"Hold that pose" - Archery Ettiquette

[Malifaxis]

Hey all...

This is a spin off of the discussion on how NPCs have a specific problem:  Namely, you shoot them, and they don't seem to care and blindly go about their business.

Now, honestly, if you shoot anything with something, it's going to go somewhere.  It's just the nature of a living being:  fight or flight.  Whether it be the vestric running off, or the guardsman shouting a berserk charge and rushing to gut you, something with a brand spanking new piercing is most likely not going to appreciate the thought that went in to its placement.

So I pose this as my question:  When should we stop firing?  I mean, code-wise, I could go out and find Ace Mekillot, and sit there with my new Salarri 2000 Ultra-Swank Crossbow of Doom, and shoot him for... oh... three or four kings ages if I had the bolts.  Now, RP wise, logically the first bolt that Ace M. actually noticed would drive him to a frothing rage and he'd have to find a kind wandering jozhal to remove a sharp shard of me from his paw.

So what should we do?

You draw aim on your target...
You shoot a glowing, faerie-fletched arrow to the west.
You hit an elderly, balding mekillot in the rump with your arrow.

think Uh oh.
l w
[Far]  An ancient, well respected Mekillot named Ace is here.
think He looks mad.
think OH NO, HE'S CHARGING!
w
em watches with fear as the mekillot bears down on him.
w
An ancient, well respected mekillot named Ace is here, bleeding annoyedly.

say (raising his arms before his face, cowering in fear) Noooooooooo!!!!
k ace

So beyond the obvious levity of the above example (I mean seriously, *NO* one can fletch faerie wings.  They're just too fragile), and back to the original point of this ramble:

How many arrows is 'Too Much"?  Personally, I don't like to shoot anything more than three times.  Do I do it sometimes?  Yes.  Of course.  Why?  Because it feels GOOOOOOD to shoot thin... erm, because it's easier than risking certain death.  Do I do it often?  Hell no.  Pretty much only when I'm off doing something stupid alone.  When I'm dragging someone else to certain death, doing my stupid things, I love to RP it out.  Hence, I do anything that takes longer... like not pincushioning George T Gortok.

Oh, and bear with me, I'm going to butcher this somehow, but it's my first poll post.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Butcher is a tad of an understatement.

Subject in mind, however. I personally feel that if you want to shoot something with arrows, it should come see you. The code itself would be, I think, easy to implement, and somewhat along the lines of a mprog.

mp_trigger: arrow flies in from the west and hits you/etc/etc.
mp_command:west

mp_trigger: arrow flies in from the north and hits you/etc/etc.
mp_command:north

Now we get to the aggression portion.

mp_trigger: arrow flies in from the west and hits you/etc/etc.
mp_command: west
ifPC in_room
mpkill PC

Now I am sure it could and would be refined more than that, dealing as per nature with each different creature, some fleeing, some still remianing still, and some others charging and attacking, but that would prevent shoot, load, shoot, etc. It would also, depending on the speed of that NPC you are shooting, make some of the odd things possible now not so easy to do anymore.

An arrow battle could be more like this after the implementation of said idea:

shoot mek west far
e
pull quiver
l w
think Wow! That thing is getting way to close for comfort
e
shoot mek west
A hulking mek has arrived from the west.
run
e
e
e

A thought.

[John]

Let me get this straight. I can shoot an NPC and with the current code the NPC won't start chasing me? Cool. *loads up his crossbow*

Seriously. I imagine it'd be simple enough to implement. With the current code, when you flee from battle the NPC chases you. So when you shoot an NPC make the NPC think battle has already occured and you've fled.

You could also make it so dumb NPCs need to be fired a few times before they realise what's going on, and then react accordingly (either flee or chase). But will you get crim flagged for throw/shooting? (I imagine they're the same).

I was actually thinking about this myself yesterday after like 15 arrows into one creature (Starting archery, you know, regen faster than I can shoot) but the thing just sat there... depending on the creature, have it do something. Perhaps it just moves around dumbly after taking so much damage? Maybe it goes anywhere besides where the arrow came from, maybe it -takes off- (For instance if it's a very low Hp creature, then you have to track it down, could be fun) Or, if it's big and mean, it'll come after you.

[X-D]

I would agree about things knowing you are shooting them and fleeing or coming at you....IRL only.

See, this is simulation/game, archery is one of the things in the game (aside from magick of course) That is the LEAST realistic. I hunt almost exclusivly with bows, have for a long long time now, In real life even a relative newbie with a bow can kill a deer on the first shot, on arm even an expert would be lucky to hit a tandu and many other deer sized critters on zalanthas.

If the critters were to chase or run on zalanthas when shot at then the archery system, something that is already cumbersome and extremely time consuming and expensive to get even good at would need to be completly revamped to allow one hit kills, hits to the head body and neck, also hits to legs on a two legged creature would effectivly hobble it.

No body wants to see this happen though, archery can be pretty darn powerful already, but to make it so npc's and animals flee or chase when shot at would make it pretty much useless except for in pvp.

Now, something I would like see changed in archery is the shooting and wind, game needs to make a check on if you are shooting with a crosswind or upwind or downwind, not allowing a shot with a crosswind but allowing one up or downwind, maybe even giving slightly less damage upwind and slightly more down, all I know is I can kill a deer in a 30mph wind (up or never tried down, can't get close enough) and I am betting I could in gale force.

The Un-realism of arm archery is undoubtably there for playability reasons:)

How many arrows is 'Too Much"? Personally, I don't like to shoot anything more than three times. Do I do it sometimes? Yes. Of course. Why? Because it feels GOOOOOOD to shoot thin... erm, because it's easier than risking certain death. Do I do it often? Hell no. Pretty much only when I'm off doing something stupid alone. When I'm dragging someone else to certain death, doing my stupid things, I love to RP it out. Hence, I do anything that takes longer... like not pincushioning George T Gortok.

Do to the above mentioned unrealism of the arm archery code, I myself find it impossible to RP number of arrows shot in a realistic fashion and so, ignore it completly, My chars will shoot till...target dead, arrows gone, bored, frustrated..

I mean come on, my char uses a bow that most humans can't pull, has fired over 200 arrows in his life, was in the same room as a vestric, shot it in the head with an obsidian tipped arrow and it attacked him, after having it's head impaled....shrug, how do you RP that?

[Gawynn]

Hrm maybe I'm mixing memories, but it seems like I have some vague recollection that things -used- to chase you down when you shot them... seems like I remember (years and years ago) shooting something, then when it entered to kick your ass, having the rest of your group attack it... (of course, this was before every creature in the forest ran away from you when you walked in, with the exception of tregil or something)
Ah well, I could be thinking of something else, or could just be confused. My memory of that far back is fuzzy at best

Gawynn

[halfbreed]

Personally, I found the original post here extremely amusing.  Bravo.

That said, I try not to load a critter up with a dozen arrows.  I've shot one up with about 5 before, and already felt twinkish.  Still, with archery being hard as it is to raise (at least for my char it seems) not sure what else could/should be done.

One thing of note...  I seem to recall when I played 5 years ago that when you shot a critter one room away, it would ALWAYS come after you if you hit it.  Am I the only one who remebers this?  Why was this code taken away?  Methinks it should make a return...  more realistic than the creature just sitting there absorbing damage.

A couple rooms away is a bit more understandable...  perhaps most critters are too dumb to tell where an arrow is coming from, and just run around in circles, getting nailed.  But I believe in the past, from the adjacent room, shooting any creature/NPC would generate instant aggressiveness in that beastie and they would come right atcha.

[Vendyra]

I think Malifaxis has a good assumption with three arrows.  I would place that as a very reasonable number that you could shoot at a creature before it gets frustrated with you.

...was in the same room as a vestric, shot it in the head with an obsidian tipped arrow and it attacked him, after having it's head impaled....shrug, how do you RP that?

Without getting into the gory details, things like these are freak accidents that do happen.  The creature occasionally survives.  Here's a news story which documents it, but the link is not for the faint of heart.

[Eclipse]

The one time I've used a bow so far, I remember it took an entire quiver to actually even hit it once which was quite annoying. Though back then, I only carried ten arrows in a quiver (figured having twenty to have one jammed packed was kind've wierd). Personally, I would shoot three or four times while emoting possible actions the target was taking and then either continue shooting with emotes that reflected the changes or move to shoot at the target from another direction.

Just a note that I think gets overlooked a lot: Each screen in the wilds is like a mile or a league, I can't remember which one it was. Meaning, the target isn't a square mile in size so they could be moving around in that area trying to get cover or maybe they're having trouble moving due to the arrow you shot into their leg. If I were being shot at IRL, I wouldn't look at the guy shooting at me and charge them while they're cocking another arrow, that would just be suicidal. I would duck behind a tree probably and try to get closer gradually whenever he was reloading. Crossing that great of a distance in a few seconds always feels a bit odd. *shrug* Maybe just me.

[X-D]

True, they sometimes do, but I was under the impression that a vestric was around turkey sized.

Also, the arrow that got the roo was either without a head or of a target type, in the area it was shot, if the arrow would have been equipt with pretty much any of the current hunting broadheads there would have been basicly zero chance on survival, now, take any turkey sized earth animal and look at flint broadheads and imagine it slamming into the head of said animal at 200-300mph, it would be pulverized...shrug.

If I had shot that 'roo with one of my hunting crossbows, it would be dead, It would either have a hole the size of a golfball drilled through it's neck or I'd have used an impact head and turned it's neck and spine into so much jell-o.

That is the problem, at least from my side, I hunt, often, have been since I was 8 (24 years ago) Thats nearly a quarter century, I have been hunting with bows pretty much exclusivly for the last 17 years.

Which is why I say they are the way they are for playability and maybe ease of coding and to maybe cut down the abuse of shooting an animal so that it will run in a nd get cut down by the warriors waiting for it:)

Three arrow limit? hell, 3 arrows and it should be DEAD, I put 3 arrows into any land animal on earth and it is dead, but you can pump 5-20 into a vestric and they often keep ticking. True, my chars archery is high enough now that he kills vestric in under 3 arrows, normaly.


Also, I have to take into account bow strength a bit, the bow my char has I figure is around 150-225# pull min, since it is perfect for him and I have not found a human that it is not too strong for:) So, this gives an arrow speed of around 300-375mph, impact with a broadhead around 12,000 psi.

I ignore number of arrows as I said, otherwise I go nuts, and my char thinks all animals have armored vitals and blood vessels close off to stop bleeding, which is why he often has to pump 3 arrows into the body of a duskhorn and 2 into it's head.

[crymerci]

I say use all the arrows you want, if you want to play an archer. My only caveat would be, if you take something down via many arrows, and get a skin when skinning, you ought to junk it, since it would be so riddled with holes.

[X-D]

Done that:)

[krelin]

Uh.  So warriors and rangers that kill things with a zillion pierce/slash strikes ought to junk their hides also?  Right?

[crymerci]

Yeah, if a lot of the hits were on the body, as opposed to, for example,  the head or neck.

[Stroker]

Not that I am for the mindless killing of npcs with archery, but how far is an actual step. For instance, you go east once, how far have you gone? I don't remember the exact distance but I think it was pretty far. Thus, if you are crouching or lying and you shoot someone, yes they'll be hurt, but they won't necessarily charge you, but they could run away I guess.

[crymerci]

That's a good point. One would have to decide whether said animal were a) intelligent enough to guess trajectory b) keen-sighted enough to see the attacker.

[Angela Christine]

I haven't tested it recently, but I think animals that are 1 room away may attack, but if you have a good bow that can shoot animals 2 rooms away they don't react.  Two rooms is a long way, so maybe they can't tell where it is comming from.

There is also the quirks in the archery code, your skill as an archer affects both your chance to hit and how much damage you do.  As a newbie archer I hit a jozhal three times with my sling, rode into the room where the jozhal was and assessed it, it was in excellent condition!  I can only guess that each hit did only 1 or 2 point of damage, and the jozhal managed to heal before the next stone hit him.  A Zalanthan misquito is probably more irritating than a newbie archer.  

Rather than reacting when the first stone or arrow rolls in and bumps into his toe, I think most creatures wouldn't necessarily react to a hit that takes less than 5-10% of their health.  Apparently inix let shiks walk up to them and suck their blood, so a stray arrow nick is going to be shrugged off as just another damn shik.  A mek or bahamet probably won't even notice a 1 point hit, they do more damage than that to themselves when they scratch an itch or step on a sharp shard of bone.  Very small or paranoid animals might freak out at a 1 point hit, but most won't.  If you can fire your entire quiver at a beast, hitting him a few times, and then ride into the room to find the creature in excellent condition or relatively fit, then obviously your fire wasn't that disturbing to it.  The animal mistook your arrows for kank flies and ignored them.

At this point I don't think you need to do anything special while skinning or tanning the hide, the code takes care of this pretty well.  If you are that bad at archery and combat, then chances are you are also pretty bad at skinning, so most of your hides will turn out to be unusable anyway.  (I usually interpret hacking the corpse to pieces failure mesages to mean there was something wrong with the meat/hide and that I wasn't skilled enough to salvage anything, not that I actually converted the corpse into a useless slurry.  I'm a ranger, not a juicer.)  If you go on to try to tan the hide most of your hides will be ruined in tanning.  If you happen to be a warrior/armor crafter that just branched archery you might be an excelent skinner but a lousy archer and shoot 12 arrows into beasts before you take them down, but still manage to usually skin them successfully.  In this case you might declare some hides unusable and junk them, or you might declare that you are such a skillful skinner/tanner that you were able to sew the holes closed so expertly that most people won't be able to tell there were ever holes there to begin with.  It's all good.

AC

Well, for the most part an arrow hole won't make a huge craft-disrupting hole, it's not like a dime shaped hole or anything, it's a little slit, and a bitty hole that can be sewed up easily, especially after being removed.

I always looked at failed tannings as one of two things (As far as hide goes)
1) Cut slipped while slicing membranes away from the inside of the skin, thus, covering your hand and arm in lots of goo, and putting your knife through a big slash on the other side. Maybe one you can live through, but two probably not.

2) Cut open the entrails/bladder, or both. Makes a big mess and a stink out of everything (Especially meat) And while it is salvagable, probably couldn't sell it for much or use it for much anyway.