (say, within the past game-month or year).

Another message for being unable to contact a character who has not existed for at least a game-month or year, or who does currently exist but whose player is logged off.

I absolutely and definitely understand the need for not hinting that the character who was alive yesterday is dead today. But contacting someone who hasn't been around since the North-South war is stretching it by a mile.

In addition, a high-powered mindbender - from what I would think based on the docs.. would be able to break through a barrier. This "unable to reach" thing *can* imply that a character is logged in the game but with their barrier up. What's a mindbender to think, if they can't break through? From a *strictly* IC perspective, if I was one, I'd think the person I'm trying to contact has a barrier far more powerful than my ability to break through, which of COURSE means they're a mindbender too....

That could prove to be a very ugly situation, caused by an OOC mechanic.

I'm hoping this is just a bug, and that it'll be fixed soon, because my character is LOUSY with the way and therefore *I* have no way of knowing if I should stop trying to contact someone after the first few tries, or if I should keep going for a real-life hour just becuase there's something important going on that the person I'm trying to contact needs to know about.

And sitting there for a real-life hour could mean that I am removing myself from that "something important," thus losing precious play-time and RP time.

I also agree that it would also encourage people to use OOC means outside the game (AIM, MS Messenger, IRC, etc) to find out if their target is logged in, and that can only harm the integrity of the game in the long run. I know I for one would not want everyone and their brother sending me AIM messages just to ask if I'm logged in - and yet I would avail myself simply because I'd end up doing the same to others that I try to contact.

I can't agree that it was a stupid change..because I have no idea why it was changed. It could be the smartest idea the staff has come up with so far, for all I know. But regardless, I don't like it one bit.

That is all.