City-elf problems and possible solutions

[Dalmeth]

I like niche roles.  I hope there are more like city-elves.  If you don't like city elves, play a desert elf.

[PurifiedDrinkingWater]

If city-elves aren't broken, then why are they so under-represented in the PC population?

Lack of coded tribes (which has changed of late).  Take a ride up to Tuluk and you will see plenty of c-elves running around.

And their stats don't suck, their stats suck for someone who wants to play WTFpwning combative PCs.
Their stats are great for the following 0 karma guilds.
   Warrior
   Assassin     
   Burglar    
   Merchant    
   Pickpocket    
   Ranger (iffy)   

City-elves can't be rangers.

[IAmJacksOpinion]

All that being said, I think it's doubtful that we're going to see any major changes to city elves as a race in Arm 1. However, I hope the folks working on Arm 2 take racial stat differences into account when they're developing the game's item database.

More elven items kicking around the city for C-elves, you say? Well, that's what I heard. You have to go to a desert outpost to find any elven items, as it stands, some weapons and armor aside. Desert elves seem to have a flair, and a little bit of EQ designed more for them (because of the materials, and availability). C-elves should have this same feel to them. Just like when I play a d-elf I say "I'm a d-elf. I ain't wearing travellers boots, I'm gonna find me some moccassins instead!" my C-elf should have this same dress code, I thinks.  It could be as simple as making a up a word and putting "designed to be thin and long in the desc."

A white jooka-pooka

This shirt is stitched long, and thin, and has a butt ton of pockets for hiding other people's shit in.

IDK.

I think the coded clans in the rinth are cool.  I would love to see the place actually segregated.  If you're a human,  you shouldn't be walking into elftribex's territory, and if you do, you should expect to get pwned.

IDK about the rest of you, but when I play a rinthi human, and I spot an elf on my side I fuck with him. Same goes with when I'm an elf, and I spot a human.  God, you're all making me want to play a rinth elf now. 

[ibusoe]

IDK about the rest of you, but when I play a rinthi human, and I spot an elf on my side I fuck with him. Same goes with when I'm an elf, and I spot a human.  God, you're all making me want to play a rinth elf now. 

That's a Human bias carrying over to when you plays elves.

Humans have racial loyalty.  If a tiger attacks a human, most nearby humans will defend the human out of instinct.

Elves have tribal loyalty.  If a tiger attacks an elf, most nearby elves will defend the elf if the elf is a member of their own tribe.

Racism is a human emotion.  Most humans dislike nearly all elves.

Extra-tribal xenophobia is an elven emotion.  Most elves hate humans who are outside their tribe no-more/no-less than they hate elves who are outside their tribe. 

If anything, if an elf is forced to choose a short-term ally outside of their tribe, they would prefer a human over an elf.

Elves are paranoid, xenophobic and arrogant but they are not stupid.  In terms of tactics, a human can be a valuable short-term ally for an elf because they are physically strong, (comparatively) naive, and less vindictive.

By contrast, elves can never trust elves outside of their tribe even for an hour, because they know with 100% certainty that other elves are (with 100% reliability) merely waiting for a good opportunity.  Outside of their tribe, an elf will never be the friend of another elf.  One always dominates the other, except for the unlikely event of a Mexican standoff.  If an elf is voluntarily speaking  with another elf, one of the elves is probably either really bored or really desperate.


Let me try to re-explain it this way. 

A human will live in a human neighborhood because he likes it there.  Crime is lower than in an elven neighborhood.

An elf will live in an elven neighborhood because he is not allowed to live in the human neighborhood.  An elf would prefer to live somewhere where they are protected from crime, yet are surrounded by gullible, rich targets.


I'll try again to explain it:

Humans see elves as shifty, lazy and dishonest.

Elves see humans as fat and gullible.  Basically, elves see humans the way that humans see half-giants.


Another illustration:

When out in public, a human will check their wallet twice an hour to make sure that it hasn't been lifted.  An elf will check their wallet ninety times an hour to make sure that is hasn't been lifted. 

A human check's their wallet by touching it (in their pocket or their purse) with their hand, reassuring themself that it's there.  An elf can tell by the pressure of their wallet against their skin -- touching it their hand would be vulgar and superfluous, probably giving something away.

When an elf and a human are introduce to each other, an hour later the human will likely remember the elf's name, his town of origin and his stated occupation.  The elf will remember the human's name, his town of origin, his stated occupation, the number of freckles on the human's neck, the amount of pressure in the human's handshake and perhaps most importantly where on his person the human keeps his wallet.

Edited to add:

Humans view money, power, education and beauty as a sign of status.  For an elf to have status he needs to demonstrate the ability to take other people's wallets.

To insult a human, you make fun of his heritage or you insult his mother.  You call him a round ear.  This makes him mad.
An elf has their heritage, appearance and lineage insulted all the time, usually by humans.  They don't care, they can laugh at this.  If you want to make an elf mad you steal their wallet.  Then you're a dead man.

First thing after work, a human is thinking of grabbing a bath, grabbing dinner, grabbing a meal.  First thing after work, an elf is thinking of grabbing your wallet.  An elf is either asleep, drunk or plotting to steal something.

In the conflicts between human communities and elven tribes, humans think that they are winning.  Humans control more land, have greater numbers and sharper weapons.  In short, humans have all the things that they think are important. 
In the conflicts between human communities and elven tribes, the elves think they they are winning.  They've stolen your wallet.  Your wallet, motherfucker.  Elves control the things that they think are important.

Edited again:

Jack has a rather good retort below.  I don't think anyone really thinks I was attempting to single him out or jump down his throat.  It just seemed the appropriate time to voice a few opinions I've held for a while.  Oh, and I meant nothing bad about your role-play.  We're currently in the same clan and I'm a huge fan of your character.

[IAmJacksOpinion]

Yeah....

But also.

It's the rinth.

*score*

If he's attacking at random, he could be attacking ANYONE. (My tribe included.) Those looking for blood find it. Those looking for boots, find them too. Usually on the corpses of those looking for blood.

Really, I doubt it's bad RP to give a human a healthy dose of fear about walking into an area controlled, patrolled, and propriatised soley by elves. Tribal blah blah or not. But that falls on the character, not the mentality of the race as a whole.

[ibusoe]

Well, this thread was supposed to be about city-elf problems and solutions.

I've always kind of liked playing city-elves.  Most of the time that I got kudos from staff or props from my fellow players, it was from playing a city-elf.  I don't think that I have any characters that other players will remember, except for a couple of city-elves.  

That being said, I would be extremely fucking hesitant to play another city-elf, for a few reasons.

When I have played city-elves, I have played them very street and that tends to drive them into a sort of pattern.

I can't buff up their combat abilities.  There are few opportunities to practice killing things inside the city.  Their combat abilities start off being good without being terrific, and never improve much from there.

I can't get involved in formal game clans.  There are a few exceptions to this, however as a general rule most clan leaders would have to be daft to hire me and my role-playing would have to be questionable for me to accept a job, unless it were as pretext for some kind of heist.  In the long run, a clan is no place for an elf.

There's no place for me to hang out.  Any of the places that I PCs congregate are effectively off limit because the stronger role-players will (for obvious reason) have little to do with me.  Any attention shown to me by other PCs is usually aggression that exceeds the scope of what would be reasonable for racism, instead illustrating boredom on the part of the player.  Heaven-forbid a player voluntarily lower their character's guard so that I can do a bit of stealing, providing mutual amusement.  Out of the question.

My coded skills/stats/abilities are, as other player have complained, unreasonably low.  I can't steal at the level that a ninja master would, which is precisely how good you would be at the age of twenty-five if you've been doing it since you were five.  

So basically there is nothing to do.  And staff tend to frown upon urban-criminal types anyway and are biased towards law+order types (although I still love the staff).

[Eloran]

And staff tend to frown upon urban-criminal types anyway and are biased towards law+order types (although I still love the staff).

orly?

[hyzhenhok]

Non-'rinthi/warrens, city-based criminals are hard to play. There are a limited number of PCs you can interact with, a limited number of places you can go, and a limited number of things to do in general. This kind of role takes a lot of patience, dedication and restraint to pull off. City elves tend to be limited to this kind of difficult role by both IC prejudice and by what is IC for an elf's behavior. I think the problem isn't with city-elves themselves. Most likely, it's that city-based criminals tend to get bored. Compounding the problem is that a lot of sneaky-types will try to twink up their skills before trying to get involved in plots...

...This is probably where the above supposed Immortal prejudice comes from. It's far more tempting and far easier for a criminal-type to twink out than for law-and-order types. I think we've all seen evidence of this twinking, which unfortunately is an abuse of the semi-new crimcode. I get ticked off when my character walks down a road at a certain time of IC day and sees an NPC corpse there, repeatedly over the course of several IC days/weeks. I'm sure the Imms get ticked off too.

[RogueGunslinger]

So basically there is nothing to do.  And staff tend to frown upon urban-criminal types anyway and are biased towards law+order types (although I still love the staff).

From this alone it's clear that you have no idea what you're talking about.

[BlackMagic0]

So basically there is nothing to do.  And staff tend to frown upon urban-criminal types anyway and are biased towards law+order types (although I still love the staff).

From this alone it's clear that you have no idea what you're talking about.

That is not any where close to the truth. Agree with RGS here.

[SMuz]

I rather liked every other sentence ibusoe wrote. Don't discredit him for just that one sentence.

[IAmJacksOpinion]

Tagging in on the bandwagon to agree with RGS.

Also,

Any of the places that I PCs congregate are effectively off limit because the stronger role-players will (for obvious reason) have little to do with me.

Disagree here. It seems to me that strong roleplayers are more likely to factor the massive elven populace of cities (30+ % comes to mind, but don't quote me. That might be Dark Sun (not trying to open another arguement there)), and realize the potential benefits of not acting like this elf sitting in the bar is somehow worse than the one he bought his boots from in the bazaar without a second thought given. Who hates and harasses elves? Bynners! Who commonly sees the value of, and employs elves under the table?  - NOBLES! Or criminals, but where do you draw the line there?  hehe.

Weak roleplayers jump on the bandwagon. Strong RPers think for themselves. Not saying that it's bad RP to hate elves, I'm just speaking on the whole. Unfortunately, all too often I'm the former and not the latter.

Possible Solution? Elf awareness month?

I don't see low strength as being a monumental handicap. I think the thing that would help out elves the most would be something for them to do besides steal, try unsuccessfully to sell, and possibly join the Byn. As I've mentioned before, more active coded city tribes. (There's one in Tuluk, but where's the love in Allanak? Huh?) And not just in the rinth - even though those ones are never active anyways. I think the biggest problem with elves is that we don't see any and who can blame players? As things now stand you're essentially picking a role where you'll log in and no one will speak to you except the 1 or 2 newbs who occassionally poke around, but even then you can't really do too much with them, because you can't trust them half as far as you can throw their skinny asses, and will not trust them  that far for at least 2 RL months! Essentially, as the city elf stands, it's a race for unemployable loners.

[BlackMagic0]

I rather liked every other sentence ibusoe wrote. Don't discredit him for just that one sentence.

Some the things wrote out was worth wild. I just completely disagree with that one sentence is all.
I love city elves, and have played quite a few rinthi-or-not. My second favorite race next to desert elf.

[RogueGunslinger]

I rather liked every other sentence ibusoe wrote. Don't discredit him for just that one sentence.

Some the things wrote out was worth wild. I just completely disagree with that one sentence is all.
I love city elves, and have played quite a few rinthi-or-not. My second favorite race next to desert elf.

Lol, so true they aren't the same race.

[jcljules]

...
Rinthi city elf tribes at this time are closed, and will likely remain so for good reason.  We do highly endorse the use of vtribes to help flesh out the world, however.  Vtribes, both c-and-d-elf have been long used to improve the atmosphere of the game.
...

I was under the impression that you couldn't create d-elf v-tribes--has that changed?

Sorry, this was a mis-statement by myself.  There are v-tribes in place which can be used, for example, Sand Jakhals and Seven Spears.  You can not, however, make up "Delerak's Elf Tribe Of Uber Doom" which hates all templars, goes into a blood rage at the sight of silk, and worships the void, fire, and wind.  

This restriction is in place to prevent a sudden cropping of 200 desert elf vtribes which leave the built and steady real tribes empty of membership because people have a concept that just slightly doesn't fit.

...so it -is- possible to play in existing v-tribes? Such as the Seven Spears or Sand Jakhals?

[Shalooonsh]

...
Rinthi city elf tribes at this time are closed, and will likely remain so for good reason.  We do highly endorse the use of vtribes to help flesh out the world, however.  Vtribes, both c-and-d-elf have been long used to improve the atmosphere of the game.
...

I was under the impression that you couldn't create d-elf v-tribes--has that changed?

Sorry, this was a mis-statement by myself.  There are v-tribes in place which can be used, for example, Sand Jakhals and Seven Spears.  You can not, however, make up "Delerak's Elf Tribe Of Uber Doom" which hates all templars, goes into a blood rage at the sight of silk, and worships the void, fire, and wind. 

This restriction is in place to prevent a sudden cropping of 200 desert elf vtribes which leave the built and steady real tribes empty of membership because people have a concept that just slightly doesn't fit.

...so it -is- possible to play in existing v-tribes? Such as the Seven Spears or Sand Jakhals?

If you notify and clear it with desert elf staff first, yes, it would be fine.  If not, then no.

[spicemustflow]

What about uncoded city tribes?

[Eloran]

If you notify and clear it with desert elf staff first, yes, it would be fine.  If not, then no.

[jcljules]

Wow, never knew that! Would it be possible to get the tattoos and some of the distinctive clothing of that tribe, as well? Or are you pretty much on your own if you play from a v-tribe? And can you access the documentation of tribes that have been closed down codedly, but that you would like to play in anyway, without staff support?

[spicemustflow]

If you notify and clear it with desert elf staff first, yes, it would be fine.  If not, then no.

With a little difference that no city tribes are listed as 'okay to use as a background' and... that answers my question nicely.

[Shalooonsh]

Wow, never knew that! Would it be possible to get the tattoos and some of the distinctive clothing of that tribe, as well?

If they exist, this is something to clear with the desert elf staff.  If they do not exist, no.

Or are you pretty much on your own if you play from a v-tribe?

Yes.  Absolutely.

And can you access the documentation of tribes that have been closed down codedly, but that you would like to play in anyway, without staff support?

No.

[Eloran]

With a little difference that no city tribes are listed as 'okay to use as a background' and... that answers my question nicely.

You didn't ask that, you asked about "uncoded city tribes."

It's alright to use virtual tribes in your background if you don't choose a coded one. Seeing as how there is only one c.elf tribe currently coded and open, it's only logical to assume every c.elf you see isn't an Akai Sjir. Hence, it's fine and dandy to play a c.elf in a virtual tribe. I make more sense that time?

[ibusoe]

I've left out one of the larger problems of playing a city-elf, but I will mention it here as well as a possible solution. 

Basically, templars are often short on employees (money?) and so they decide it will be a neat idea to conscript any elves lying around to be spies/servants/errand-boys.  It's fine in small doses, but the problem is that all templars do it.  And it's actually fun once in a while, but often times when I make an elf I don't make the elf with the plan,

"Gee, why don't I make someone shifty and dishonest who will make the perfect lackey for some templar"

It happens a lot with guys who have never played a templar before -- they think their behavior is innovative and novel, but they're just doing the same thing all new templars do. 

Really this more than any other factor is what stops me from making an elf character.

[Delstro]

That isn't just a problem with templars and C-elves. They love my pick pockets of every race.

[Bhagharva]

Wow,

It's ridiculously amazing how many people are complaining that elves aren't enough like humans in stats and social standing.

Elven stats rock. Period. I said it. So it's true. All of you who complain otherwise need a lesson in agility and speed. I can harass you. I can make you miserable. I can make you wish you had never entered the fucking rinth, or been born. And that's before I begin to hurt you, leave you for dead.. and most of all..rob you silly.

City elves who are successful tend to stay out of taverns in the commoners quarter unless business dictates. There are exceptions, but honestly the real problem most people seem to have is a lack of direction when playing a Celf. As a former imm and longtime storyteller within the rinth I can attest that there have been several dynamic elves of all concepts that were great elves. When the players have a few others to play with in the rinth things are fine.. soon as things get sparse a vast majority get bored and head southside to hobknob with the socialites. Celf is not a role for everyone. Do not misconstrue and assume that I believe that Celves playing southside are playing badly, it's just that most seem to ignore the fact that the majority  of elves are stinking pieces of rinth filth and people have a GOOD reason to be suspicious of them at ALL times.

Try considering it a challenge having EVERYONE hate you. Remember high school? It's not that hard to visualize if you happen to have been an outcast. (Which I am sssuming some of you were)

Also, racism is real, deal with it. It's like... part of the fun of playing a Celf.

Celves definately DO NOT have any sort of templar-like abilities within the rinth. The clanned elves have the same benifits any other clan has. Clanmembers tend to favor their clanmates over the intruders. Though as long-time players of the rinth know, even that is not always the case. Ever been beaten down by your own clan because you were in the wrong place in the wrong time?

Elves as we know it will not exist in ArmII, I suggest looking at the good things about playing a Celf. Maybe those of you who love playing them will speak up? Or even better, get out there and play one to show the haters what a true piece of scum is.


THEM!