Magicker population?

[Eloran]

That's more of an OOC response LoD. [Among other things noted that I concur with]

IAWLODLOLJK

IAWJH

[LoD]

That's more of an OOC response LoD. I don't believe, in general, that it is true ICly. For the Allanaki, nothing has changed really. For the Tuluki, nothing has changed really. Players have an OOC perception that things have changed, and they do. But ICly, things aren't any different in regards to magickers. Simply because there are more pc gemmers being seen in Allanak, it does not mean IC that there are suddenly more magickers. They're there all the time.
Because some players OOCly feel this way, it does not mean that things have changed IC and that players have a free pass to act upon those OOC desires in character.
Unless I'm misunderstanding your post, and if I am, I apologize in advance, that seems to be what you're saying.
Ignorance is -usually- developed from a lack of experience or knowledge. Not -always-.Iin the case of magickers, it not only develops from ignorance but is literally bred into most Zalanthans from birth.

I imagine you can honestly expect a mixture of OOC and IC reactions by characters toward magick, partially dependent upon the longevity of a given character.  This isn't to say that I would condone such OOC motivation, I'm merely addressing the issue and explaining my perception of the problem.  The proliferation of magick, despite it being described as being rare and mysterious, is a contradiction that only serves to perpetuate the issues described in my post.

In the city-state of Allanak, magickers have the same rights as other commoners.  They live close by, frequent the same establishments, suffer the same punishments by the soldiers, and so I wouldn't expect to the see the same degree of naked fear and hatred expressed toward magickers as I would of a northern born character who has never had the chance or opportunity to witness, mingle with, speak to, or observe any known magickers.

You cannot sustain a black and white perspective in a world of color, and that is what Zalanthas paints with its current culture.  Claiming that every mundane would react the same way when encountering a magicker would be as unfair as saying that every magicker should react the same way to encountering a mundane.  The lines are blurred by history and context.

Mojo, a newly approved desert elf of the SLK may not have had a run-in with the magicker-of-the-month claiming ownership of some water hole on their lands, but his sustained and virtual tribe surely has encountered and dealt with them enough to teach him, from birth, that it's been their experience a spear through the gut works just as well as hiding in the grass.

Crusher, an experienced soldier in the Arm of the Dragon in Allanak might have spent his first five years shivering in his boots every time he was forced to withstand the company of a magicker, but after nearly fifteen years he's made his peace with his chances based purely on statistics and experience.

Jimbo, a career logger out of Tuluk may have been approached by an invisible voice one day while chopping lumber in the scrub, only to scream and flee madly into the city-state where he promptly cowered against a wall and sobbed himself to sleep out of fear.

My point is that the world is going to react differently to magick, and much of it is going to have shed its paralytic shock in the face of most things magickal due to consistent exposure.  Your character might have been bred from birth to believe that people call templars "Faithful Lord/Lady" -- because they do.  Your character might have been bred from birth to believe that elves are too proud to ride kanks -- because they don't.  Your character might have been bred from birth to believe that Thexi has an endless supply of waterskins -- because he does.

And when someone says that you've been bred to believe that magickers are fire-breathing demons that eat babies and steal souls in the night -- tell that to gemmed at table 5 who just ordered the chicken kickers and are buying you a round of ale.

The world that handles magickers with levels of absolute fear and hatred isn't the one that we play in.

-LoD

[spawnloser]

The point others are making is that they wouldn't be taught the things you're saying they would be, LoD.  They'd be told about occasions where a spear through the gut killed a magicker, but there will be so many other stories about magickers that wiped out entire hunting parties.  Which story will stick with someone for longer?  That militia guy?  Yeah, sure, he's had to deal with them so isn't scared just to be around them... but to hunt them?  He's likely also seen gemmers working for Templars do things that would scare ten of him, reinforcing his fear, not reducing it.

I believe that people wanting to play MundaneMUD as SaltMerchant so aptly coined the phrase because they like the Conan type and dislike the Merlin type have preconceived ideas of what certain words/phrases mean... like Low Fantasy, which does not mean Low Magick, though people claim they are synonyms.  Many have said they are not.  Who's right?  The staff is when they say that people are raised to hate and fear magickers.  It is OOC motivation (and this is clear to me) that causes some people to cause their characters to get over the fear and go hunting magickers, no matter the justifications or rationalizations.

[Eloran]

It is OOC motivation (and this is clear to me) that causes some people to cause their characters to get over the fear and go hunting magickers, no matter the justifications or rationalizations.

My God, we're in agreement. 

[LoD]

It is OOC motivation (and this is clear to me) that causes some people to cause their characters to get over the fear and go hunting magickers, no matter the justifications or rationalizations.

I don't want this to degrade into is a contest between players who enjoy magickers and players who enjoy mundanes going back and forth trying to make a claim that their role-play and reasoning is obviously the correct one.  And perhaps the following statement will better highlight the avenue of thought that I'm pursuing.

I don't believe that the status quo projected by the documentation and expected by the playerbase can honestly be met under the current system.

The expectation of many is for all three parties (mundanes, magickers, and the documentation) to hold true to their respective parts of the bargain.  Mundanes would genuinely be fearful and hateful of powerful magicks should they rear their ugly head in their normally non-magickal world.  Magickers would be careful and fearful of discovery, struggling internally with their "gifts" and trying to determine what kind of lives they would have where social interaction is almost prohibitive.  And the game world would more properly meter out magickal roles to help sustain a feeling of "rarity" and "mystery" about magick.

However, none of these three things seems to ever hold up on its promise.

Magickers complain that mundanes are out there hunting them with OOC motivations.  Mundanes complain that there are too many magickers and that they stay in solitude only to OOCly "power up" enough to handle most mundane encounters.  And the documentation says that magick is rare and mysterious, but that is far from the truth due to many of the changes that have been discussed to death in other threads.

I believe the entire system has been flawed for many years, and that the entire setup is contradictory.  Appropriate displays of fear, mistrust, and hatred toward magickers are often met with accusations of intolerance or punishment from authority figures.  The expectation of mundanes to always treat magickers with same levels of naked fear and hostility is inherently flawed, but even if it weren't -- that setup is a horrible model to use when so many people enjoy the current magicker model.

For example, if you consider a blank canvas as the potential for interaction between a mundane and a magicker with dark colors representing loathing and hatred and bright colors representing tolerance and friendship, we aren't providing players with a blank canvas or a full range of colors with which to paint.

It seem as if the system is designed for players to start with a canvas painted black and the pallet they're given to detail the canvas with their life experiences containing only dark colors.  If you request a bright color, or attempt to start with a fresh canvas -- you're somehow working against the spirit of the documentation or doing something out of OOC motivations.  And that's a terrible shame.

It's also hugely unfair to the magicker characters to be forced into these narrow roles where they have to constantly fight against this artificial hatred and fear when many of them clearly want to be productive members of a team, a society, or a family.  I don't know why we can't support a system that wants the entire spectrum of interaction between these two elements represented by plausible, not just possible, strokes.

It's not worthwhile to belabor this topic for Arm 1, because I think too much would have to change in order for the expectations to be more realistic.  However, it's good discussion to have toward how to handle such discussions in the future.  As such, I'll leave my points as they are and intend for this discussion not to be about who is right, but a statement detailing the elements I feel could be improved in the next iteration.

-LoD

[jhunter]

I can agree with alot of what you've stated in the last few posts LoD. I also agree with Spawnloser as well. The problem is that "rare and mysterious" are relative things and gemmers in particular change things up for those playing in Allanak in comparision to those playing in other locations. Players -are- attempting to take the documentation regarding magick as "black and white" when it never has been nor will ever be the way the game is designed. The way I see it, those are a general outline, not a blanket rule for the gameworld as a whole.
Plenty of things work excellent in the "grey area" and that makes things more realistic, IMO. The problem is that players often misinterpret the documentation and try to make things "black and white" instead of taking into account the differences in cultures throughout the gameworld.
It can and does work just fine the way it's designed (and for lack of a better way to put it) provided players take off the blinders and stop trying to make things strictly black and white.

[number13]

Players have an OOC perception that things have changed, and they do. But ICly, things aren't any different in regards to magickers.

If we can't use IC events to gauge what is happening ICly, then what can we use?

If there's hordes of gemmed PCs infesting the Gaj, then there's hordes of gemmers infesting the Gaj. There's no alternative explanation.

[Eloran]

If we can't use IC events to gauge what is happening ICly, then what can we use?

If there's hordes of gemmed PCs infesting the Gaj, then there's hordes of gemmers infesting the Gaj. There's no alternative explanation.

You're basing perceptions off of player characters, as opposed to the virtual population.

Second, there are not "hordes" of gemmed infesting the Gaj. It's obvious by your choice of words that you harbor OOC distaste for mages.

[jhunter]

Exactly. Because there are more pc mages there it doesn't negate the -fact- that virtually there are likely a few gemmers there all the time. Nothing ICly has changed.
Because the staff opens up halflings for pcs does not mean that there are suddenly more halflings. Or that when a noble house is closed for play that is ceases ICly to exist. Or any tribal clan or city clan for that matter. Unless IC events have them being destroyed or wiped out, the are -always- there virtually.

[jhunter]

From the documentation:

Virtual Non-Player Characters [VNPCs]


Zalanthas is a world full of people beyond those that are represented by the player characters (PCs) and non-player characters (NPCs) that you see in the game. There are thousands of other lives that go on behind the scenes. Sometimes the game will utilize those (such as virtual witness to crimes). Be aware that even though you don't see any NPCs around, if the room description specifies people being around, their likely are virtual eyes watching you.

Feel free to casually interact with VNPCs, but do be careful to not 'power emote' them, or use them to coded benefit of your character. They are to be considered passive entities, who help to provide flavor and realism for the game.
See Also:

NPCs, PCs

[Pale Horse]

Where is that post where someone was mentioning their bigoted Uncle/Father/Cousin?  Where he was raised to loath african-americans, then was forced into working with one and came to the point where he even invited the guy over to his house, only to say after he'd left: I guess there's one good nigger out of the bunch? (I apologize if I've offended anyone).

In the end, the guy was able to get over his innate prejudice for one member of a hated minority, to the degree that he worked with, interacted and even socialized a bit with him.  But did he truly get over all of it?  Maybe he still thought of him as less intelligent, less capable..or maybe he found him to have a superior capability then himself but were this the case, and this has been my experience when probing the thoughts behind prejudice, then he would never view him as a real person.  Real is white.  This intelligent, capable, able black is an interesting, valuable, likable creature.  Outwardly, you may show friendship, liking and even care for this fascinating black, but deep down in your thoughts and the places where we do all of our subconscious thinking, he/she is still less than you are.

I feel this is the same way with Magickers in Allanak (we already know about Tuluk, and the individual tribes have their own cultural view of Magickers in their respective documentation).  A large majority would sooner have nothing to do with a Magicker, would segregate them out, assign restrictions on them, etc.  There is the minority that through their dealings with them, might come to display the above mentioned sentiments.  There are even those who would possess the open-mindedness or lack of bias enough that they might *gasp* actually like a magicker as a person!.  Maybe enough to *shudder* even form a close friendship/intimate relationship.

In the end, I would say that my views on the state of Magicker prejudice in Allanak equate to the level of prejudice leveled against African-Americans during the years of Segregation in the United States.

[RogueGunslinger]

That sounds like a DesertChoad or WP story to me.

[Thunkkin]

I think it would help if there were more superstitions in general.

I think it would help if the superstitions about magickers were more clearly defined.

As it is, most of Zalanthan culture is actually very, very pragmatic and reasonable.  There are a few cultural exceptions, such as city elves that can't run but won't ride.  Magickers fall into the same category.  In a harsh world in which survival is the number one priority and everyone seems to react to power in a fairly canny and pragmatic fashion ... wildly unreasonable beliefs should have some "meat" to them. 

When you're dying of thirst - you will drink anything.  Anything.  Yet some tribal groups barely hanging on to existence shun water mages and believe that water mages will make their toes swell to the size of kanks or something.  Ok.  That's fine.  But if you expect players to have their characters act in unreasonable, unpragmatic ways - then fleshing that behaviour out beyond "you're scared of them and stupid enough to believe anything about them" might go a long way in giving people guidelines. 

Let me be clear.  I'm -not- arguing that people should accept magickers.  I'm -not- arguing that beliefs that are not pragmatic are not realistic.  I -am- arguing that giving players more depth to their fears would make those fears easier to play.

I suppose I'm just echoing LoD ... instructing players "Be really, really scared! Magickers could do anything! Need I say more?!" doesn't result in particularly colorful or satisfying long-term play.  On the other hand, I think, a clear list of "it is commonly believed that magickers do X, X, and X and the majority of the population would be convinced that magickers do X" would give all of us mundanes a better foundation for our responses to magickers (and I'm lumping 'gemmed' into the magicker category for the sake of this post).

[Malken]

Maybe IF something bad could happen to your PC if you drank water from a water cleric, even if it's a 1% chance, then that would certainly help.

You could add a whole bunch of 'side-effects' that would go with drinking/eating/using anything made or cast on you by a magicker.

[Pale Horse]

Thinking about it some more, I've come to a justification of the "It's a MAGICKER! OMG hate hate hate!" extreme supported by the documentation (if that's really true).

A long time ago, magick destroyed the world.  Hate it.

Time heals all wounds (except the desert).  Hate lessens.  Tribes relay on a few powerful magicker members of their own to survive, or raid from others and eschew magick.

City-states arise under the power of what?  A sorcerer and a warrior/psionicist.  Theyz gots the power, baby. 

How do they keep that power?  Eliminate competition.

Allanak/Tek: My subjects, magickers are baby-eating, demon-born, water wasters that should be reviled and kept in their place.  I, your mighty God-King, will keep you safe from them, so long as you obey and fear me.  To all you magickers, you are hated and cast out, hunted and slain.  Come to me, serve me, and my shadow will extend over you as well.

Tuluk/Muk: All are welcome to bask in my Radience..Oh..shit..Who let the Elementals out?  Scratch that idea.  New plan: All are welcome to bask in my Radience..except magickers.  They're foul, disgusting abominations of nature and you all do the world, and more importantly Myself, a favor by killing them on sight.  My Faithful and Chosen shall guide and protect you.

In a world where Might=Right, those with the Might know that the biggest threat to their power over those without it, are others like themselves.  The Kings of each city-state, imo, are probably the biggest instigators of the continuation of magicker-hate, to keep the competition in check.  On the same vein, if they can attract and control sources of lesser Might, they themselves are made the more powerful.  Tek does it through the Gemmed (Sorcerer relaying on what he knows best:magick) and stomping them into submission or eliminating the sources of greatest threat (Steinal and it's Vivaduan/Sorcerer King).  Muk (warrior/mindbender) does it through what he knows best (hence the Jihaens and Lirathans) since keeping the magickers around didn't prove to be such a great idea.

[SMuz]

Maybe IF something bad could happen to your PC if you drank water from a water cleric, even if it's a 1% chance, then that would certainly help.

You could add a whole bunch of 'side-effects' that would go with drinking/eating/using anything made or cast on you by a magicker.

Drinking lots of magick water may or may result in karma burn. Do so at your own risk.

[Semper]

Maybe IF something bad could happen to your PC if you drank water from a water cleric, even if it's a 1% chance, then that would certainly help.

You could add a whole bunch of 'side-effects' that would go with drinking/eating/using anything made or cast on you by a magicker.

Even if you as a player know there are no side effects, your character doesn't. Sadly, this isn't often the case IG.

I say, there just needs to be some uprising of magickers or something like a magickal atomic bomb that directly effects the game world, and thus the characters and players. I think it's been too long since people as a whole have had a need to fear magick.

Same with Tuluk/Allanak hatred... But that's going on a different tangent.

[Malken]

Maybe IF something bad could happen to your PC if you drank water from a water cleric, even if it's a 1% chance, then that would certainly help.

You could add a whole bunch of 'side-effects' that would go with drinking/eating/using anything made or cast on you by a magicker.

Even if you as a player know there are no side effects, your character doesn't. Sadly, this isn't often the case IG.

First of all, my character never hear those stories, people always say, you were raised with a fear of magickers because you heard stories, well, what are the stories? I certainly never hear them in game. If all you ever hear are stories being passed from generation to generation and nothing really seems to be happening, then you would think that those stories would start getting diluted and someone, desperate as he may be, would start testing out said stories, then after a while, maybe people would start wising up and realizing that it's not as bad as you might think..

I don't know, I guess I just agree with LoD, as much as you might shove the few lines of documentations that tell me that I should be afraid of magickers, and that I should believe the stories that I never hear about in game, and that I should just really fear.. Oh, meh, I've been doing this for 10+ years now, same conversation, same topic, nothing changes.. People are certainly not going to change now if they haven't 10 years ago.

Going in circle for a year might be fun, going in circle for a whole 10 years starts getting old. I'm tired. Play your magicker as you see fit. I hate to say it, but players are not going to change, if a change is to occur, Staff has to make it happen this time.

The good ol' "Be the change you want to see" is not going to work, when it comes to magick. Nope. Sorry.

[RogueGunslinger]

Heh. Malken, I agree.

[number13]

It's obvious by your choice of words that you harbor OOC distaste for mages.

Well, yeah.

For the record, I don't have a problem with subtle hedge 'wizards' or the *rare* insanely powerful magicker.  It's the middle of the road buff-bots mingling with mundane plotlines that break immersion for me.  Whenever they appear en masse, I start to think of the game as a spreadsheet.

[NoteworthyFellow]

It's obvious by your choice of words that you harbor OOC distaste for mages.

Well, yeah.

For the record, I don't have a problem with subtle hedge 'wizards' or the *rare* insanely powerful magicker.  It's the middle of the road buff-bots mingling with mundane plotlines that break immersion for me.  Whenever they appear en masse, I start to think of the game as a spreadsheet.

I never understood this.  To me, "low fantasy" means there's a lack of good and evil, a lack of idealization, but not a lack of magick.  Okay, so I never saw magick back when I played in 2001, but when I came back in 2007, the prevalence of magick, even before I could play a mage, never bothered me once.  I like magick, and I like Arm's take on magick.  I guess I can understand preferring the mundane side of things, but the existence/presence of magick has never once broken my "immersion."

[Eloran]

It's the middle of the road buff-bots mingling with mundane plotlines that break immersion for me.

The presence of mages breaks your immersion? I think we've found the problem. 

For the record: Having separate plot lines for mages/mundanes splits the playerbase and is stupid. If you don't want to play around mages, go play a mud that doesn't have magick.

EDIT: Granted, separate plots have their place, but in regards to world-changing plots, I prefer story lines that can let mages/mundanes either work together or against each other, as opposed to parallel plots that differentiate in the type of guilds involved in either.

[number13]

The presence of mages breaks your immersion?

No. The presence of buff-bots breaks my immersion.  If magick=mundane by virtue of it's commonality then it's not really magick to me.

I like the fantasy elements in Arm, I seek them out. The gemmed and other common elementalists cheapen it for me by making the fantastic less than awesome.

[Jenred]

Every time this subject comes up, which its now on its like 100th iteration, I feel it necessary to point out the helpfiles which state that magickers are employed by all varieties of people for different things. Traveling parties, etc. And that almost all of them can find employment. Implying that they ARE hired regularly, and then subsequently some kind of tolerance would build up over the ages.

I feel that it is necessary to make the distinction between rational fear - fear that is based on actual events that have happened, and unrational fear, fear that has no basis because there are no supportive events.

Currently based on the history most people know and would be considered common knowledge, in Allanak, magickers are bad, yes, but not the end of the world. The gems they wear are supposed to reassure the populace that A: they are under the control of the Highlord, and B: they have surrendered themselves to the Highlord. Making their risk very low.

Ungemmed magickers, rogue magickers, Defilers, etc, on the other hand are the ones that historically have been the problem. With a wanton disregard for normalcy they have caused all kinds of problems over the history of the world.

So it would be safe to assume that the magickers you see around are nothing more then distasteful elements (no pun intended) of society that you and everyone else has been dealing with as long as Allanak has been around. The quarter has always been there (as far as you can remember), and it won't be leaving anytime soon.

Magickers are employed by the templarate, the army, and at least one noble house. They are mysterious, and different, so you distrust/dislike them. They are not the equivalent to Mindbenders or Defilers.

It is up to individual players to decide, based on their characters history/experience, what level of distrust/disdain they will approach magickers with. And while there are situations in which they'd be accepted, players that accept them should (imo) never become actively involved in making others accept them. And characters that display a like towards magickers should be viewed with equal distrust.

Outright hatred in the South, should be another rare commodity based on character experience. And the exception other then the rule.

In Tuluk, magickers of any and all variety are bad, and I think there is little to no problem here because of their general anonymity.

[Jenred]

The presence of mages breaks your immersion?

No. The presence of buff-bots breaks my immersion.  If magick=mundane by virtue of it's commonality then it's not really magick to me.

I like the fantasy elements in Arm, I seek them out. The gemmed and other common elementalists cheapen it for me by making the fantastic less than awesome.

Magick in Allanak is not fantastic, it is not rare, and it is not uncommon.  Magickers can be portrayed as any other character, as a normal person with an ailment, or perhaps more.

The problem is people creating an expectation of what magick should be, and then getting upset when their image is ruined.