The Long, Boring Arm of the Law

[LauraMars]

I think we should...TAKE THE SOLDIERS OUT OF TAVERNS!

They can be everywhere else but not the taverns.  I'd hate to go to a bar with a policeman constantly there.  Can't the taverns have their own security and that's it?  Yeah, it's a harsh dictatorship of a police-state but still, it seems like the presence of the law would be bad for entertainment.   Besides, I have always maintained that life is so much more interesting when people are openly committing crimes.

Let's face it, seeing some guy get smoked by the crim code might be interesting ONE time, but...if you've seen it once, you don't really need to see it again.  Having a soldier run in and kill/drag off a criminal doesn't add anything to the roleplay experience.

Wouldn't it be more interesting to see pcs hunt down the perp?  I'm not saying get rid of the crim code, I'm just saying...a little more freedom in public places would leave the players feeling less restricted by the code.

Who doesn't like to see a backstab in the middle of a crowded room?  I know I do. Well, ok, I guess the backstabbed guy isn't too happy...but only if he dies!  If he lives, then he gets a lot of attention and maybe mudsex.  Nurse mudsex.

That's it, that's all I have to say.  Talk amongst yourselves.  Try to be nice to each other (and to me too please).  Bye!

[Marauder Moe]

I think having a lawless slaughterpit of a taproom would be even worse for business than a few soldiers milling about.  Brawl code isn't enough?

[Ghost]

Doing crime in the middle of public places is not really a good idea though.  From criminal's perspective, from law perspective, and from the victim's perspective.

Yes it may be good to watch a brawl, or a duel of words or someone -chasing- the other in the tavern.  But necessarily not a real death or not a -real- fighting.

Yes, soldiers are not necessary for this work.  Tavern guards would do much better.  But still, I think public places should have some sense of security.

If he lives, then he gets a lot of attention and maybe mudsex. Nurse mudsex.

Quick someone backstab me!!!1

[Dakkon Black]

I'd wish up and try to bribe the soldier to leave. Or better yet, talk to your local templarate and cross your fingers.

Not create some OOC problem on an IC one.

[moab]

Remove the PCs or the NPCs or both?

[Cale_Knight]

The soldiers got put into the taverns as the IC consequences of IC actions. They weren't all there a few months ago.

This is what happens when people act like taverns and other public places are just as lawless as shadowy alleyways and the desert.

[Tisiphone]

I think taverns (especially places like Trader's. I mean, come on.) should have bouncers, and tavern guards, but NOT SOLDIERS. Hell, I plan to special app as one in the new game.

Though, places like the Gaj...they're soldier hangouts anyway. Sure, you'll be rowdy and brawl and even do a little petty theft there, but killing someone is just stupid. He's half-likely to either be a soldier or a soldier's friend anyway, at which point you're lucky if the half-giant can still throw you in jail after he's done bending you over.

[Red Sunrise]

Funnily enough, since guards were added to the Gaj, it has probably become the safest tavern in Allanak. Nobody is dumb enough to attack someone in the so-called "rough" bar, because there are soldiers inside and usually nearby outside on the street.

Yet finding a soldier near the Barrel or the Trader's can sometimes be a rare occurance, unless a PC templar has been thoughtful enough to put one there.

I'm all for having SOME taverns be shadowy, lawless, "go here at your own risk" type places. But things should be exactly the opposite of how they are now.

[Lizzie]

In certain areas, the tavern guards and the area's soldiers are the same people, for logical, sensible, IC reasons. I agree that in cities, where taverns are "supposedly" privately owned commercial enterprises, the establishments should be providing their own security.

But in places where the tavern is owned and run by the "powers that be" who run the entire area, the bouncer at the bar is going to be one of the areas' soldiers, assigned to that bar for that shift. It's assumed that these NPCs take time off and have other shifts, or that some of them even have permanent assignments but still take time off. VNPC guards are always present, and when there's an influx of PC visiting, it's expected that there will also be a greater NPC presence as well. That "Generic House Soldier" in the bar, that looks like every other "Generic House Soldier" planted all over the area, could easily be "the blue-eyed brown-haired man." But when you're dealing with a spur of the moment situation, or an "imminent danger" weekend, the staff just doesn't have - and shouldn't need to make - time to create unique descriptions for these soldiers.

Just assume that the "somethingorother soldier" has an actual unique sdesc, ending in "man" or "woman" or whatever, just like the other NPC soldiers hanging out in the tavern. He's one of the many VNPCs who have come to life, nothing more or less.

L. Stanson

[spawnloser]

You can still throw down a brawl in the Gaj.  That doesn't get you crim'd, but as soon as you step past the line of brawling, then you're F'd.

[Bebop]

I like what Laura is saying.  I would love to see guards walk off any temporarily disappear starting at dusk and an even larger portion disappear after dusk until dawn to account for them going home, off duty and sleeping.  I want people to be scared to walk the streets at night and for assassins and theives to have more of a domain at that time.

As it stands I love actually theiving and the idea of playing a thief but it is so time consuming and frustrating because of the crimcode.  The only way to get better is to steal and at first you ARE GOING TO FAIL.  Which means you are going to be sitting alot of time ICly twiddling your thumbs if you manage to manuever around the guards.  It's so annoying.  I want to see people get crimcoded for minor crimes alot less and PCs to be more involved in capturing and punishment.

The deserts and alleys aren't supposed to be the only dangerous places.  You have hundreds and thousands of people scattered through the city it is not always going to be that big of a deal when someone gets their hand caught in a pocket.  Currently the cities are so uniform because of the dire crimcode.  Likewise the IMMs would have to monitor thieves further to ensure nothing is abused but that ties in to my "Immteraction" thread where I was saying more player freedom and more staff association and hands on assistance to allow a more realistic feel to the game.

[WarriorPoet]

My favorite robbery scene came in the middle of the Gaj, soldiers and patrons all around. Use your imagination.

-WP

[LauraMars]

Yeah, it's weird how codedly secure the Gaj is, and it is supposed to be so rough and tumble.  Trader's Inn should be CRAWLING with soldiers, in my opinion.  And the Arboretum.  But they are not, and the Gaj is.  It's weird.  And I use my imagination plenty; in fact, I HAVE tried to rob the Gaj.  With a crossbow, Pulp Fiction style.  I was toast, of course, but because I used just emotes, my death was a lot slower and more interesting to everyone.  

I like there to be code use involved as well sometimes, that's all, instead of people being afraid to shiv a bitch  because of the immediate, boring smackdown to follow.  I guess we could emote shivving a bitch, but most would expect an emoted assault to be followed through with a coded one.  And then there would be the usual fracas from the shivved bitch re: power emoting.

I don't know guys.

[Shalooonsh]

Likewise the IMMs would have to monitor thieves further to ensure nothing is abused but that ties in to my "Immteraction" thread where I was saying more player freedom and more staff association and hands on assistance to allow a more realistic feel to the game.

An excellent idea, if you discount the reality of the situation.  We, as staff, are damn awesome.  We are on the ball, on top of the game, making three point touchdowns throws from the moment the referee drops the puck.

We do not have 24 hour cerebral access to the intarwebs, ginka, the pulse of the nation, and the stock exchanges.  Until then, you will not have a constant 1:1 ratio of staff to player to support each and every little plotline and whim.  It's just not going to happen, I don't know how to say it any softer.

We are currently trying to find ways to lighten the load on the staff.  This means less forced monitoring due to possible rules infractions and code abuse, and more ability to focus on the plotlines of our respective clanned and unclanned players.  While I am not an OL, and do not have the decisive say, I am relatively certain that we will not be adding any blanket rules to what we have to monitor (IE: thieving) in order to help support a relatively small portion of what goes on on Arm.

As for the crimcode being to swift, and too dire, I hear that a lot.  I always hear it from people who are big fans of the 'steal' (or 'pick') command as being the only outlet of thievery.  If you only use code to steal, then don't be surprised when there's a coded response.  If you use wit, guile, intellect, observation, and tactics to steal, then you can expect a far, far more interesting reaction (usually involving all of those things as well).

"When you do things right, people won't know you've done anything at all."
-God, from Futurama.

[Bebop]

Likewise the IMMs would have to monitor thieves further to ensure nothing is abused but that ties in to my "Immteraction" thread where I was saying more player freedom and more staff association and hands on assistance to allow a more realistic feel to the game.

An excellent idea, if you discount the reality of the situation.  We, as staff, are damn awesome.  We are on the ball, on top of the game, making three point touchdowns throws from the moment the referee drops the puck.

We do not have 24 hour cerebral access to the intarwebs, ginka, the pulse of the nation, and the stock exchanges.  Until then, you will not have a constant 1:1 ratio of staff to player to support each and every little plotline and whim.  It's just not going to happen, I don't know how to say it any softer.

We are currently trying to find ways to lighten the load on the staff.  This means less forced monitoring due to possible rules infractions and code abuse, and more ability to focus on the plotlines of our respective clanned and unclanned players.  While I am not an OL, and do not have the decisive say, I am relatively certain that we will not be adding any blanket rules to what we have to monitor (IE: thieving) in order to help support a relatively small portion of what goes on on Arm.

As for the crimcode being to swift, and too dire, I hear that a lot.  I always hear it from people who are big fans of the 'steal' (or 'pick') command as being the only outlet of thievery.  If you only use code to steal, then don't be surprised when there's a coded response.  If you use wit, guile, intellect, observation, and tactics to steal, then you can expect a far, far more interesting reaction (usually involving all of those things as well).

"When you do things right, people won't know you've done anything at all."
-God, from Futurama.

I would think obviously, I don't mean one on one constant observation.  I mean ease up on the crimcode and maybe slightly raise monitoring of theives as a priority.  You really misunderstood me if you think I am wanting an IMM per Player ratio.  Basically I'm talking about staff priorities and a player staff balance to make the game the best and most involving it can be.  Or maybe having guild staff monitor theives (if there is going to be a guild).  But that's a different subject.  Or just rely on player reports if the code is being abused.  

But I think it makes sense to make the streets more dangerous at night and I think that thieves and assassins should be given a few more loopholes in the city.  I definitely don't want to promote mindless killing/thievery but I'm just saying that I do agree the crimcode could use some changes and I would like to see more of a risk imposed by thieves and assassins etc etc etc and other benefits to these guilds, the reality of the game and more of a risk involved in daily city life.

And besides, have you talked to Xygax about this cerebral connection thing maybe it's doable, just don't forget a delicate inhibitor chip at a vulnerable place at the top of your spine.  If ginka takes over you might get into the habit of cutting down strangers with weapons fashioned from left over KFC bones - for their boots.

[Rhapsody of Zalanthas]

Thieves and criminal activities is actually a very real possibilty with even the current code, I don't think we need much in terms of easing up on the crimcode, considering the recent changes to NPC soldiers. The one major problem that remains though, as with many clan activities that aren't sponsored by imms (raiding groups, for example) is the lack of players willing to stick around to form these criminal activities, as well as lack of initiative and patience to make one. A prime example is the criminal culture of Tuluk which is...nonexistant, when it's meant to be a large part of the underworld there. There's been a few groups that would sprout up, but because of lack of imm support (in terms of being able to recruit even when there are no or very few membered PCs around) or lack of long-term initiative they all break apart. If any monitoring of criminals is going to be done, I'd much rather have it be done as a clan, rather than as monitoring each individual rogue out there.

As an aside, I think if there was a coded clan in place in Tuluk along time ago, we'd see a much more fleshed out criminal community as can be seen with the Guild. It's just never got around to being set up by players...

[Tisiphone]

As for the crimcode being to swift, and too dire, I hear that a lot.  I always hear it from people who are big fans of the 'steal' (or 'pick') command as being the only outlet of thievery.  If you only use code to steal, then don't be surprised when there's a coded response.  If you use wit, guile, intellect, observation, and tactics to steal, then you can expect a far, far more interesting reaction (usually involving all of those things as well).

Shalooonsh, marry me.

[LauraMars]

Ok, as I've said, I don't have a whole lot of complaints with the crim code (except for subdue, which is a different discussion).  I think it's pretty easy to avoid, actually, if you really want to.  Even (especially, stealth power) for a thief in a tavern.  Sure, you're now unmasked as a thief in front of the whole city, but that's what you get for fucking up your steal in a tavern.  Besides, everyone has a villain to hate now.

My argument is that conflict is good.  So why do we go to such great lengths to discourage coded conflict with soldier doom in taverns?  Taverns can be such happening joints, filled with players and potential for awesomeness, and most of the time, there's plenty of pc presence in taverns to deal with any lawbreaking that comes up.  From what I've observed, whenever shit goes down in a place with decent pc density, everyone is excited, off their butts, and ready to be a hero.  Do we really need soldiers in places like that?