Bowing: A Request

Its been discussed in the past, but could people please stop bowing to nobles/templars the moment they enter the room? It will make the game much more pleasant in certain aspects and realistic if you could refrain from this. The following situation might make things more realistic.

We'll set up a tavern situation.
Picture a large tavern. Maybe a room similar to the maybe well known Cheers bar. Now, your on the far eastern side, the door is on the west. In from that door walks a noble, with one or two guards. Not a large swath cut in front of him. Now imagine the room is filled with maybe 20 or more people. So that it could be described as having a 'roar' of activity, voices, and noises. Packed with tables, people moving, etc.

Now for the part involving the person. In walks the noble and two guards. And immediately you rise from your stool -across- the room, and bow in that same place. Here is an imaginary emote you mightve typed. stand; emote bows to ~noble as he/she rises, then lowers back onto his/her stool.

Now speaking logically, there is little reason to believe the person saw you, so your action wouldve been dismissed anyways. But since it is conveyed in text, people assume that if they can read it they saw it. Which is wrong. Its also wrong to assume that you would even see/hear them enter in a room described as so full and busy, especially when you probably arnt even facing the entrance.

For those who havent taken a good look at the Bard's Barrel, which is the room Im referring to. The main entrance is on the north side. An archway. The bar, sits along the southern wall, with the stool's facing southwards with a wall filled with bottles and foods and things. There is curtain leading into the old-back stage area on one of its sides. Now -MOST- people at a bar sit facing the bar, not with their back to it so they can look across the room. Now in some instances in this room that might happen, the bard playing or something. But for the majority of the time its safe to assume you arnt watching the archway.

-Yet- lo and behold the moment a noble/templar walks in there is someone at the bar who will rise and bow on que.

Now if people fail to see illogical and unsensible notion of this then Im sorry, and hope that you can at least modify your actions to make it more realistic. You dont bow to someone from like twenty feet away, at least approach them or some such.

But for those that do see the annoyance of this join my 'illogical bowing' strike, and save your back's for situations that call for it. Examples:
*You are called before a templar/noble.
*You approach a templar/noble.
*A noble is announced prior to entering the room, you stand and then bow when they enter or whatever. These are usually room halting occurances.
*You are in a relatively small or empty room.
*They are your superior and are in visible range, and appropriate distance for a bow. I.e. Your a Borsail cadet at the bar and in walks a borsail noble you -dont- need to bow. Chances are you didnt even see them. Should they -step into the room- and maybe do some recognition emote in your direction, or you in theirs, then go ahead.

Anyways, feel free to debate away... as Im sure many disagree.

[Anonymous]

As a templar, I can assure you that I only expect you to bow, when I am actually paying attention to you. For the most part I'm not going to notice or care who has or who has not bowed.

On the other hand, if you have pissed me off, if you are going to ask for something, trust me, you do want to bow. Yeah, once you have my attention I'm gonna notice that kind of thing.

On the other hand, once I have your attention, I want your palms to sweat. I want your heart to pound. I want you to pray to Tek for mercy. So, don't think that if I don't bust your balls for not bowing when your back is turned it means I've gone soft.

[Lord Fancypants]

As a noble I certaintly don't expect people to bow to me, except for the times Jenred said. I have noticed an increase in people trying to come up with a sign of respect other then bowing. Now depending on what they do I react accordingly, just thought I'd say be careful on how you show your respect though.

[Sintti]

As a definate non-noble, I am going to bow every time I see one of you. Why?

Because it only takes one time, only one noble to choose to take it as an insult to end my worthless life. Worthless to you, not so to me.

Frankly, I expect you to ignore me. Why is it so hard for you to ignore a bow? Just pretend you didn't see it. Or that it is so typical you don't pay attention to it.

Just this morning, my PC was running an errand and I hit the directional key before I realised that there was a PC Templar on the street. I passed by that Templar without bowing, I fear for my characters life now.

The truth is that I don't trust you. You can say anything here, you may mean it too, but I cannot know that it is you who plays that particular noble who walked in just now.

Our characters mean nothing to you, but we may have spent days or even weeks working on them.  Unless the staff makes it a policy, I will keep bowing.

[Quirk]

Ye gods and ye little fishes; I don't seem able to be able to stop myself playing Devil's Advocate. Ach well, here goes...

I would strongly and definitely agree with Jenred's bowing stance and have indeed been doing exactly that for the last several months of play, failing to bow unless up close to a noble or templar or addressing/being addressed by one. The reason most people bow randomly though is that frequently there are nobles who will ignore the virtual space between you, the noise level of the room and all these other factors, and will pick on you for not bowing. Sometimes even nobles which have been around a while are guilty.

Most people faced with being slightly unrealistic as regards their character's bowing habits or potentially having their character get into trouble at the hands of a mildly twinky noble will opt for the former. It's a more than usually depressing specimen in the gallery of bad RP issues because it's been instituted and upheld by members of the noble class, who, being high-profile, ought to be better than average RPers. It only takes one noble getting ideas above their station to get a goodly portion of a city's PCs to fall into unrealistic bowing to every noble in every circumstance. Thus, to anyone playing a noble or templar out there who does insist on everyone in the room bowing to them, I say, "Congratulations! You personally are forcing the playerbase round you to adopt poor RP habits, and I hope you're proud of yourself."

Once every noble and templar out there treats bowing in a realistic manner, we can work on getting the playerbase to calm their zeal for bowing.

Quirk

[Kauket]

Agreed.

[Bestatte]

It's very problematic when you have 15 PCs in the room (like recently) all having their own conversations..while the bard is singing, the screen's a-scrolling, and all of a sudden some noble walks in...

it makes absolutely positively NO sense whatsoever for people watching the bard's antics to somehow magically sense that there's a noble, who they've never met, who has never met them, walking in BEHIND them - well beyond a HUGE crowd of people so they couldn't even see them anyway.

And yet...

10 of those PCs automatically rise the second they see the word "templar" on their screen... or there's that wave effect when one person *immediately* bows without even emoting that they happened to SEE the person..and the entire building full of PCs follows suit.

It's bad enough the room's got all that screen scroll..

and how about the Bard? How come the bard doesn't stop in the middle of his song to bow to the noble? And why should ANYONE expect a non-NPC to offer a gesture of respect upon entry, when they don't expect it from the NPCs?

I used to bow/curtsy the moment I noticed one. I don't anymore. If my character is in a geographical position to notice the "important person" then yeah I'll notice. If I think my character is passing near the noble in the middle of a *crowded* street filled with travellers and wagons..then yeah I'll bow.

If one addresses me, or I want to address one, absolutely.

But I won't be making such an obvious fuss over someone if it doesn't make sense that my character even realizes they're there yet.

[X-D]

I find that to instabow or to not instabow is a desicion that can be based often on room and your pc's station, If I'm playing an elf or rinthi or a southerner in the north or vice versa, few other things, I'm probly going to instabow, just to be on the safe side, cause as far as that templar is concerned you already have one or more strikes against you, why toss the match in?

Now, if the things stated above do not a apply then take into account size and shape of room, people in room, where and how your char is situated in the room.

I have only been set on for not instabowing one time quite a few chars ago. To make a short story, a bit happened and it all ended with...tell templar (rubbing the back of his head) With all due respect Lord Templar, I did not bow cause I ain't a bender and I ain't got eyes in da back a my head and did na see ya.

Long pause, templar said something else and stalked off.
PC's that I have that are in even higher non-noble/templar positions normaly just dip head/chin politly unless being directly addressed, Nobody has ever given any of them problems for it.

[Marauder Moe]

tell templar (rubbing the back of his head) With all due respect Lord Templar, I did not bow cause I ain't a bender and I ain't got eyes in da back a my head and did na see ya.

   Brilliant!  I wonder if he spent the rest of the day wondering if all those people bowing to him from across the room are sorcerors and mindbenders.  

I do agree that instabowing is kinda silly and I try hard not to do it.  Heck, I usually try not to even look at people entering the room unless I've got a good reason to do so.  Besides, if you do get called out for not bowing that means you get the opportunity to RP with a Noble or Templar a little bit (and if you get throwin in jail or killed it'd be your own mouth at fault).  

[Samoa]

Instabowing is crap, and I haven't done it for about a year now.  I find the typical situation to be, if someone accosts me for not doing it, I state the plain IC facts.

'blah blah, I'm a big important jerkwad. aren't you going to bow to me? that's rude!'

"Well, my apologies, Lord whomever, but it's awfully hard to see a signet ring in the middle of a sandstorm when you're wearing gloves and walking behind me."

'....'

"south"

[Quirk]

 On average most characters I've encountered offer, at best, a "simple" nod to nobles, which to me suggests they are struggling to offer even that much amount of respect.

I've seen these nods, but only on entrance of a noble, not when being addressed or addressing them. And it really ought to be stressed that the PC noble or the Templar of the Blue is *not* a rarity, not the special figure of power  that a Templar of the Black would be. Etiquette demands a bow as a gesture of respect *only* when entering discourse with the noble in question, given that the noble is a noble of the lowest rank. Even the respectful nod across the room is a gesture of respect more than society requires.

There seems to be this horrible stigma players have about the concept of bowing.  "My character never bows", I hear people say all the time.

We must move in very different circles, because I rarely hear this except from the rawest of newbies.

Everyone, from the lowest beggar to a black-robed templar, has someone above him/her that (s)he must respect.

Respect, yes. But the etiquette to show this respect differs markedly depending on who is dealing with whom, and this is the subtlety some players are failing to get. There is no suggestion that it would be necessary for a beggar to bow to a Militia Lieutenant - a respectful tone, copious use of "sir", perhaps a lowered gaze are all that is required. Simply because a Militia Lieutenant and a Templar are both above the beggar on the social scale does not mean that they deserve the same levels of respect. But there are differences between a Templar of the Blue, of the Red and of the Black. For a red-robed templar, it may very well be appropriate for a whole tavern to rise and bow; certainly it would be for a Black robe. But Blues simply do not command such authority, and neither do junior nobles.

I just don't see bowing to nobility the instant they enter a room as horribly unrealistic or problematic.

The big thing that you're overlooking here is that the vast majority of PC nobility simply do not have the station to demand bows from people they have no interest in talking to. Most PCs, when there's a noble near them, will bow anyway out of keenness to appear respectful and not to offend. A noble who arrogates to himself or herself the power to demand bows from every non-noble PC or VNPC in the room ought to ICly run swiftly into trouble from his or her superiors for getting ideas above their station.

Conversely, if a noble or templar *does* address someone and they fail to bow, or someone approaches them without offering due respect, there's a clear lack of respect there that deserves to be dealt with harshly (ICly, that is. Some OOC leeway might be useful for those obviously new to the game).

Too many nobles have run away with the idea that as they're superior to commoners, everyone should fall flat on their face as they enter. (Yeah, I know, hyperbole to make my point). These same players tend to think that as the only PC representative of their House they can, on their own, decide policy for it on a grand scale. These ideas make for bad nobles.

I would suggest that your belief that too many commoners are failing to show respect to the nobility is based on an exaggerated view of what the fairly low-level PC nobility are entitled to demand.

Quirk

[Cenghiz]

Another solution? Another safe solution? Do a little typework. Usually a templar's entrance to Gaj is not a usual event happening at every ten minutes. So it's not too hard to emote your situation if it's not your ldesc.

The short grinning templar arrives from the north.
>emote scratches his head, then goes on examining ~gloves with inclined eyebrows.

You MUST be looking at somewhere or your eyes must be closed. Just emote where you're looking at. Of course bowing is not a hard job. My chars sometimes even bow before the beautiful women they see. Or for the opposite situation, emote how you saw them. For example, see the half-giant guard first then as your gaze passes over the noble, stand and bow.

All nobles and templars I met caused no trouble as I emoted properly. And I killed 17 chars.

Just my two turkish liras.

And as a last thing; go VENOMZ! (He's doing a hard job. It took more than the message to type Venomz)

[aeshyw]

Its been said before but I'll say it again:

If a noble wants everyone to get up and bow to them - have your aide or guard or NPC -announce- your entrance.  A loud, clear announcement by a trained voice should logically be heard over all but the rowdiest crowds (and you don't belong in the Gaj anyway, unless you're a templar).

Doing that serves three purposes. First, it gives ye olde aide something to do, and secondly it relies on sound - which is more reliable then sight when people have their backs turned. And lastly, if the noble wants to emphasize just how far above filthy commoners they are, they can do it without having to bully anyone around.

[RideTheDivide]

Here's another perspective...

I've always figured that when a Templar or Noble of some standing comes into the Inn, a stir might go through the crowd.  Maybe the bartender takes his attention from filling your drink and bows towards the door.  Maybe the people at your table who *are* facing the door quit talking for a moment and their eyes move to the archway.

All I'm saying is that I figured that it didn't take eyes in the back of my head since the atmosphere of the room would reflect their entrance...

~shrugs~

[Moe]

I think another reason people stand up and bow to a templar/noble when they walk in is that THEY themselves want to be noticed by the templar/noble.. in hopes that they can be given something to do, or just for interaction..

Personally I never even acknowledge templars/nobles unless I need something of them, or they come up to me..
-Moe The Schmoe
 :evil:  :twisted:

[krelin]

If the staff wants to establish a roleplay guideline on instabowing, I'll be glad to follow it.  Meantime, I'm going to play it safe and instabow whenever I encounter a noble or templar (including NPC templars, unless I'm in a terrible hurry) and couldn't reasonably explain not noticing them.  I tried NOT instabowing the other day and some nobles "aide" (read: bitch) told me I was in enough trouble already without showing disrespect to their noble.

Feh.

In response to Ride the Divide

I've always figured that when a Templar or Noble of some standing comes into the Inn, a stir might go through the crowd. Maybe the bartender takes his attention from filling your drink and bows towards the door. Maybe the people at your table who *are* facing the door quit talking for a moment and their eyes move to the archway.

I could see that happening with a Senior Noble (Which I havent seen on in the Barrel forever), a red or black robe (same situation) or some other person needing such a room-shattering prescense. But when it occurs for so and so low-noble, or run of the mill blue robe, people would be pissed off I think stopping and having the whole room cease to offer a bow to these people.

Anyways...

[crymerci]

I don't think bowing to nobility is a problem, I think not bowing to nobility is.  I agree that perhaps it is somewhat unrealistic to bow to every single noble who walks into the room (though I apologise for saying this, I think making a post over the whole affair to be rather petty).

I think it's valid to bring up a point of roleplay that's in contention and put it up for discussion. Otherwise those who bow will forever be shaking their heads over those who dont, and vice versa, and neither side will ever hear where the other is coming from.

However, I find more players stubbornly cling to American ideals than not, and the end result being that a large portion of players absolutely refuse to respect the fact that nobles are indeed above commoners.  I've seen Allanaki commoner PCs blatantly disrespect and even ignore nobles, and the only reason they get away with this is because though -- technically -- a noble could kill a commoner without question, the code does not support this fact, nor should nobles have to go killing commoners.  

Hmm. I think disrespect is disrespect, and often gets punished, regardless (though you may not witness the punishment). Ignoring a noble may well be a valid roleplay choice, if one is ignoring a noble because of the noise/activity of the crowd or whatnot. If the noble did not take notice od what you consider the faux pas, then you should not worry yourself over it. If they noticed it, they have many more options for dealing with it besides the 'kill' command.

On average most characters I've encountered offer, at best, a "simple" nod to nobles, which to me suggests they are struggling to offer even that much amount of respect.

Wow. Where are you playing? I've never seen that. Well, sometimes with merchant house family members, but then, they're kinda uppity anyhow.  :wink:

Rather than worry about when it's OK to bow, or whether there are too many virtual characters in the room on that day, blocking sight from said noble... and so on and so on... I'd much rather see people bowing or otherwise showing respect to nobles too much than not enough, because as it is, right now, it's hardly too much.  There seems to be this horrible stigma players have about the concept of bowing.  "My character never bows", I hear people say all the time.  What's so hard about bowing?  Everyone, from the lowest beggar to a black-robed templar, has someone above him/her that (s)he must respect.

I just don't see bowing to nobility the instant they enter a room as horribly unrealistic or problematic.

Well...I agree with Jenred's original post, but I see some of your points. I've had a character deliberately show outward disrespect to a noble before, but that's generally something I reserve for my character's thoughts. I'm still kinda shocked at the kind of behavior you describe, though. I mean, if you acknowledge a noble/templar at all, a mere nod is not enough. Do you think these people were newbies? Does this happen regularly? I'm interested in hearing more.

[Mr. Noble]

Personally I find instabowing annoying myself at times and I play a noble.

However, it is not always out of the question as was mentioned above. Its your choice as a player to decide.

Did your PC notice said templar/nobles arrival?
Did they see someone else bow so just bowed to be safe?
Did they notice the templar/noble and just decide not to bow?
Are they trying to notice the arrival of such people?
Did they hear someone say, "Hi Lord Fancybooty"?
Did they recognize the voice of the Templar/Noble or their guards/aides?


Anyway, I'm sure you get the idea. Decide for yourself, dont let anyone call you a twink because you do happon to notice templars/nobles a lot, maybe you have a IC reason to pay extra attention.

As said many times before, we dont know your reasons so we should not judge. We are not the RP police and those that think they are often appear worse then the people they are complaining about.

[creeper386]

Hmm... I personally hate insta-bowing, specially when it forces me to constantly bow, even though most the time I still don't and most noble/templars don't have a problem with it.

And it isn't because I'm placing my "American Standards" into Armageddon or some other bull shit. It's because it's lame to bow all the time just to make sure you cover your characters back in. If you have IC reasons to be watching out for templars and stuff, also you should probably be by an entrance and not do it on the other side of the room and such, but thats just a personal preference. The reason why I don't bow often, is because most the time my characters wouldn't notice/aren't paying attention, or even if they do notice the templar, wouldn't want to single themselves outside of the group, and I think thats how most the citizens would think. Stay in the group as a whole and don't get noticed. If your being addressed or addressing or being noticed by the noble/templar is some way, yes then bow. OOCily it bothers me sometimes, but I try to not let it get to me because it's someone elses character and not mine.

I don't know. Oh well.

Creeper

[Kalden]

Imagine, the young Noble strolls into the Bard's Barrel with his bodyguards, and one man notices, stands and bows to Noble. A dead silence falls over the room as the others all at once shift their gazes over to the noble and begin rising to their feet and bowing low, avoiding eye contact, and pretty soon everyone is bowing and attention of the room is completely on the noble. That's basically what happens when all ten or so PCs plus the VNPCs are bowing to the noble. Is that a realistic scenario? To me, that seems like the response a black-robed Templar would get, but not a minor noble.

How about if a blue-robed Templar came into the inn? How about if a blue-robed Templar strolled down the street watchfully? Would the mingling crowds each stop to bow to him as they near him, or would they just nod deeply and respectfully and go on their business? I'd prefer it if they just nodded, and didn't have to each stop to "pay their respects" to each Templar that happened to be patrolling the street. After all, the coded Templar are pretty common, so it makes you think that the virtual Templar would be very common in their patrols.

[gfair]

I can see everyone bowing upon entry by a Templar in the south as being perfectly acceptable - since the Templars in Nak are much worse than those in Tuluk, if all accounts are accurate, then one would know a Templar stepped into a tavern by the audible gasp/silence/sound of chairs being pushed out as numerous people stand to bow.  That, in no short amount of time, would quickly be the noise associated with Templars, and people would, on knee-jerk reaction, get up from their tables, or hop off the barstools.

Tables - the sound of wood scraping on wood, the typical sound of chairs being pushed back by the back legs as you rise from your seat.

Bars - the sound of feet tapping the ground, perhaps a slight scraping of wood, and occasionally the sound of a barstool being knocked over by someone who wasn't in full control, or made an enthusiastic leap off the stool.


And in that context, the Templar would know if everyone was bowing or not, because if you were not you would be the only one not at half-mast, so to speak.  The bartender would either be invisible behind the bar, or she/he would have come out of the bar to bow and be seen.

I think in the South this is perfectly legitimate.

[Fedaykin]

I'd have to agree with gfair on this one.

The templars have the power to end your lives if they want.  Sure, that templar may not notice if you did or didn't bow the majority of the time, but maybe today their undergarment is pulled too far up their crack or their robe is irriatting them.  Do you really want to risk being the one they take their irritation out on by not showing the proper deference?

Does everyone getting up and bowing at the same time seem a little ridiculousto you?  Probably, but seemingly ridiculous shows up power are appropriate in Allanaki society.  Simply look at the supposed prevalent ridiculous noble fashions in Allanak:

In Allanak, styles tend to be dictated by the nobles, and often the sillier the style, the more successful its reception, since they are considered a sign of wealth or importance. For example, shoes that one could not possibly walk in demonstrate that you have sufficient resources for a carriage or palanquin, and sleeves whose cuffs extend past the fingertips are no hindrance to someone accustomed to having all tasks performed by servants.

I think that despite the seemingly annoying and ridiculous trend, it could just be something commners have to put up with in order to ensure their lives.  If your character wants to try and risk it, go ahead.  He or she will probably have a good chance of getting away with it or not getting noticed.  Then again they may not.

[picklehead]

I tend not to insta-bow because a) I'm probably busy doing something else and I don't notice said templar or noble, but also because b) if I or anyone else was going to be constantly bowing whenever a blue-robbed templar past by or entered the room, we would be in a constantly bowed state. There are assloads of blue-robes (VNPCS and NPCS) coming and going all around the city.. it makes no sense to me that people would constantly be stopping whatever they were doing to bow to such people.

[creeper386]

I can see everyone bowing upon entry by a Templar in the south as being perfectly acceptable - since the Templars in Nak are much worse than those in Tuluk, if all accounts are accurate, then one would know a Templar stepped into a tavern by the audible gasp/silence/sound of chairs being pushed out as numerous people stand to bow. That, in no short amount of time, would quickly be the noise associated with Templars, and people would, on knee-jerk reaction, get up from their tables, or hop off the barstools.

The only problem is... I don't see everyone standing up and bowing whenever a templar comes into a room, or when they pass everyone bows or anything. Some might, but it wouldn't be everyone. Not only would it be a hindrance to the whole cities business like someone said earlier would be spent in perpetual bow... It'd be a hindrance to the templar. People don't move nearly as fast when they are trying to bow as they would when they aren't. People would be getting in lots of troubles if they were leaving a tavern a templar came in and they dropped into a bow, why? Your hindering that templar, that little bit of respect doesn't mean shit to the templar compared to you getting in his/her way.

And it'd be the same if it happened from people standing up. Even without everyone standing up most the taverns I'm sure wouldn't be grandly spacey. Still people walking around. It'd be much smarter to stay out of the way, and stay with the crowd as a whole then to get all cluttered up from standing and bowing. The templarate and nobles are better then commoners and most the time are smart enough that if they expected everyone to bow to them ALL the time, not only would nothing get done... But most of them would get in trouble for acting like they have more power then they do. Because interrupting a hundred maybe alot more people just because you walked in the door? I'm guessing that'd be reserved for the higher ups, and more important people... Else what would happen when a black robe or something walked in the door? Maybe everyone sprawl on the floor groveling and mass sacrifice to show their respect and willingness to lay their life on the line? Hmm? I don't know.

Creeper