I hate magickers, official thread.

[Marauder Moe]

I don't think you can compare spell branching to skill branching.  With the possible exception of merchants, I think there are many more spells to branch for mages than skills for the mundane guilds.

Anyway, I certainly didn't mean to imply Hymwen was a powergamer, just that possibly those results are atypical.  One might very well be able to attain that level of skill increase by spending a lot of time in the wilds, constantly using (as opposed to practicing) magick.  I could easily imagine a wilderness mage rarely having a full mana score.  I think the risk of such a life (compared to being a city-bound gemmer) is a fair price for accelerated advancement, in theory at least.  The immortals probably have a much better view of things, though.

Halaster also makes a good point.  I played my favorite mage for fifteen days (time played, not RL time since creation) before he cast his first spell.  If your mage character isn't fun to play without magick, he/she probably won't be that fun to play with it either.

[LoD]

The truly memorable mages in my mind are the ones whose personality developed right along with (or in front of) their magick.

Memorable as a player, or as an Imm?  I remember several mages from many years ago such as Ra, Dalaran, Gerrol, Shoka, Alkyone, Samah, Krysta, but I can't say that I can recall even one that had the same impact on me as a player in recent years.  What is memorable to me over the recent years are the faceless mages that dash along the north road, run through a grove six leagues from a major city-state that hates them all glowy and sparkly, or dragging people with their magicks through the city streets.

That isn't to say that there haven't been any well-played mages, in fact there have probably been several.  However, those aren't the ones most commonly felt by the players, IMO.  The 2-day spammers are the most memorable for them.  The ones that seemingly ignore the dangers of being discovered, lurking contently outside of NPC range from major civilization centers, that end up hiding, time after time, within a city-state that hates and hunts them.  Or sorcerers that crawl through the labyrinth figuring as long as they have barrier on, the several mega-powerful beings in the gameworld that would crush them in an instant due to their potential won't notice them.

I agree that the best mages are those that maintain a sense of rarity and mystery through the patience and caution apparent in their careful and thoughtful character development.  Why the people who are seemingly incapable of this and strive simply to grow as powerful as they can, as quickly as they can, are allowed to play mages is beyond me.  It is especially amusing to witness mages that probably consider themselves good role-players spam-sifting spice or moving through other mundane tasks without even the slightest of interest in creating a good scene.

That behavior is indicative of someone who is more interested in the destination than the journey.  And the world would be a better place without those people playing magickers.

-LoD

[Marauder Moe]

Totally incorrect game mechanic information edited out by Sanvean.

[Hymwen]

I had a tier 3 spell.

[jhunter]

Why is the character type that is arguably the one most known for causing havoc and twinking also the one that most easily attains the ability to do so?

Magickers causing havoc and being "troublesome" is part of the design of the gameworld. It doesn't mean that is actually what is going on -most- of the time. Most magickers I've played and played with only want to live and be left alone, any trouble with mundanes was brought on by the mundanes themselves.

Actually, the most twinking I've ever seen in the game was with crafting skills and not with spellcasting. Besides  the fact that magicker players -are- watched by the staff and those who are caught twinking usually are given a warning to rein it in or have their options removed.
You seem to be under the misconception that -most- of the magickers out there are causing trouble with others and their players are all doing as you did with your mage. This is just simply not true.

[Tarx]

Another thing is that the starting spells branch into tier two spells way faster than tier two spells branch into tier three spells, perhaps on an order of magnitude.

Well-noted, good sir.  Damned correct, too.

[Lizzie]

As a player of a mundane PC, I'll chime in on this. I branched a few very useful non-magicker combat skills in a very short period of time. Less than 2 days play-time in fact. My current progression rate is achingly slow, and has been since I started her. But, I rarely use the combat skills that come with the class. Sparring is all well and good, but that is sporadic at best, non-existent most of the time. If I had joined a clan that was more active with sparring, and had more people to spar with, it's my guess that I would be that "uber" combat character people claim can't exist in the same amount of time that magickers can. It's my guess, based on the fact that I branched so quickly with so little use of the skills the branches came from, that those skills would have been maxed long ago. I'd probably be capable of doing all kinds of serious damage that my PC wouldn't even dream of inflicting on anyone - one-shot kills, no problem. If I had spent my time skill maxing and not RPing. And my character isn't a magicker. So I don't think the arguement that a magicker can do this or that is a good arguement at all, because from my own experience, so can another class that isn't magick-related.

I don't know about the other classes since this is only my 2nd character in the game, and my first was a merchant class with little access to anyone who could help her learn recipes for crafting stuff But it's also my guess, that if I -had- access to that information, via RP or even a cheat-sheet, my merchant would've mastered it pretty quickly. IF I had spent my time spam-crafting. And if I had done that, I probably would've been rich enough to buy myself a seat on the Triumvirate, which would've made me a whole lot more "powerful" and influential than any 10-day uber-assassin magicker.

L. Stanson

[Hymwen]

Actually, the most twinking I've ever seen in the game was with crafting skills and not with spellcasting. Besides the fact that magicker players -are- watched by the staff and those who are caught twinking usually are given a warning to rein it in or have their options removed.
You seem to be under the misconception that -most- of the magickers out there are causing trouble with others and their players are all doing as you did with your mage. This is just simply not true.

Twinky crafting does not severely affect other players in the same way magick can. You can't craft someone to death or completely defy the documentation by producing jewelry.

No, I'm under no misconceptions. I never said those words that you're putting in my mouth. However, it's no secret that some do it, and the very core of the problem is that you can do it. I hope I don't have to say it any more times.

[LoD]

But your example?  Proves nothing, other than if you do spam cast the shit out of things you can get a lot of spells fast.

However I'm looking at your list, you have only 5 spells that are at mon.  That means you have probably only have 5 spells that can really save your ass or be much of a threat to another player.  (yes there are exceptions but there isn't any one shot kill spells like that)  Hmm...so do I.  

So I don't see your point.  My character has a pretty good wisdom stat, and I have IC motivation to learn more about spells.  However you have far surpassed me.  Guess I'm not hard core enough about spamming.

Proves jack shit, other than if you are a twink.  Yes you could twink it out.  Get powerful.  However twinks do that that regardless of class.

Actually, Shoka, her example proves that it is possible for one of the most powerful classes in the game to generate a fair amount of power within a very short amount of time.  She's making the point that this model is a magnet for exactly the wrong type of player.

Consider for a moment that the entire northern part of the game is a gigantic rogue magicker playground.  Filled with hidey holes, water sources, food items, and plenty of NPC targets, it is an environment ripe for abuse.  The very culture of the game encourages mages to live in relative solitude for fear of being killed.  At least, until they are able to defend themselves -- when players probably rationalize "now I can start playing my character without worrying about being killed".

Does this happen all the time?  Of course not.  Is it the norm?  I doubt it.  However, the problem is that the people that do follow this model are the same ones causing the perception of magick in the game to rise.  Whenever you see a thread like this pop up, you should realize that what Hymwen is demonstrating is part of the issue.

Hymwen's point, and mine as well, is that no class in the game should have the potential to rise so swiftly and easily in coded power without a system of checks and balances.  In fact, my contention is that magickers should take the most time to become powerful because of their potential.  This is not the case, and obviously a good deal of the "wrong" type of mages get through the nets.

There is merit to Hymwen's experiment, if only to convince the naysayers of what is possible rather than probably.  Some, like her and myself, consider it to be a problem.  Do you think that murdering someone shouldn't be against the law simply because you haven't ever done it?  Or is it something worth policing because of the people that do?

That's the type of situation Hymwen is describing.

-LoD

[LauraMars]

I agree with Halaster in that yes, mages, like ANY OTHER CHARACTER of ANY OTHER GUILD are more interesting and more rewarding if you play them as a character rather than a skill set.  That is the nature of the story we write.  

But if the staff intend for mages to progress as fast as they obviously can, why are we not supposed to do it?  If we aren't supposed to do it, why make it possible?  Why not make it...IMPOSSIBLE?  Isn't it obvious that if the power is there, people will use it?

I remember someone saying something like, "Mages have the ability to gain spells so quickly, because that is how they will survive against the dangerous mundanes."  Yet here Hymwen has posted the results of the two day experiment, and behold.  Tempers are flaring, people are calling her a twink and shooting her staff-sanctioned actions down.

I'm confused.

[Halaster]

Memorable as a player, or as an Imm?

Both, but I mostly meant as a player.

Why the people who are seemingly incapable of this and strive simply to grow as powerful as they can, as quickly as they can, are allowed to play mages is beyond me. -LoD

I wholeheartedly agree.  Any lifting of karma restrictions just because the game is ending (or a new one starting) is a very bad idea (IMO) and is the single biggest cause of the degredation of the game that is currently being experienced.

I am all about mages being powerful and having great power, yadda yadda.  But I also wish they were rarer than currently being experienced.  I guess people are playing them more, and being allowed to play them more, because the End is Nigh.  The obvious, unfortunate side effect of this is that it makes them no longer rare and totally throws things out of whack.

My personal opinion is that it should be harder to get the karma/approval to play them than it is, so that they remain rare, despite the fact that the game will soon end.  I hate knowing that the "last days" will be tainted by a vast swarm of people playing mages who shouldn't be.

[Hymwen]

That comforts me somewhat to hear.

[Forest Junkie]

I didn't make that character to become powerful, I did it to see if it was possible.

Therein lies the flaw of your experiment. You set out with an established, inherent bias that would drive you to twink as much as possible to prove a point on the general discussion board of ArmageddonMUD so that you could win an argument on the internet. *eyeroll*

I'm not playing the character any further and I consider it an experiment, so while I do know that "twinking" like that isn't a good thing, it's not like I'm doing it so that I can kill a lot of people.

We make characters on this mud to roleplay and tell a story. I am stunned that you are "quitting" after "proving your point". I find that highly discouraging as a player and rude to those who know your pc. (And yes, I DO know your pc, and I DO find that rude).

Some people twink on rangers, warriors, burglars, pickpockets, hell even MERCHANTS.

Twinking happens. If you witness it, mail the mud. If you're doing it, stop. If you think mages are too powerful compared to mundane classes, then Halaster and the other staff who have tinkered with them have completed what they set out to do.

[Halaster]

But if the staff intend for mages to progress as fast as they obviously can, why are we not supposed to do it?  If we aren't supposed to do it, why make it possible?  Why not make it...IMPOSSIBLE?  Isn't it obvious that if the power is there, people will use it?

In restrospect, it's kind of an interesting situation that developed with this kind of thing.  Long ago, it became evident mages were lame and weak.  So, a decision was made to change that, and so it became fairly easy for them to get a moderate amount of power to survive fairly quick.  This was done during the time when mages were rare so that was OK.  I think we (myself being one of the main ones) didn't really totally think how that might look if they became considerably more commonplace.

In other words, the entire magick system and method of mages achieving power was completely, totally intentional.  We meant for them to be able to branch quickly.  But it was a system designed and intended for people who were uncommon at best if not outright rare.  It didn't accomodate for large numbers, nor was never meant to be that way.  They were made powerful because they were rare.

So, Laura, I think that at least meshes the seemingly conflicting ideas?

[Mudder]

Game information edited out by Sanvean.

[jhunter]

Actually, the most twinking I've ever seen in the game was with crafting skills and not with spellcasting. Besides the fact that magicker players -are- watched by the staff and those who are caught twinking usually are given a warning to rein it in or have their options removed.
You seem to be under the misconception that -most- of the magickers out there are causing trouble with others and their players are all doing as you did with your mage. This is just simply not true.

Twinky crafting does not severely affect other players in the same way magick can. You can't craft someone to death or completely defy the documentation by producing jewelry.

No, I'm under no misconceptions. I never said those words that you're putting in my mouth. However, it's no secret that some do it, and the very core of the problem is that you can do it. I hope I don't have to say it any more times.

You can't defy the documentation by practicing magick either.
I never stated that you said it. What I -am- saying is that by your terminology, by how you're presenting your posts, it appears that is what you believe. It's no secret that people of any guild can twink out their skills and powergame. They usually do not keep any karma options for long or get any period.

[LauraMars]

Well it is obvious they're not so rare anymore.

I don't mind mages being powerful, but the rate of their progression is stunningly fast.  Like LoD says, a solution would be to allow mages to become  as powerful as they are, but make it a much more lengthy process.  Slowing down the rate of their skill progression would both discourage the havoc-inclined from wreaking such, and encourage the roleplayers to plan out their characters a little more.

I like magickal characters alot, but seeing their powers used in this way is discouraging.  My favorite magicker never cast a spell in 15 days of playtime,  until the day she died.  I think the majority of people who would be upset about the fast rate of skill progression being nerfed are those who want to use the skills for evil and want them fast, rather than people who are more concerned with the character.

[LoD]

Therein lies the flaw of your experiment. You set out with an established, inherent bias that would drive you to twink as much as possible to prove a point on the general discussion board of ArmageddonMUD so that you could win an argument on the internet. *eyeroll*

Hymwen's rise to power as an experiment to lend a concise and accurate accounting of how the mage model works is exponentially better than the players who are swiftly rising to power to twink it out.

We do play characters on this MUD to roleplay and tell a story, but the extent to which Hymwen has gone to provide herself, and others, with factual support to her claim only goes to show how much this subject is affecting people.  I grow weary of those players who defend magick for magick's sake clinging to the scraps of Imm snippets that support their arguement that "everything is working as the Imm's intended."

The Imms are referring to the magicker model, not to the current state of magickers in the game.  Hymwen is outlining part of the problem, which is that the magicker model is attractive to twink players.  Not only that, but it rewards them far more quickly and easily than any mundane class ever could -- and they don't even need to interact with anyone to do it.

The other part of the issue lies with Halaster's most recent comment regarding the rarity and mystery of mages being all by gone from the game as a result of both lax karma restrictions and the end of the game.  It is irresponsible of us, as players, to simply accept the gameworld for what it is and keep our mouths shut when we are experiencing gameplay that runs counter to the documentation, away from the spirit of the game, and detracts from the world most of us fell in love with.

Don't attack Hymwen because she's been forced to these extremes.  Instead, allow yourself to view the reasons behind the action and understand what is driving someone who is clearly passionate about the game to do these things.  Is it because the game is running smoothly and the system (not the classes) are balanced?  Or is it because there might be issues worth debating, worth reviewing, and, perhaps, worth addressing.

I actually find it rather sad that this entire issue has been allowed to go so far that players are recognizing and spending time addressing the game's faults rather than enjoying the game's many successes.

If you cannot see past the experiment for the reasons behind it, then you should perhaps consider that and what it means.

-LoD

[bloodfromstone]

I love you, LoD.

Everyone gets angry (rightfully so) when someone makes an argument that isn't based in fact or evidence. Hymwen developed facts and evidence for her point, the goal of which is not the win an argument on the internet. It is to improve a part of the game that she (and others) see as flawed. People applaud when players go out of their way to write up locations to improve the game, and they get all weepy eyed when someone devotes time to drawing a picture to help solidify a part of the gameworld, and thereby improving the quality of the game. Hymwen basically did the same thing. She took her time to do something that she felt would help lead to the improvement of a part of the game. She already stated she didn't harm any other PCs in the process, so who cares? Don't take the game too seriously. The day we're not allowed to make characters to experiment or mess around because Armageddon is Serious Business is a sad day.

[Twilight]

Having gone through several iterations of magickers and changes to them, I have to say I love the potential power of magickers.  I'm not so thrilled about how fast one can progress, or about how the whole learning system works now.  Rather than have all the starting spells have the bump to starting percentage (when did that happen, 5-6 years ago?) I'd be happy with a couple of key ones having a bumped percentage, and the rest back to where they were before.  Ones that either contribute to the survivability of the character, or directly branch to something that does.

That said, I'm really enjoying the current population of mages.  This is because until about the last year and a half, every mage I had (and I had more than a few) would meet generally less than five mages in their lifetimes.  It never felt like you were actually involved with magick, whereas nowadays you can get into things where you feel like you are.  Meaning beyond just the coded spells you get.  That is awesome.  There are actually characters in the game that are knowledgeable about magick, and you actually have a chance to meet them.  I'm sure there were before as well, but they were so exceedingly rare that even if you made a concerted effort to try to find them, you would be extremely lucky to encounter them.  This is one of the coolest things for players of magickers about the current situation.  These people exist and you could probably find them.

On the other hand, I wouldn't want the current situation to exist over an extended period.  Sure, there are things probably even the knowledgeable characters and even players don't know about, but on the other hand some previous things that were THE secrets of secrets now seem fairly commonplace.  Hopefully those all change for Arm2.

[Forest Junkie]

Hymwen's rise to power as an experiment to lend a concise and accurate accounting of how the mage model works is exponentially better than the players who are swiftly rising to power to twink it out.

Am I the only one that finds these statements disturbing? Dude, what she did was WRONG, if not worse than the asshole twinks who do misuse the code to gain power.

We do play characters on this MUD to roleplay and tell a story, but the extent to which Hymwen has gone to provide herself, and others, with factual support to her claim only goes to show how much this subject is affecting people.

What?! Are you kidding me? We do NOT make pcs on this game to play experiments and prove fucking points on the damned gdb, a DISCUSSION board on the fuckin' internet. This isn't debate class, or the senate floor, it's an online gaming community. Let the immortals pass out information in how easy it is to branch 'x' class, not some player. You guys and your arguments are getting rediculous.

I grow weary of those players who defend magick for magick's sake clinging to the scraps of Imm snippets that support their arguement that "everything is working as the Imm's intended."

Alright, I've had enough of this shit. You've had beef against magickers ever since you lost your buff warrior to one. It's time to grow the fuck up and stop harassing us players who don't twink. I've watched you make similar posts for a couple years now, and I've had enough of this. No one is clinging to "snippets" from immortal dialogue to support their argument, you make it sound as if we're trying to hold onto the last vestige of something, whatever that may be, I just don't know. You've held a particularly nasty bias towards magickers and their players, and your arguments have been detrimental to this community as a whole, for your posts alone cause others to gravitate around you due to your longlived pc's. They see "omfg lolz LoD posted he must be right" and jump on your fucking bandwagon, whether you're right or wrong, or even post concise and well thoughtout arguments (which in this case you haven't - I don't consider making accusations of "clinging to support" a very strong statement that proves any point whatsoever).

If you grow weary of us, then I am most certainly growing fucking weary with you and your holier than thou attitude. You have no idea what you speak of, yet you present yourself as the champion of the "mundane" players, the fallen pariah whom has risen from the ashes to lead his acolytes to glory and victory on the damned general discussion board.

I'm done. This is bullshit. It's annoying and making my bloodpressure rise just thinking about it. I'm going to the fuckin' gun-range this afternoon - maybe I'll go blow the fuck out of some snakes or something.

[Malken]

I wholeheartedly agree.  Any lifting of karma restrictions just because the game is ending (or a new one starting) is a very bad idea (IMO) and is the single biggest cause of the degredation of the game that is currently being experienced.

The sad part is that the "End" is not even near.. There's what, at least 6 months left now before the game ends? And there's probably going to be a few more complications, so let's just say 9 months just to play it safe..

So does that mean that the few of us who decided to stick with the mud because we were promised that we wouldn't regret it and great things would happen and it'd be exciting times to live in will now be stuck in a degrading mud where restrictions are pulled away and all the admins are busy elsewhere building the new mud instead of keeping the system in check?

That comforts me somewhat to hear.

It'd be comforting if Halaster was still part of the administration, yes... Now this comes from the guy who was probably the only one left trying to convince us that everything was going as planned and there wasn't too many or too few magickers  :?

[Mudder]

I have had spells lvl up on every cast, go from one power lvl to three or four higher in such few casting attempts. One reason I believe magickers are lvling up faster is the same reason -warrriors are uber strong. Like myself and I'm sure other magickers put wisdom as the number one priority, and I can tell you since the stat priorioty was put in I think I have played like 3 mages and put wisdom has #1 and never got anything lower than exceptional, thus making my spells go up unbeleivably fast.

[bloodfromstone]

Whoa, there, Forest Junkie. Your arguments and statements will be a lot more easily received and, well, not crazy-sounding if you don't swear a lot and insult other players.

I have to agree with Malken, back on topic. The End isn't just around the corner. It'd be nice to see something put in place to keep the game world as it's supposed to be in the mean time. I've always been all for a raw limiter on how many mages can be in the world, but that's just me...

[LauraMars]

Um..Forest Junkie...take a deep breath!