The Answer to the Great Backstab Debate!

[5 day lifespan]

I was walking home from class today, and I was struck with an epiphany.  One side argues the backstab debate that it could be used nonlethally to spar, the other side says the skill, by its very nature, is used to do horrible freaking things to people with objects that need not even be that pointy.  Suddenly I realised why this was.  People's problems with backstab isnt how much damage it does, but HOW HARD IT IS TO HIT ANYTHING WITH IT!  Of course!  Backstab isnt like normal weapon skills, where To Hit is determined by Agility and Weapon Skill (Piercing) and damage is determined by Strength.  No, Backstab is a skill where To Hit is determined by the Skill level, and Damage is ALSO determined by the skill level!  Most people on the Pro Sparring side of the debate are truly more interested in HITTING with backstab more often, not the horrible damage thing.  I think that most of the people on the Pro Spar side would wholly agree with the Anti Spar side. Backstab does horrible damage and should not be sparred, it should be performed on the job, as it were, if it were not for that one simple fact: you cant hit with BS for a long time.

 Here is my proposal:  Backstab is a skill that only effects DAMAGE.  Your modifier or multiplier goes up as you increase in skill.  However, the To Hit roll for BS should be based on your Weapon Skill.

 It may be necessary to make it so you cant hit with BS until you get to a certain skill level with your piercing weapon, since  its focused on smaller points of the body, perhaps, but I think that might be too complicated.

 This is the problem with the skill, I feel.  Two rolls from one skill, as opposed to one roll each from several.  This answers also the idea of BS being a strike that gets through defenses, and it being one that does a critical hit.  This also answers my earlier query of how Ninjas do it.  Sure, they know how to slip inside someone's fighting defenses (good weapon skill) but it takes experience and study to know PRESCISELY how hard and deep to hit (good BS Skill).  If Backstab worked in such a way, I would completely agree with the Imm's and others' standpoint that sparring BS is twinkish.  Even starting off fights with one when your opponant can see you would be seen that way, unless you properly Emote it.

 But now, everyone can read my proposal, and tell me what they think.  I feel that this is a much better solution than having Assassins be Karma characters, or to eliminate the skill altogether.

5 Day Lifespan

[Sakra]

Is it possible to have a new 'practice stab' along the lines of the no-effect magick. You go through the motions of stabbing, but don't do any real damage. It would also have a higher learning curve than normal, but it at least allows non-lethal practice. Don't know how hard this might be to code, but it's just an idea.

[X-D]

assassin not the only class with backstab

[Kronibas]

I would like to show my enthusiasm for Sakra's idea.

 Having played a character who relied on such skills, I find it
frustrating to think that the only thing people can come up with
as a ways to practice is:
 "Uhhh, go backstab a gith, or something."

That isn't meant to be negative, but it's -very- easy to tear something
down without giving some sort of compromise.  

 I realize that the staff wishes to keep people who are really
good at backstab to a minimum, because the skill is simply
savage.  It's one of the most (potentially) dangerous things
in the game, and it SHOULD be limited.

 Having said that, Byn members SHOULDN'T be able to practice backstab
in a sparring scenario.  They are there to learn how to -fight-, not to
learn how to be trained killers.  Certain Houses, both of the noble
and merchant ilk, SHOULD have ways to train assassins.  They
shouldn't expect these players to run around killing wild
animals.  I find that notion somewhat.. silly, if not outright absurd.

 It is my thought that a way to "non-lethally" practice backstab would
ease some tension held by players in this somewhat tight situation.
As it is right now, the staff's policy is that there is to be no
usage of backstab in a training situation, no matter how well
played out it is.  This can be frustrating.

 Sakra's idea, if implemented with restrictions (i.e. roleplayed out
under the appropriate circumstances), could provide the middle ground
that is currently not available to PCs willing to go the distance
to roleplay out these skills.

Great idea, Sakra.

- Kronibas

[Quirk]

I'm seriously hoping that the people who voted to make assassins a karma class were expecting them to be beefed up somewhat if they became one.

I've seen on the GDB so far Pickpockets, Merchants and now Assassins all being advocated as deserving a move to karma-only; the first two, at least, without other changes. People don't complain about the vastly greater combat ability of Warriors, nor the huge selection of useful skills available to the Ranger or the Burglar, and they don't complain much when some possibly powergamed PC beats them in straight combat or mows them down with arrows, but woe betide the "twink" who successfully steals from them or backstabs them (and everyone who uses "steal" seems to be assumed a Pickpocket by the irate victim).

Without an adequate way to train backstab, the Assassin class becomes little more than a poor man's Burglar. That backstab can be twinked into a powerful skill matters little more than the potential of the powered-up combat ability of the Warrior, who achieves his or her strength much earlier in life. The point behind having something as a karma class is that it is supposed to offer advantages over the basic classes which should only be given to the trustworthy. Here and now, the Assassin class does not offer anything truly unbalancing compared to the abilities of other basic classes. The whole point of the discussion lately has been that it is damn hard to practice backstab effectively and ICly within, say, the confines of a noble House or other organisation which might employ assassins, and that Assassins currently are held back by this. Making them a karma class, by itself, is a treatment for the opposite problem, and would be suitable if they were currently too easy to grow powerful with.

Quirk

[Marc]

To all you people saying assassins are under powered or that backstab cannot be 'trained' you need to play one to at least 20-30 days.  The answers are not as obvious, but why should they be?

We are talking about a silent killer after all.  Not something common like a bodyguard, soldier, or a thief.

Without an adequate way to train backstab, the Assassin class becomes little more than a poor man's Burglar.

heheh   That is so off base it hurts.

True, there is quite a bit of overlap between ALL the thief classes, but assassins get a LOT of VERY powerful skills that burglars do not.  Off the top of my head I can think of.. three, two of which only one other class gets.  

Thats not to mention that their backstab has the potential to kill outright unlike a burglar.  Or that their poison can get much better (According to the help files).

They fight as well as rangers.  They get all the stealth skills.  They get a slew of combat skills.  And then there are all the branches that make a trained assassin outrageously fierce(as mentioned above).

Assassins are fine.  So what if they take more brainpower then a warrior?
One skilled they are more then a match for any other class.

[Quirk]

The key word here is "without". Yes, some assassins will find IC ways to train backstab, and they will grow powerful at 20-30 days. Those who don't won't even branch some of those super-powerful skills you're thinking of.

The problem has very little to do with "they take more brainpower than a warrior" and more to do with their being more limited by circumstances. If there is no IC way to train backstab within a clan, and real fights are not common (consider an assassin working for a noble, say), the assassin will of necessity prove far more limited.

The assassin's coded ability was never brought into question. The issue was with the RP, which you've signally failed to even mention in your haste to consider the code.

Quirk

[Marc]

I can take classes to learn to fight irl.  They are offered everywhere.

I'd have to look much much much harder to find a class that will teach me to use a garrot or properly cut someones throat.

Should it be any different on arm?

Opportunities do exist and they are not as limiting as you suggest.

[EDIT]And if a clan does not offer an avenue for an assassin to train backstab, that organization obviously does not utilize or foster 'silent killers'.

[Quirk]

The opportunities, such as they are, don't really exist in for example many noble Houses. Although people have mentioned different ways of using their backstab in practice without real combat, I've yet to hear one that has concorded with the view stated by most of the imms who've posted in the last several threads on the subject - that is, that "backstab" is a very real attempt to kill someone by taking them by surprise and ramming a weapon into a vital part.

In any case, my point was that the Assassin class is quite balanced compared with the other classes, and that as there are significantly more difficulties in the way of finding means to explore its skillset than there are for many of the other classes it could in fact be seen as somewhat disadvantaged. Certainly there's no need to make the class as is a karma class.

Quirk

[Kronibas]

Marc:

 As it is, there are (obviously) some clans that offer "shady" training.

Despite encouragement in the past... as it is, even clans that do
utilize 'silent killers' completely probihit usage of the "backstab" skill
in any sort of training.  It's simply not allowed, period, by edict of the
staff.  This hasn't always been the case, but that's the way it is now.

 I will agree with you, Marc, that it is completely possible to be
a good assassin without having a "high backstab skill."  However,
it's also possible to be a good Bynner without being a warrior.  You
can't overlook the fact, though, that the assassin class, traditionally,
is pretty much based around the backstab skill, like burglars
are with pick, like warriors are with their weapons skills, etc.

 The class isn't totally defunct due to the hamstringing of training,
in any case.  There ARE specialized ways to "get good at backstabbing."
You've just got to try to be creative, I guess, or be willing to run around
killing shit at random.  Personally, I don't see why using it against NPCs
is being placed over a roleplayed-out training scenario.  It seems to
me that the decisions made regarding assassins are due more to
the OOC desire to prevent everyone and his brother from becomming
BloodBath the Uber Slayer of Nightdom than what makes sense, ICly.

The middle ground that Sakra suggested could perhaps ease the
current bad blood (-snicker-) over the skill, but that's just an idea.  
Regardless, it's still quite possible for assassins to become powerful.
My point of contention is whether or not it's reasonable to ask players to
kill NPCs over a thought-out training situation.


There will always be assassins.  However, I don't like the idea of the
experienced ones being the chumps who run around backstabbing
rats.

That's just me, though.

- Kronibas

[5 day lifespan]

All this discussion, and yet no reasoning for why people want to leave it as it is instead of the idea I had, which would, incidentaly, make the mercy backstab idea unnecessary.  Thanks for the comments though, keep them coming.

[X-D]

I think Marc has the right of it in that given time an assassin is extremly deadly, but I have to disagree with

Assassins are fine. So what if they take more brainpower then a warrior?
One skilled they are more then a match for any other class.

to some degree, I notice that the balance in the game for classes is that each intelligently played becomes supreme in his area of expertise given enough time, if he would have added a skilled assassin is more then a match for any other class in his baliwick I would agree, but a skilled ranger would easily destroy an assassin if the assassin was in his domain (outdoors) a skilled warrior is going to truly mess up the ranger and assassin if it is full frontal attack, and the opposite applies to each of them.

I have played all three extensivly in the past, they are all eventually really scary in thier own ways...though I think ranger and assassin are a lot closer together then any other two classes, specialy with subclass choices, I often think of rangers as the wilderness assassins myself:)

Bottem line for me is, no reason to change them IMO, or make anything easier to work up/learn, if you cannot figure out good ic ways and be patient, maybe you should not play that class...shrug.

[creeper386]

Bottem line for me is, no reason to change them IMO, or make anything easier to work up/learn, if you cannot figure out good ic ways and be patient, maybe you should not play that class...shrug.

Well, there are IC ways that are fairly simple, but it seems no matter what, the staff won't go with it even if it's a really nice RP session. This means you have to always have to try to kill something to get better. Like I've said my one assassin I didn't have any problems with the backstab skill, but when told that I can't use it in a training setting no matter what the RP is rathing stupid.

If this is because the staff thinks it'd be too easy to get an uber assassin if you could train it, and that anyone would have too much power, and not be able to be trusted with it, it SHOULD be made a karma class. Because, magickers aren't necessarily made karma classes because they are harder to RP, all elementals are probably at the same level of hardness for RP, if you notice the more POWERFUL or higher up on the list, for the most part the RP for half-giants or muls really isn't that hard, but they have more power. If it would be too easy to get alot of power with an assassin in doing things that would make sense ICily, thats why they staff wants to limit things, thats stupid. I understand you wouldn't want everyone running around with an Uber assassin, but this should be dealt with OOC means, not by restricting RP ICily.

Now, this can be absolutely wrong, and maybe the staff has some other reasons for limiting RP, but I don't see any other reasons... I don't know. Oh well.

Creeper

Note: Not trying to say anything bad about the staff, their opinions or anything if it's read that way, and I can see how it can come acrossed that way. SHRUG, tends to when people see things different ways.

[Delirium]

Or maybe you can just train backstab on a sparring dummy. :P

Or RP several good sessions of 'anatomy' lessons and send them in to the mud.

[Angela Christine]

Because, magickers aren't necessarily made karma classes because they are harder to RP, all elementals are probably at the same level of hardness for RP, if you notice the more POWERFUL or higher up on the list, for the most part the RP for half-giants or muls really isn't that hard, but they have more power.

I'm not sure if it is that they are more powerful, or that they are less socially acceptable and therefore harder to be successful with.  The higher up the Karma scale you go the harder it is to get jobs and friends, and the more limited your options are.  Not many people want to be friendly with a Vivaduan, but no one wants to be friends with a Nilazi (not even other elementalists).  Since this is a social setting, being unable to interact with others is a significant handicap.  

The situation is similar with the races.  A human almost has to work hard to stay unemployed and friendless, the Houses are breaking down your door to hire you.  Elves (both varieties) have more trouble making friends (duh) but d-elves have the added problem of usually living in isolated locations while a city elf can at least sneak around and listen in on other people's social lives.  Half-giants don't have a social stigma, but it actually is kind of hard to play dumb-but-smart-enough-to-make-sentances.  And trying to figure out a plausible reason why your stray half-giant is wandering around with no friends or keepers can be a challenge.  Potentially they are powerful, but they are slow to start and hugely expensive to equip in anything other than containers (clothing with pockets is all one-size-fits-all).  Muls . . . you either special app as a slave with even less self-determination than a HG, or you start as an escaped slave.  As an escaped mul slave everyone you meet will assume you went berzerk and killed your keepers, and they are probably right.  You can't live in the two main cities (except the 'rinth section of 'nak) and even in the areas you can live you may have trouble finding a role you enjoy.  You can never be absolutely sure that any new friends you make aren't planning to turn you in for the reward money.  

Finding your place in the world is harder with the karma races and classes, and there is a major possibility of having no fun.  That makes playing them more difficult.  Sure they can become very powerful, but a human warrior can become plenty powerful too.

Assassins and other sneaky guilds are more difficult to get up and running than warriors or rangers, but not as hard as the karma classes.  A sneaky character can pass as wimpy fighter, a magicker (or merchant) can not.  At this point I don't think the situation is so difficult that they need to be moved to karma.  Training backstab is hard, but not as hard as a sorcerer trying to train his skills.  Assassins have the potential to be powerful, but every class has the potential to be powerful.

AC

Delerium, I notice you keep posting about training on a Dummy throughout all of these threads, and if you're serious, I'd like to hear your defense for it, because in the other threads there were some pretty strong argument against dummies.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I have, do, and will continue to train on a dummy. These are the reasons why I feel that it is a valid choice.

1) I have recieved no staff critisism concerning my use of the dummy.

2) I emote constantly, as though there was someone in the room with me.

3) The dummy's roughly humanoid body, when set swaying or spinning, provides an excellent tool for learning the art of quickly striking those vital areas, including: the neck, the groin, the base of the skull, the lower spine, the heart and the lungs.

When used realisticly, the dummy can be utilized. If it could not be, it would not be included in the game.

[Fedaykin]

I've decided to change my answer on this from "Keep it as is" to "Base To Hit on Piercing/Agility, Damage on BS."

Similar to how 5 day life span put it: There seems to be two schools of thought on what exactly backstab is. The first is the ability to inflict an extreme, life threatening wound in a single shot.  The second is being able to aim for and hit such a critical and life threatening spot, not necessarily the wounding itself.

Obviously the wounding you can not "train" in ways such as sparring or on dummies.  You need to actually inflict deadly wounds on living people to learn how to do it more effectively.

However, you still must know how to aim for these critical spots, and thats seems more a part of the weapon/stabbing/piercing skill itself and the aiming for these spots should definetly be somewhat trainable.  Therefore, I think base to hit should rely on your stabbing skill with a modifier based on stealth and whether or not the room is populated (allowing someone some cover to achieve surprise without necessarily being stealthy). The damage inflicted by the wound should solely come from knowledge and experience of inflicting these wounds in the past and as such should be based solely on the backstab skill.

Backstab should be a skill in critical wounding, not both critical wounding and the aiming of the weapon because that is where the confusion sets in.  The stabbing weapons subset in piercing weapons already handles weapon ability and aiming.  No need to have two skills for the same thing.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Fedaykin has a valid point concerning the ability to aim and the ability to actually inflict maximium damage. The warriors who choose daggers as weapons might hit you very hard on the head, but they still cannot do what they could with a backstabish action. They might hit you very hard and know where to hit you to do a lot of damage, but it is still not the same as a backstabish action.

The way the skill is implemented currently, however, there is no other way but to backstab things to get better at it. And let us be honest, if you want to be realistic, me stabbing animals in combat is NOT the same as me stabbing a human. But the options which -are- available and considered realistic to be RPed are so few...

Playing an assassin realisticly takes a vast amount of time, should you wish to get better at it. If you play a criminal, then you will likely get better at it more quickly than a law-abiding, House paid citizen.

That is the bottom line.

[Delirium]

I have, do, and will continue to train on a dummy. These are the reasons why I feel that it is a valid choice.

1) I have recieved no staff critisism concerning my use of the dummy.

2) I emote constantly, as though there was someone in the room with me.

3) The dummy's roughly humanoid body, when set swaying or spinning, provides an excellent tool for learning the art of quickly striking those vital areas, including: the neck, the groin, the base of the skull, the lower spine, the heart and the lungs.

When used realisticly, the dummy can be utilized. If it could not be, it would not be included in the game.

I would have answered you, Tony, but Venomz beat me to it.

Those are all the reasons why -reasonable- use of the training dummy would be a good way to practice almost any move. I'm NOT saying to go in there and twink out with 'backstab dummy' over and over again. I'm saying RP out how you set up, attack, your failure or success, etc etc.

I see -nothing- wrong with that, and since a dummy is made of canvas and sand or what have you, it won't be complaining like a PC rightly would when you stick it to 'im. ;)

I just wanted to hear your reasons, not that I thought it was a bad idea, I just thought the lack of backup to the statement wasn't helping you much

I really like how Fedaykin put it, and I'm thinking backstab is more of the wounding thing, not so much the hitting.

[Anonymous]

Let me see if I have this straight:

An assassin, according to you should be able to train backstab via sparring with the justification that he/she is learning WHERE to strike, not necessarily making a horrendous wound?

I find that logic lacking for one reason:

How will your assassin KNOW they are hitting the right place?

If they have an IC teacher to tell them where to strike, then RP a lesson and utilize the teach command.  
If there is no IC teacher, I can almost garuntee in 99.9% of the cases your character wont have an anatomy book to reference and the positive result (a slit throat, pierced liver, gouged eye etc) wont be there.

So how would practicing backstab while pulling your blow teach you anything?

The whole idea seems lacking from that angle(and no, that is not an attack/flame, just my opinion)

[Marc]

That was me ^^^^^^^^^^^

[creeper386]

If they have an IC teacher to tell them where to strike, then RP a lesson and utilize the teach command.
If there is no IC teacher, I can almost garuntee in 99.9% of the cases your character wont have an anatomy book to reference and the positive result (a slit throat, pierced liver, gouged eye etc) wont be there.

Like I've mentioned before. There may not be books to read and if there are most Zalanthans are illiterate so couldn't read them, AND their medical technology/knowledge may not be great... BUT for the most part, they knowledge that there are internal organs and that these are important are normally know in ANY society that has war. Your saying they wouldn't know a knife wound to the groin would severally hurt, incapacitate, and most likely let the person bleed to death? Or that a slit throat would be trouble? They may not know what a lung is but the probably would know that a hole in the chest cavity can be dangerous, they most likely have an idea that the heart is important, as well as wounds to the spine, neck head are trouble, and that wounds to the lower back and stomach are normally fatal.

If they don't know just those little bit... I'd like all the history to take out any wars and fighting and everything. And knowledge doesn't just have to come from acctually combat because Zalanthas strikes me as the type of society that would foster physicians that cut open live people to see how things work. They may not know the science behind everything... But they know the basic if this happens, this follows and so on.

The training... would be working on getting a blow there, at the right angles, at the right speeds, and being able to get away without getting cut down and such. Even when they may need some training for the exact positions and such that they WON'T learn from trying, they can still pick up ALOT of stuff from training that WOULD be useful.

Creeper

P.S. AC, yes most they are harder to play, but if they don't start out stronger, they normally have a higher ceiling. Muls even starting are fairly dangerous, at least compared to a human, elf or other starting race, so is a half-giant, I'm told desert elves themselves can be fairly strong off the bat. And fire elementalists I'm sure start out stronger then a water elementalist, and have alot more offensive power that can be dangerous just giving to anyone, as I'm sure do sorcerers and mind benders and what not. And even if you base it purely on RP troubles and difficulties to get good, assassin's tend to have that as well as the ability to become a dangerous force.

[Marc]

Creeper> I really didn't understand a quarter of that but...

People know getting hit in certain spots hurts like all hell.  Any male of any age knows taking a shot to the gonads is gonna hurt like hell, and most females of any age pick up on that too.  Same with the neck, eyes etc.

But those spots'll hurt if you get hit there at all, not just if it is a "suprise" attack.

Backstabbing is a suprise attack.  It is a "cheap shot".  It is taking advantage of your targets docile status and capitalizing on it.

That is why you can't backstab in combat and why flee/backstab/flee/backstab is frowned apon.

It is ALSO hitting someone where it will do the most damage.

If you wanna train correct locations to hit with a knowing partner, spar.  You will get better and your shots will eventually be mostly head, neck, and body shots, representing your characters knowledge...

on getting a blow there, at the right angles, at the right speeds

If your knowing partner doesn't mind you taking cheap shots, then backstab.  My guess is not too many people will be happy about it though.