Racism vs. half-elves and elves

[staggerlee]

It's "OK" to start a fight about anything you want. The outcome of the fight may not necessarily be favorable to your character. But that is "OK" too.

I think it's important not to assume that because a human character won't let you beat up / insult / otherwise abuse a half-elf character...then they must be a documentation-ignoring jerkwad. There is probably more going on than you see or know.

That's much like what I was getting at in a round about way. Don't assume anything about their intentions but rather react as you feel is appropriate for your character.  At the very worst you'll stir up trouble and get some conflict rp out of it.

Realize ooc that you don't know the whole story, but don't feel pressured to realize that ic. 

[Seeker]

Steering away from any particular incident, I still maintain (from my own interactions) that lipping off prejudicially to a PC half-elf (even one who appears unclanned) is much more likely to gather a posse gang-raping devoted friends, friends of devouted friends and rabid, equality-minded busybodies than not.  And I freely admit I don't know the entire story behind all the persona involved.  I freely admit my style of verbal smack-down to Breeds might encourage it.  I -intend- to be nasty, superior and bigoted to them.  Not sorry.


Seeker

[Qzzrbl]

Steering away from any particular incident, I still maintain (from my own interactions) that lipping off prejudicially to a PC half-elf (even one who appears unclanned) is much more likely to gather a posse gang-raping devoted friends, friends of devouted friends and rabid, equality-minded busybodies than not.  And I freely admit I don't know the entire story behind all the persona involved.  I freely admit my style of verbal smack-down to Breeds might encourage it.  I -intend- to be nasty, superior and bigoted to them.  Not sorry.


Seeker

[Barzalene]

Yes, there may be justifications for why and how and so forth. All that said, I think the post can serve nicely as a reminder to all of us that breeds are inferior, and if you're palling around with them, you're inferior and there is something wrong with you. And if you're employing them, you look inferior for doing so. As long as we can all bear that in mind we should be good.

[Malken]

Barzalene wins. You people should be ashamed to try and defend such behaviors, ashamed, I say!

You always have a reason as to why you're flirting with the gemmer, as to why your mate is an elvish beauty, as to why you're
quick to come to the defense of that poor breed who's being insulted.

Trouble is that too many of you have a reason for everything, and in your mind, it's always the most clever reason and it hasn't been done before.

Wrong! You're the reason why people can't play by the docs, you're the reason why you all complain that Armageddon isn't harsh anymore, you're the reason why nobodoy seems to care anymore and we all play to be buddies with everyone else.

There, I said it. You can all thank me later. Now go slap a breed behind the head for me and cheer for Qzzrbl because at least he tried.

[Qzzrbl]

Barzalene wins. You people should be ashamed to try and defend such behaviors, ashamed, I say!

You always have a reason as to why you're flirting with the gemmer, as to why your mate is an elvish beauty, as to why you're
quick to come to the defense of that poor breed who's being insulted.

Trouble is that too many of you have a reason for everything, and in your mind, it's always the most clever reason and it hasn't been done before.

Wrong! You're the reason why people can't play by the docs, you're the reason why you all complain that Armageddon isn't harsh anymore, you're the reason why nobodoy seems to care anymore and we all play to be buddies with everyone else.

THANK YOU!

[JustAnotherGuy]

You're just a breed in disguise Qzz...  I'll make sure to slap you the next time I see you.

[Qzzrbl]

You're just a breed in disguise Qzz...  I'll make sure to slap you the next time I see you.

That's right! And I'll piss on your boots and run away like the scuzzy little breed I am!

[Seeker]

And then go off and wallow in isolation and self-loathing for a couple months after the whole ordeal.


Seeker

[Qzzrbl]

And then go off and wallow in isolation and self-loathing for a couple months after the whole ordeal.


Seeker

And I, as a reasonably responsible player, will play this out accordingly. Because such things are written in the documentation and I realize that if I don't want to rp self-loathing and isolation, then I just won't create a half-elf....

[Bebop]

You can be racist without gettin' kilt.

Maybe you can work with them but call them degrading names, play pranks, refuse to eat/drink after them or at the same table.  It might catch on.  This is one of the places I do think you can really play what you want to see.

[staggerlee]

You can be racist without gettin' kilt.

Maybe you can work with them but call them degrading names, play pranks, refuse to eat/drink after them or at the same table.  It might catch on.  This is one of the places I do think you can really play what you want to see.

This is about it.  Racism in real life isn't generally horribly explosive confrontations.  It's more like snickering, quite jibes and more importantly exclusion from certain places, social scenes, jobs and so forth.

What I'd recommend, and I've seen this done ic, is basically what Bebop says.  Low level racism. The explosive stuff comes out when something goes wrong. Bait them, harass them and be an ass whenever you can get away with it and if you see someone else doing it, quietly sympathize with them.  Find them through the Way and say something like "I know how you feel brother, I wish someone would do something about those damn breeds huh?"  That way you get rp and make connections with the other people who feel the way you do, without putting yourself out on a limb. And in the meantime you're hating on them in a way that doesn't forcefully exclude them or make them solo rp.

The real explosive racism comes when things go wrong, that's when you get the lynch mobs shouting for blood.  Breeds getting executed because someone had to take the fall for that murder, and he happened to be passing by. Whatever. That's not a day to day occurrence.  Settle for bitching about breeds taking the jobs of good nakki citizens in the mean time.

[Qzzrbl]

You can be racist without gettin' kilt.

Maybe you can work with them but call them degrading names, play pranks, refuse to eat/drink after them or at the same table.  It might catch on.  This is one of the places I do think you can really play what you want to see.

This is about it.  Racism in real life isn't generally horribly explosive confrontations.

Back in the day it was.

[staggerlee]

This is about it.  Racism in real life isn't generally horribly explosive confrontations.

Back in the day it was.

I thought someone would try to call me on that. But frankly, no. If you have a specific example you'll have to explain, because "back in the day" is kind of vague.

My argument would be that societies tend towards an equilibrium and stability, with occasional outbreaks of conflict.  Constant conflict isn't really sustainable.  Having a race or group within society suffer from extreme discrimination and segregation is one thing, all out war between two races that live in the same place is something else entirely. 

But if you have a more specific example you're welcome to hit me up here or take it to private messages.

The way I see it, constant open conflict between half-elves and everyone else would lead to there being no living half-elves in Nak, there's no reason the powers that be would tolerate that. We're talking about a very powerful totalitarian state here.   Rather half elves exist as a sort of underclass with negotiated boundaries, they get shitty jobs and poor treatment but if they don't cross the line  they (usually) won't get worse than a nasty attitude.

[Qzzrbl]

This is about it.  Racism in real life isn't generally horribly explosive confrontations.

Back in the day it was.

I thought someone would try to call me on that. But frankly, no. If you have a specific example you'll have to explain, because "back in the day" is kind of vague.

My argument would be that societies tend towards an equilibrium and stability, with occasional outbreaks of conflict.  Constant conflict isn't really sustainable.  Having a race or group within society suffer from extreme discrimination and segregation is one thing, all out war between two races that live in the same place is something else entirely. 

But if you have a more specific example you're welcome to hit me up here or take it to private messages.

The way I see it, constant open conflict between half-elves and everyone else would lead to there being no living half-elves in Nak, there's no reason the powers that be would tolerate that. We're talking about a very powerful totalitarian state here.   Rather half elves exist as a sort of underclass with negotiated boundaries, they get shitty jobs and poor treatment but if they don't cross the line  they (usually) won't get worse than a nasty attitude.

Oogetyboogetyboo, I probably could've went without posting this one.

[staggerlee]

Absolutely.
That's one of the "occasional outbreaks of conflict" that I mentioned. I won't dispute that they happened (and continue to happen), even with a disturbing frequently.  But regardless of frequency or intensity those are spikes and not every day behavior.
Everyday behavior would be characterized more by repression than outright violence.

[Barzalene]

I hope I'm not offending anyone. I don't think we need real life accounts of terrible brutality. The difference between in game discrimination and real life discrimination is a huge chasm. One is tragic and an abomination that requires mental contortions to justify, the other is prescribed in the docs and makes a pretend world a richer place.

[staggerlee]

You're absolutely right. I was trying to stay away from specific examples as best I could, but the topic was bound to generate them.  Sorry about that.
Qzzrbl, or however you spell that, if you're actually interested in discussing this you're welcome to take it to private messages, but I'm going to shut my mouth now.

[Qzzrbl]

I hope I'm not offending anyone. I don't think we need real life accounts of terrible brutality. The difference between in game discrimination and real life discrimination is a huge chasm. One is tragic and an abomination that requires mental contortions to justify, the other is prescribed in the docs and makes a pretend world a richer place.

True enough.... But he did ask for an example. -shrug-

On to something else.... I'm not saying breeds and elves should be beaten on a regular basis or anything, I just get sick and tired of people completely ignoring the docs and playing interdependent half-elves and the bleeding heart humans/kank-riding elves that befriend them without a second thought.

[Yam]

breeds and elves should be beaten on a regular basis

I am in complete agreement.

[Qzzrbl]

You can be racist without gettin' kilt.

Maybe you can work with them but call them degrading names, play pranks, refuse to eat/drink after them or at the same table.  It might catch on.  This is one of the places I do think you can really play what you want to see.

That's the thing. I was nearly put in a position in which I might've been killed for just that, subtle racism.

[Gimfalisette]

But you know, if you look at racism in the US...blacks and whites did interact, did work together, did shop in the same places and so on. You wouldn't have found too many white women in the US south at the time who said outright, "No black woman is going to come clean my house!"...because that was work that was considered suited for the other "race."

It's possible to consider and treat someone as inferior, while still not abusing them outright, is my point. That doesn't mean outright, vicious abuse shouldn't happen...but a low-level haze of an assumption about their inferiority is much more believable and workable.

Employ half-elves...but don't treat them as well as your human employees. Buy everyone at your table a round, including the half-elf...but make sure the half-elf is served last. Drink an ale with a half-elf...but don't fall in love with them. Talk to a half-elf...but don't hold the conversation as if they were your equal.

Etc.

[Southie]

As I think I pointed out in a thread last week about gemmers, physical abuse and brutality is just one way to show hostility or prejudice to somebody. There's plenty of others, but sometimes I think people take the view that the only way to show prejudice towards somebody is to act like they're your punching bag. Not true, and often not even smart.

[Salt Merchant]

Makes you wonder why all the half-elves and elves and gemmers and 'rinthi don't band together to kick obnoxious human ass.

[Marauder Moe]

They don't like each other either.