Mobs being cheesy

[SailorMars]

You knock a dusty, curved sword of bone from the doubled-over brown gith's hands.
The doubled-over brown gith picks up a dusty, curved sword of bone.

-----

The impression I get from Arm, even in my tender time of playing, is that using actions is frowned upon. For example, when you spar, if someone disarms you, you might emote through getting your sword, instead of spamming commands. If someone bashes you, you don't instantly stand back up, you emote through to make it cool.

Now mobs on the other hand -- see example above -- can be terrible RP'ers in combat. Don't get me wrong, the mobprogs on Arm, like most aspects of the code, are amazing. For the longest time I couldn't tell the difference between a mobile and PC. That aside, it would be nice if mobs didn't insta-stand, insta loot, etc.

Or are we expected to set up actions and insta-act to counter mob cheese? I'd rather not. I love the dramatic emotes from sparring, but I have to worry about instantly picking my weapon back up against a mob, otherwise it sure as hell will...

Thoughts?

[Swordsman]

Not a flame, and not saying this about SailorMars particularly (since it's happened a lot before now), but the whole 'NPCs do this, so PCs should be able to get back somehow otherwise it's unfair' argument makes no sense at all to me. NPCs don't ever suffer or die from link lag or link death. I've lost probably over half my PCs for no other reason than link problems. Sure, it bites, but short of some people spending an incredible amount of money, I'm going to have to live with it. Same with NPCs who 'insta' pick up weapons or anything else. I have done a lot of fighting in this game over many years. Sure, there are some times when gith or other NPCs do a basically immediate pick up (or whatever) ... but there are also plenty of times they don't. And frankly, some of the NPCs I've seen in this game emote better and more consistently than some PCs I've seen. (BTW: I've also seen some PCs do insta-pick-ups of NPC weapons after they disarmed the NPCs. Very cheesy. But I guess those people'd say they were doing it because they think the NPCs will insta-pick-up. And so it goes on and on. Ah well.)

So, my take is this: yes, annoying, but like games of chance it'll play out even in the long run. PCs have huge advantages over NPCs like being able to flee smart (i.e. when it's tactically sound, and the fleeing is done in a tactically advantageous way to the PCs), being able to shoot at them from a distance with low/no chance of retaliation (if it's done smartly), etc. NPCs are never going to be 'equal' to PCs when it comes to combat, and the same the other way around. Now, if something's turning out to be a huge consistent advantage to one side, and it could be worked around, that's the time to e-mail the imms and suggest the change. Otherwise, take it as part of the game and live with it, I'd say. All IMHO.

Swordsman

I think it should/could be toned down... I mean its a little extreme when a gith:

attacks you,
fails a bash,
stands,
kicks,
-and- picks up a disarmed weapon
....in the same round

Or! stand, kick, disarm, flee....

maybe some slow in their command use.

[SailorMars]

Not a flame, and not saying this about SailorMars particularly (since it's happened a lot before now), but the whole 'NPCs do this, so PCs should be able to get back somehow otherwise it's unfair' argument makes no sense at all to me.

Note, I did not ever say it was unfair. I said I'm forced to match fire with fire, instead of emoting out cool action scenes... However, I've seen one player who was a cool enough cucumber to emote in big fights, so that's something to aspire to...

Sorry to have brought up a subject that has been apparently discussed ad naseum in past...

[Swordsman]

SailorMars: OK, I might have misinterpreted you slightly, then (and no need to apologise for anything you've said, IMHO, not that I'm a GDB admin or anything, heh).

On the not being able to emote out cool things in fights with some NPCs, I definitely agree. But there's not much you or I can really do about that, apart from petition the imms, I guess. For myself, I just take it as part of the game. When you're fighting something deadly, it kind of adds to the gritty, high-pressure feel to cut down on your combat emotes, but not everyone might feel this way. I usually save intense combat emoting for situations where it's relatively safe, anyway, because of lag.

On matching 'fire with fire' I have to say I'd tend to disagree. If an NPC seems like it's spamming sometimes, it's no justification for me to spam combat commands (and indeed, as a veteran player of fighting types, IMHO spamming combat commands is very risky and very unwise). But I think your main point was about not being able to combat emote as much, rather than saying NPC spamming justifies PC spamming (looking back at your first post, it's pretty clear you don't like this line of thinking) ... I just thought I'd toss that second point in while I was at it. All IMO.

Swordsman

[Flaming Ocotillo]

NPCs spamming a command attack every single round is what I'd consider an overlooked bug of Armageddon. There are a lot of major code problems in Armageddon that have been around for quite literally, a decade, and they generally aren't "fixed" until some player of high standing gets screwed by one, and complains.

A fine example of this is the alledged subdue "bug" which has been in Armageddon for over ten years, where a character could draw a weapon while subduing someone, and then attack their victim for a damage bonus. Both the players and staff have been aware of it for ages; it's an issue that has been debated repeatedly on the message boards. It's only recently that a major character's death caused the staff to take a second look at the subdue code.

If you're fighting an NPC who is spamming combat commands, my advice to you is to definately use every tactic in the book to either run away or kill it, because it has a -HUGE- advantage over its PC counterparts. You can't even forego RP in favor of getting in some quicker attacks; NPCs can perform a combat command each round, while PCs are forced to wait out a coded lag period. Spamming attack commands doesn't make PCs perform any faster.. NPCs will always be quicker. Usually three times as fast on average. NPCs seem to be able to command attack each round while PCs are generally (depending on random factors, because their lag time is time based and not round based like an NPC) able to command attack every three rounds.

Yes, that's right. NPCs can command attack every round and their lag is round based, where PCs are time based with an average three round wait period. The staff is aware of it, but like the subdue-draw "bug", one or more staff members feels it doesn't need fixing, because it's been around since Armageddon MUD's conception.

This entire thread isn't an issue about whether or not a PC should ignore RP in the quest for survival against NPCs, but whether or not it is fair that a PC's NPC counterpart, sometimes matched with the same race and guild, should be able to BASH, DISARM, DISARM quicker than a PC recovers from KILL/HIT command lag. Sure, it's been around for ages, but so was the subdue-draw command, and that got fixed (thankfully). So.. what does it take to take a closer look at NPC command-attack recovery time?

[Swordsman]

Flaming Ocotillo: if we ignore the basic flaming attitude of your post and the way you managed to come up with detailed info on the combat mechanics (assuming it's accurate/up-to-date), are you basically saying that any NPC with combat skills automatically spams? Or are you saying that some NPCs with combat skills automatically spam (maybe set with a flag of some kind)? I've never run into any NPC where they were basically spamming combat commands through the combat itself. But then maybe I just haven't run into the NPCs that seem to've caused you so much grief (it's a big world). Have you tried mailing the imms with a polite, detailed, helpful e-mail about the bugs you see? Because if you haven't ever done this, then you probably aren't really interested in seeing the bugs fixed (i.e. it doesn't matter what you think the imms might think of you, assuming that you're in their bad books by the tone of your post, but if you don't try being polite and direct then I don't think it helps your cause). All IMHO, and none of this is meant to be a put-down in any way, just an opinion.

Swordsman

[Kronus]

I want to point out that a goodly number of 'major PCs' were killed via the ol' subdue-slay technique during the war between Tuluk and Allanak. Don't think that the most recent happening of it prompted the action all on its own. It was just the proverbial ocotillio that broke the inix's back.