Backstab RP

[The Lonely Hunter]

SKILL_BACKSTAB  (Combat)  


This skill is a generic term for 'critical strikes' against an opponent. The victim of a backstab is not necessarily 'stabbed in the back'-- the attack could be from any direction. If your character successfully backstabs someone, the target has been 'hit in a vital location,' and will be badly injured, the severity of the injury depending on your character's backstab skill level.

Now, we have had the talk about BS in sparring before and I beleave the general idea was its bad. I think it would be already since it is blunted weapons and it isnt actually a stab in the back (well, it could be) but I'll go along with this...

We have talked about bad backstab RP but I don't beleave I've ever seen anyone post about good backstab RP.

Opinions?

[Rindan]

A backstab is not a normal hit.  It is a critical strike, but it is not JUST a critical strike.  It is a surprise strike.  So, if you are talking to someone casually while slicing fruit, then suddenly stab them in the face, that would be a good backstab in my opinion.  If you open sparring by back stabbing, then I think that is down right silly.  Clearly your opponent is ready for you to strike.  If you could sneak past there defenses to deliver a 'critical strike' when they are ready for it, then you are a bad ass warrior, not an assassin, and you would make every hit a 'critical strike'.

As to how to 'train' backstab, simply use it in combat.  Group combat in particular offers the chance to do a good backstab.  Simply wait for others to start combat, then creep around and try and deliver that critical strike while the person you are fighting is busy with others.  In that case, I feel you actually can say that you are using surprise to deliver a blow you could not normally slip past your opponents defenses.

A backstab is a surprise attack.  As long as you keep that in mind, I don't think you can go wrong.  If you think you can attack a target, and you believe that the attack would be unexpected or unnoticed, then I think you are justified in backstabbing someone.

[jhunter]

I agree backstab is a surprise attack. But I can also see how it could be used in sparring if it was emoted correctly.
For example: Two chars walk into a ring to do some sparring, as they prepare the shifty, hooded guy kneels down to tighten up a piece of armor when he suddenly lunges with an attack on the buff, sweaty dude.

Or the opponents step into the ring to face off when the shifty, hooded guy looks over the buff, sweaty dude's shoulder, eyes widening. Then the shifty, hooded guy launches his attack IF the buff, sweaty dude looks back over his shoulder to see what's there.

I guess I'm saying I see both sides of the issue, if done correctly I can see how it could be used in sparring to practice it. But not actually playing it out, I don't think so.

Just throwing in my 'sids.
-jhunter

[jhunter]

Just a little something I wanted to add.

If someone were to do something like that when we were going to spar and my char fell for it and had a backstab attempted on him. I'd have to say good job playing it out and good practice for a possible real combat situation to use backstab. They don't have to be invisible for it to be a surprise, you can always distract them so you could get the jump on them.

[Kharun]

I see nothing at all OOCly wrong with using a critical strike during sparring, however, if your PC is going to do this, s/he had better be ready for the consequences, because there surely SHOULD be some IC!

If you and I are tag sparring in martial arts, then you suddenly lunge in at me and give me a finger strike to the throat, I am probably going to be extremely pissed off at you, and judging from whether the strike is successful or not, I will do my best to kick your fucking ass into some humiliating form of incapacitation.

Crit striking during sparring might be acceptable among some elements of society, but not among most.

[rnix]

I highly doubt he was speaking of walking into the byn sparring room and backstabbing one of the two people fighting!

[Anonymous]

I see nothing at all OOCly wrong with using a critical strike during sparring, however, if your PC is going to do this, s/he had better be ready for the consequences, because there surely SHOULD be some IC!

If you and I are tag sparring in martial arts, then you suddenly lunge in at me and give me a finger strike to the throat, I am probably going to be extremely pissed off at you, and judging from whether the strike is successful or not, I will do my best to kick your fucking ass into some humiliating form of incapacitation.

Crit striking during sparring might be acceptable among some elements of society, but not among most.

Well said.  There is nothing OOCly wrong with using a backstrike during sparring, but from an IC perspective your PC needs to have motivation for basically trying to kill the other one and you shouldn't be surprised if the other person gets pissed.

Or, to put it more simply.  Its not ok to practice backstab during sparring, but its perfectly fine to try a backstab during sparring if you are out to hurt or kill the person you are sparring with.

[jhunter]

Hrrrmm, seems to me if your using sparring weapons your OBVIOUSLY not trying to kill the other person IC or OOC. And if they get pissed about it seems like it's their own issue.

Just about as stupid as them getting pissed because they got hit during a sparring match.
IC, good training for both characters, teaches one to use tactics to get in a backstab, and teaches the other nod to be so damned gullible.

[Carnage]

Hrrrmm, seems to me if your using sparring weapons your OBVIOUSLY not trying to kill the other person IC or OOC. And if they get pissed about it seems like it's their own issue.

If someone deliberately tried to punch you in the crotch with boxing gloves on, because you were sparring, wouldn't you be pissed off?

Pretty much the same thing, except a backstab in sparring is more dangerous.

[Cenghiz]

"backstab" may mean a sneak attack, then can't be done while sparring. Your opponent will be concentrated and aware of the battle. But... as in D&D, you may try to explain by making a bluff hit;
>emote stands against ~<bla>, raising ~<bla>
>emote suddenly ducks right and swings ~<bla> into the ground, to the right of ~<bla>
>backstab bla
>say -snickering Look at my eyes, not at my weapons.

But it's still a little power-emote because you assume that your opponent loses your concentration but maybe he doesn't.

Your ideas? Any ideas to help the sneaky chars to have them learn faster and come kick our asses? I think a solution IC must be found. I never played a sneaky char yet but I believe "backstab" is important for them. There are not so much people attacking me from behind. I want more, so let's ease the things for them.

[jhunter]

I agree with Cenghiz, I just returned to Arm about 7 or 8 month ago RT and haven't had a single item stolen, and haven't seen or heard about much criminal activity other than one instance that I can recall in the entire time.

Back in '95,'96 I used to see or hear about some type of criminal activity every so often, seems almost like it's nonexistant now. Anyhow it feels like something is missing since I've been back and that seems to be one of the biggest things.

-jhunter

[creeper386]

From what I've understood from reading the threads, the main problem with backstab in sparring is you can't really control how much you do, and at some point you'll end up with an accident.

ICally, even if you are ready for someone doesn't mean you can't be surprised, or that they can't be quicker then you, and blah blah blah. Most the time ICally they are expecting a straight on attack, if you pull off a summersault and come up stabbing, or do something else that isn't the "common" thing, it could be quite surprising. ICally, I don't think people could be mad that you tried killing them, but could be mad at you for going out of the norm with a surprise attack. Now if you assassin is decent in combat and doesn't cause serious injury with the initial attack, and ended up still winning with weapon skills instead of the person fleeing after the first attack, I can see it being acceptable, and the first few times I could see you getting bitched out ICally for your surprised attacks if you were doing damage and that you have to spar normally.

And if you killed someone, it could be alittle underhanded but I don't think it could really be considered much different then a really good fighter not taking precautions and ending up killing a first time runner, but thats just how I see it.

The main problem though... Is your character is probably NOT trying to kill your sparring partner, but right from the begining you might have a chance of killing them, and you can't really control that, and like with the Tzai Byn it seems Tlaloc's main concern is IC accidents when there shouldn't be one. I think. Thats what I got from is posts, is having no control over it, as well as ICally the sneaky, surprised underhand technique may get you in abit of trouble since it's not the common thing to do.

Creeper who's done.

[Rindan]

I agree backstab is a surprise attack. But I can also see how it could be used in sparring if it was emoted correctly.
For example: Two chars walk into a ring to do some sparring, as they prepare the shifty, hooded guy kneels down to tighten up a piece of armor when he suddenly lunges with an attack on the buff, sweaty dude.

Or the opponents step into the ring to face off when the shifty, hooded guy looks over the buff, sweaty dude's shoulder, eyes widening. Then the shifty, hooded guy launches his attack IF the buff, sweaty dude looks back over his shoulder to see what's there.

I guess I'm saying I see both sides of the issue, if done correctly I can see how it could be used in sparring to practice it. But not actually playing it out, I don't think so.

Just throwing in my 'sids.
-jhunter

Jhunter, those are all perfectly valid ways of doing a backstab during a spar, but there are two major problems.  First, in any clan I have been in that is a military organization, you get the shit kicked out of you if you attack someone before they are ready.  If the other guy does not have his weapons up and is not ready for the attack, and you attack, that is like hitting someone while they are resting.  You start from two readied positions, and you don't start to fight until both sides are clearly ready.  Sure you can do it, but expect the rightful ass kicking that you are going to get from your sergeant.  If I had a character in charge of sparring and I saw that I would have them severely punished, or more likely, 'surprise' attack them and beat them into a nice slumber.

The other problem was even if that sort of silliness was allowed, it only works a couple of times then it is flat out OOC abuse.  Sure, you might be able to surprise someone once or twice, but after that people are just going to role their eyes when you yell "holy shit there is a mek behind you!".  That is like stealing the knife from the guy who emotes putting his hand on the hilt of his knife.  It is flat out twinkish and abusive.

There is, in my opinion, absolutely no place for backstab in a normal one on one spar.

[jhunter]

Rindan, not once did I say that if they were to roll their eyes like oh yeah the backstabber should do it anyway that is exactly the opposite of what I said.
To point out I did say IF they fall for it. :wink:

[creeper386]

Okay... I'm going to post here one more time, and same warning that this is a long post, although I tried to break the paragraphs up abit and make sure there isn't any major confusing problems but I could have missed something, bare with it please or skip it, doesn't matter. As I said before, backstab shouldn't be ICally treated any different besides if by the way it's accomplished is underhanded. In sparring you may not be trying to kill them, but you ARE training to LEARN how to kill. So things may get alittle blurred.

Now, it doesn't matter how READY someone is. They can be completely ready and you can surprise them. It doesn't have to be a cheesy, theres a rabid hamster behind you trick. It can be anything thats surprising, even flat out speed.

Last three years, during highschool, I was in high school wrestling. A few specific times stand out as being quite fitting for this. One match in paticular, I was up against someone who was from a team that was state wide known for one move, the head and arm(Can't think of a way to explain it either you have seen it and know or you don't.) Well, I completely expected it to be coming. Was told good, 40 times before the match. Watched team mate by team mate loose to the head and arm. I go out for my match knowing it's coming, about 30 seconds into the match it came. Right before it happened I knew it was going to happen. I could still be considered surprised because I couldn't do anything about it. He set it up, I knew he was setting it up, but when it came I ended up still having little other course but to try and get out of the new situation I was in. I was completely ready for it, the previous week we were practicing against this because we knew we were going to be wrestling them. I knew what to do if it happened, it was still a surprise and what I could do didn't help.

Basically, being ready for a fight, and having someone right in front of you, even KNOWING what they are going to do, doesn't mean you can't be surprised. Saying these types of things are the reason backstab shouldn't be used in sparring is rather cheesy, and rather untrue. I've had normal fighting characters that opened up combat with a slightly underhanded emote or this or that, or trying to surprise someone(When they are ready and have stepped into the ring) and it's treated no differently then any other starting move because the code is the same. ICally though, backstab is some how automatically known or assumed to be that your character is out to kill the person. Maybe if you used poison that can be assumed you were trying to kill them but just because you are practicing a surprise move doesn't mean you have it out for them. There are quite a few ICally circumstances, all of them quite fitting for any combative guild, that would constitute backstabbing. Most of them deal with practicing the motions of the surprise, getting through someones defenses, not necessarily hitting a vital spot, and certainly not trying to jab the little training dagger into the persons brain.

Sparring your learning how to kill. Your not trying to kill that person. Just like in any martial arts. If you are going full out, it's likely one or both people are going to be severally injured. Swinging an axe for someones head, sparring weapon or otherwise, is also a quite dangerous action, and probably more dangerous then a sparring dagger to the torso, and much more obvious that you are trying to do damage. The problem basically comes down to an OOC thing that you have no control. ICally I don't think it should be treated any differently, but it should also be emoted so it's known what you are doing. If what you do is considered breaking the rules then so be it. But it shouldn't be considered breaking the rules just because of a different echo. I'm not advocating backstabbing in sparring in orginizations and such, and like I've said I don't know how many times, I probably wouldn't feel comfortable doing it. Mostly because others well flip out, but also because I don't have no control over it. It can do alot of damage and probably even at the begining have a chance to be fatal, but it's an OOC concern, because ICally my characters would probably just be practicing it, maybe not even aiming for a vital spot but if they were wouldn't be putting strength or weight into the attack to be dangerous, but I don't have a control over major damage and possibly killing someone because the code doesn't pay attention to RP.

This is where a lessoning of skills would come in handy, or at least some how lessoning the damage you are doing or something. If a backstab landed in sparring for 3 HPs of damage it'd probably be treated alot different then say... 30. Then people think you shouldn't learn anything if you have it set lower, which isn't too true. Normally when first learning something, you go through it SLOWLY and steadily. You learn alot more that way. When you start getting better. Going slowly doesn't help much in getting better, but it still helps some in keeping at that same level and covering mistakes and problems you have. If this was instituted a reversed scale probably would be in handy, going slowly and being taught would start you off quickly then going all out, in the middle grounds going too slow or too fast well slow training down, and at the upper limits you have to be going all out to learn anything, but this all belongs in another thread.

Creeper[/quote]

[jhunter]

Well said Creeper, exactly how I feel about it ya just explained it better.

-jhunter

[Rindan]

The point you miss creeper is that there is a difference between being better then the guy you are fighting and surprising them, and sucking and surprising them.  The average assassin flat out sucks.  The average warrior can beat the piss out of them.  The assassins attack is completely dependent upon surprise.  Unlike wrestling that person, assassins don't even have the options of using the skill while engaged in combat.  If they could attack without complete surprise, then you could use the skill any time.  Further, it wouldn't be a skill, it would just be good weapons training.  A warrior who makes every hit land on your head is just flat out good.  He isn't using a magical ability that can only be used once every thirty seconds.  He might land that blow through skill, surprise, or whatever.

An assassin's backstab on the other hand is very specifically a surprise attack.  It flat out can not be used while engaged, and assassins generally suck at combat to begin with to emphasize that they can generally only beat a skilled warrior through complete surprise.  A sparring ring is not a place for complete surprise.  In fact, I would say that it is safe to say that the most important part of a backstab attack is NOT where the hit lands.  If you slice someone's throat or jam a dagger in their back, it will hurt like hell.  The hard part is landing such a hit in such a way that they can't react.  The hard part is sneaking close enough to someone to land such a blow.  Any idiot can stab another person.  It takes a master to stab someone such that they don't have time to flinch and make the hit less then successful.  This is what sets a warrior from an assassin apart.  

A warrior might be able to land powerful hits, block anything you throw at them, and in general land devastating attacks.  However, he just doesn't have the subtly to make an attack that won't give the victim enough time to keep the blow from being completely devastating.  The assassin's mastery is stealth first and foremost, and skill at arms second.  If an assassin had the ability to be so fast and so deadly that he could sneak a 'surprise' attack in as combat starts (IE open with a backstab), then there is no reason why he couldn't do the same in normal combat.  I mean, if you can stab someone in the eye while he is ready and waiting for you and there is some distance between you, why can't you do it in the heat of battle when he is even more distractions and has even less time to react?  If you want to beat the crap out of someone in the middle of a fight (like what happened when that person wrestled you) then be a warrior.  If you want to be able to creep up on someone and slit their throat, then be an assassin.  Simply put, opening sparring with a backstab is flat out poor RP.

[creeper386]

Most assassins should be able to land other hits in combat. But it wouldn't happen EVERYtime. Why? Because it takes time to set it up. Also, before combat starts. You surprise them, you get past there defense. At the time, YOU DON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT THEIR OFFENSE. They aren't actively attacking you. So although they SHOULD be able to still land surprise attacks, saying that they don't isn't a reason. Being in combat while someone is actively coming at you, is alot different then having the room and time to surprise someone when they aren't attacking you. There is a big difference, BIG difference between the two.

And again, the attack has nothing to do with stealth. Stealth doesn't have anything to do with it. Thats what the whole wrestling thing was for. You could be telling someone, "I'm going to stab you in the throat, right now." Give them time for that to work into their system them to get ready and everything, and still land a surprise attack. It deals with speed, dexterity and oh my god, maybe abit of diversion whichever it is. You say this means they would be able to land this hit every time that way? No because it takes time to set it up. And it has no comparison with warriors fighting. For the most part most of fight for the most part fairly. I do beleive it mentions something along these lines in the help file for warriors. Zalanthan fair may be different from our fair, but it probably means they have some basic standards for the most part. It's about the skill in arms.

Rindan, as I've said, although I'm saying there should be nothing wrong with using a surprise attack, which is what backstab is, in sparring, I'm not advocating the use or using it myself in sparring. It's a concern of the code and players mostly OOCily founded response for it. If an assassin started out with a quick surprise attack and all it said was,

So and so stabs you viciously in the torso.

It would most likely be treated differently. Even if they emoted kicking up dirt and then attacking. Sure ICally that can still be wrong, but you don't have to use tricks or gimmicks to surprise someone. And saying it's bad RP isn't the way to go. The problem doesn't lay in the RP, because I'm sure you can't think of every possible way to emote out situations, I know I can think of quite a few ones that wouldn't be taken as a bad attack, and I know I can't nearly think of all the situations. The problem lies in other peoples somewhat OOC responses because they know OOCily that skill can kill people. ICally there isn't no backstab skill. Some people may take use of quick surprise attacks, but it's do to being quick, and knowing how to surprise someone, and the only reason why warriors are better at weapons is because they are more physically fit for that, or their training has put emphasize on weapons and left them little for anything else.


Creeper who's shutting up because he's already been repeated himself and this "I'm right, your wrong." "No I'm right, and your wrong." thing isn't cool. We agree that at this time it shouldn't be used. Can just leave it at that.

[X]

Ok... now I actually have to pay attention to these debates a bit. Looking at the help file, it says absolutely nothing about Backstab being a suprise attack.

SKILL_BACKSTAB (Combat)


This skill is a generic term for 'critical strikes' against an opponent. The victim of a backstab is not necessarily 'stabbed in the back'-- the attack could be from any direction. If your character successfully backstabs someone, the target has been 'hit in a vital location,' and will be badly injured, the severity of the injury depending on your character's backstab skill level.

Warriors are trained in how to use weapons, how to attack and defend with and against various weapons and fighting styles. Assassins are trained in "where" to hit. More so than warriors. This is reflected in the skills. Warriors (especially skilled) can land good solid blows, consistant blows as well. Assassins have to execute the backstab code, this has delay as you approach the target, leaving you open for attack. If the assassin gets the shot in, good for him; most likely he will get hit before he lands the shot.

Example:
Warrior is receiving training.
Trainer: Watch the shield. Keep your attack to his head, drawing your opponents shield high. Now, with your second hand send a blow low to his legs, he's blinded himself with his shield.
(He is showing him style of fighting and weapon use)

Assassin in training
Trainer: (pushing two fingers up under the trainee's breast bone) That is a good location, fills the lungs with blood, and is a quick thrust. With a twist of that blade you do alot of damage. Or get a thrust up under the arm, into the pit. Sever the artery and disable the arm.

I am not an advocate of backstab flee backstab flee. But I don't see why people assume that backstab is a suprise, or must be. It is a critical strike. Can you use it in training? Sure.. most people will probably be edgy about taking you on in the training room, but you are not better at arms, you just know where to hit them to make it hurt.

Any imm feedback on this would be greatly appreciated, I really would prefer not to upset anyone by using the skill as a critical attack and having others view it as being missused.

[Rindan]

But I don't see why people assume that backstab is a suprise, or must be. It is a critical strike. Can you use it in training? Sure.. most people will probably be edgy about taking you on in the training room, but you are not better at arms, you just know where to hit them to make it hurt.

I think the point you are missing is that the code is set up so that it is very clearly a surprise attack.  If it was just a magikal hit you could do without any sort of surpirse, you would be able to use it like kick.  You could make an attempt any time you wanted.  If it is 'just' a critical strike why on earth would the code prevent you from doing it during combat?  Why is it that you can't be in combat in order to preform it?  Sure, it is a critical strike, but it is a critical strike that is launched by surprise.  If you are sparring someone, they sure as shit are not going to be surprised unless you suddenly jab them in the throat while they are resting, in which case your sergeant should beat the living hell out of you.

[krelin]

Agreed with Rindan.  And why does the code say "You stealthily approach your target" or whatever...?

[Anonymous]

Rindan, I could think of two reasons. OOC: Game balance. Backstab at higher skills is a pretty devestating hit. If there were not restrictions on it, assassins would make a pretty nasty opponent. Worse than the dreaded kick spamming warriors. IC'ly: They are not trained as well as warriors in how to fight. This makes them very open when they first strike. They have one chance to set up the strike, should that fail, they are in a world of hurt at a warriors hands. I would say that during combat, it would be almost impossible for them to set up the strike while defending.

As to the message, that is a good question. If it is a critical strike as the documentation suggests, perhaps it is a hold out from some of the old code. That is one reason why I asked for an imm's input. To me, the conflict in messages is something that makes the backstab skill a bit of a grey area that I would like to see cleared up. Perhaps, if it is a hold out of old code, it could be changed. Again, that is why I would like clarification.

Thanks for your input, I'm not looking for an excuse to twink. I just really would like it clarified. *shrug* Good points to Rindan, I hadn't really thought about the opening strike only. It still makes sense, but I would like to see someone from staff make a judgement call. Before some would be assassin gets slapped down for twinking.

[Rindan]

Rindan, I could think of two reasons. OOC: Game balance. Backstab at higher skills is a pretty devestating hit. If there were not restrictions on it, assassins would make a pretty nasty opponent. Worse than the dreaded kick spamming warriors. IC'ly: They are not trained as well as warriors in how to fight. This makes them very open when they first strike. They have one chance to set up the strike, should that fail, they are in a world of hurt at a warriors hands. I would say that during combat, it would be almost impossible for them to set up the strike while defending.

I think the real reason why backstabbing is not allowed in combat is fairly clear.  It isn't a skillful strike that slips past your opponents defenses.  It is a surprise attack that lands in a critical spot.  

Starting off sparring takes two steps for the backstab to make sense.  First, you need to get past your opponents parry.  Second, you need to hit in a critical spot while your opponent is moving to attempt that.  So, not only is he going to parry, he is also going to twist his body whatever way he can to throw off your swing even more.

Launching a backstab as a surprise attacks is also two steps, but these steps are very different.  First, you need to line of for a strike without them spotting you.  Second, you need to land in a critical spot.  The difference is that your opponent is making no attempt to stop the attack.  He is simply sitting there while you line up and execute that perfect strike.  Clearly, these are two very different things.

When you are squaring off in a sparring circle, the other guy is ready, pure and simple.  If you attack, he is going to try and parry.  For all intensive purposes, once you are at ready in a sparring circle, you are fighting.  Code wise you are not, but ICly, you are circling with the other guy getting ready to strike.  He is alert and aware.  If you can't slip a normal attack that does normal damage in your opening strike, you sure as hell are not going to slip past a 'perfect' strike that does critical damage.

As far as imm responses, I believe that Thaloc (or perhaps it was another imm) said that he strongly disapproved of backstabbing during sparring.  In fact, if you search out the last backstabbing threads multiple imms responded.

[Tlaloc]

As the above poster stated, I think most of us have posted our feelings about it already, in various other threads. However, I guess I'll weigh in (again) on this, to help people realize some things. I think the most glaring difference is the following:

As opposed to standard, conventional, non-backstab combat, when you try to "Backstab" someone (or critically strike them, or whatever), you are trying to kill the ever-living crap out of someone RIGHT NOW. You are not pulling your shots. You are not aiming for a 'general area'. Rather, you are deliberately aiming to plunge your dagger as deeply as it can go directly into the victims eyesocket, jugular, kidney, etc.

There is no middle ground. With backstab, you are trying, as hard as you can, to inflict some serious trauma on a person, regardless of weather or not you have a sparring weapon in your hand. You could be using a spoon, and in theory your "backstab", if somehow successful, would inflict gross injury to a person.

Sparring is not the place to practice such a skill. The goal of a spar is not to Kill your opponent...its not even to beat them. The goal is to learn, and if you seriously injure your opponent, you've now taken not only your friend, but yourself out of the learning cycle. If you practice backstabbing in a fight, you are no longer learning how to fight, you're learning how to kill very quickly.

If I'm squared off with someone, no matter who, and we start sparring, I am going to take alot of personal offense when that other person starts out by trying to visciously jam thier knife into my groin, or strike out without warning (because thats what you're doing) and try to stick it in my eye, or under my jaw.

The best assassins do not fight, or fight very little. They are set up to -avoid- fights. The whole goal of backstabbing, is to hurt someone so much that it kills them before a fight starts, or makes the resulting fight very, very, very, short.

By all means, if you feel the need to try to kill your sparring partner, then please feel free to practice backstab on them. However, be prepared to pay the price (both IC and OOC) for attempting to kill someone (most likely a clanmate), because backstabbing, no matter what, is just that. Attempted murder.

[crymerci]

If I'm squared off with someone, no matter who, and we start sparring, I am going to take alot of personal offense when that other person starts out by trying to visciously jam thier knife into my groin...

Gee, a girl can't even flirt anymore.