Way Overhaul

[daedroug]

Ok I haven't been too happy with the Way lately and have been conjuring up a few ideas on how to fix it. All four ideas are seperate from each other and if you decide to give feedback please make sure you make sure to distinguish:

1) when some one is in your mind typing contact with no argument attempts to contact the most recent person to enter your mind. This will make it easier to find the right mind with out having to dabble in random sequences of keywords.

2) Clothing keywords no longer apply to attempting to find some ones mind. This is not only so that people can't use the Way to find out who that dark cloaked person that tried to steal from them was but also for realities sake. There is no reason why the things that a person wears would not be anything lingering enough on a persons mind that you would be able to pick it up as your looking for their mind.

3) When you attempt to contact some one and you know their name you can go contact (Jimbo) and it will contact the person with that name, this is mostly for people that have short names or names that could be used as descriptive as well as a name such as Blonde or somthing.

4) Last but not least an Idea that i have been cultivating for quite some time, I would appreciate it if you think about this for a moment before going out on a reflex post. Basicly the idea is that each person at character creation (or some other time IG, maybe the Hall of Kings like how scars work now) You create the normal character description for your character and then create a mental image of your character. In other words how your character sees himself in his mind. (Now I'm not sure how the Staff would want to do this such as completely unrealistic mental images such as The billowing cloud of pulsating white fog, or more realistic and maybe revealing of the characters presonality such as The meek cowering elf) In any case, that way when you contact some one instead of getting there character you instead get the avatar description

Code Select Expand

contact Jimbo
You suffer from use of the Way.
You contact the redheaded hillbilly.

[Morfeus]

1) when some one is in your mind typing contact with no argument attempts to contact the most recent person to enter your mind. This will make it easier to find the right mind with out having to dabble in random sequences of keywords.

I believe this would not be a good change. There are IC situations when someone contacts someone's mind and does not want to be tracked back.

[jstorrie]

You can already contact people by their names.

[daedroug]

I believe this would not be a good change. There are IC situations when someone contacts someone's mind and does not want to be tracked back.

I understand that but just as often there are reasons for people to not want there identity known simply by Waying them, I don't see why one side gets that anonymity when the other side doesn't.

You can already contact people by their names.

I don't mean to sound demeaning but you might want to actually read the entire post before reflexivly posting about a sentence that is explained the sentence right after. :wink:

3) When you attempt to contact some one and you know their name you can go contact (Jimbo) and it will contact the person with that name, this is mostly for people that have short names or names that could be used as descriptive as well as a name such as Blonde or somthing.

[Marauder Moe]

1) when some one is in your mind typing contact with no argument attempts to contact the most recent person to enter your mind. This will make it easier to find the right mind with out having to dabble in random sequences of keywords.

No.  This will screw over mindbenders.

2) Clothing keywords no longer apply to attempting to find some ones mind. This is not only so that people can't use the Way to find out who that dark cloaked person that tried to steal from them was but also for realities sake. There is no reason why the things that a person wears would not be anything lingering enough on a persons mind that you would be able to pick it up as your looking for their mind.

I wouldn't mind seeing it done this way, but the staff allowed it intentionally, not as an oversight.  I'm sure they had a good reason for doing so (though I can't claim I've heard it explained on the GDB :roll:).

3) When you attempt to contact some one and you know their name you can go contact (Jimbo) and it will contact the person with that name, this is mostly for people that have short names or names that could be used as descriptive as well as a name such as Blonde or somthing.

How would "contact (Jimbo)" be any adifferent from "contact Jimbo" as it is now?  Perhaps you're under the impression that two characters can't have the same name?  They can.  Aside from the character name given at creation, description keywords and nicknames are no different to the code.  Such a function would allow you to tell if that name is a True Name, something which has some importance within the game (can't go into any more detail, though.  Find out IC).

4) Last but not least an Idea that i have been cultivating for quite some time, I would appreciate it if you think about this for a moment before going out on a reflex post. Basicly the idea is that each person at character creation (or some other time IG, maybe the Hall of Kings like how scars work now) You create the normal character description for your character and then create a mental image of your character. In other words how your character sees himself in his mind. (Now I'm not sure how the Staff would want to do this such as completely unrealistic mental images such as The billowing cloud of pulsating white fog, or more realistic and maybe revealing of the characters presonality such as The meek cowering elf) In any case, that way when you contact some one instead of getting there character you instead get the avatar description

Code Select Expand

contact Jimbo
You suffer from use of the Way.
You contact the redheaded hillbilly.

I actually think this idea has some merit, but it'll never happen.

[daedroug]

I wouldn't mind seeing it done this way, but the staff allowed it intentionally, not as an oversight.  I'm sure they had a good reason for doing so (though I can't claim I've heard it explained on the GDB :roll:).

My impression was that once you don a piece of clothing that changes your description it adds the extra keywords. Then the Way code doesn't distinguish between the original keywords and the ones from the clothing.

[Marauder Moe]

No, I think it was Halaster who actually said recently that they had to make a special case so clothing-sdesc keywords worked over the Way.  It was in one of the other threads on this topic.

[jstorrie]

If someone's name is also a keyword that applies to another PC (Mister Blonde, or whatever) I believe the Way is already coded to aim for the guy named Blonde before the blonde-haired, not-bald dwarf.

If that isn't what you mean you really need to clarify, though, because I don't get it.

[Halaster]

Ok I haven't been too happy with the Way lately

I have to say that quite a deal of work has gone into it over the past year or so, and most staff are actually quite happy with where it's at now.  I'm sorry you're not happy about it, though (seriously).

1) when some one is in your mind typing contact with no argument attempts to contact the most recent person to enter your mind. This will make it easier to find the right mind with out having to dabble in random sequences of keywords.

It would make it easier, yes, but it would also have the unfortunate side-effect of potentially outing a mind-bender far too easily.  I'd be against this one for that main reason.

2) Clothing keywords no longer apply to attempting to find some ones mind. This is not only so that people can't use the Way to find out who that dark cloaked person that tried to steal from them was but also for realities sake. There is no reason why the things that a person wears would not be anything lingering enough on a persons mind that you would be able to pick it up as your looking for their mind.

This was intentionally added, actually, so that you can contact someone based on their perceived sdesc - which can mean 'contact dark hooded cloak' works.  One of the reasons for this was because people could be standing in a room right next to some dude in a cloak, and be unable to contact them because they didn't know their real sdesc.  It just only makes sense that you can contact someone you're looking at, heh.  That's not the only reason, though.

[Dresan]

Way Listen skill if your in the same room. Thats all that is really needed.

[daedroug]

Ok I haven't been too happy with the Way lately

I have to say that quite a deal of work has gone into it over the past year or so, and most staff are actually quite happy with where it's at now.  I'm sorry you're not happy about it, though (seriously).

It's not so much as being mad at it but that i'm annoyed at how much it can reveal in a very twinkish way, most of the ideas were headed towards trying to reduce that

This was intentionally added, actually, so that you can contact someone based on their perceived sdesc - which can mean 'contact dark hooded cloak' works.  One of the reasons for this was because people could be standing in a room right next to some dude in a cloak, and be unable to contact them because they didn't know their real sdesc.  It just only makes sense that you can contact someone you're looking at, heh.  That's not the only reason, though.

Well I'm not sure what the other reasons but if you can contact some one by their perceived sdesc wouldn't it make sense to only see them as their perceived sdesc?

4) Last but not least an Idea that i have been cultivating for quite some time, I would appreciate it if you think about this for a moment before going out on a reflex post. Basicly the idea is that each person at character creation (or some other time IG, maybe the Hall of Kings like how scars work now) You create the normal character description for your character and then create a mental image of your character. In other words how your character sees himself in his mind. (Now I'm not sure how the Staff would want to do this such as completely unrealistic mental images such as The billowing cloud of pulsating white fog, or more realistic and maybe revealing of the characters presonality such as The meek cowering elf) In any case, that way when you contact some one instead of getting there character you instead get the avatar description

Finally this last idea was my actual reason for posting the others were actual side thoughts that had come to me while mulling over it. I probably should have posted this idea alone but it's really the part i was looking for feadback most

[Cuusardo]

Way Listen skill if your in the same room. Thats all that is really needed.

I don't believe this is needed at all.  The amount of psionic prowess a person would need in order to listen to other people's conversations via the way is too much for the average person.

[Cyrian20]

Way Listen skill if your in the same room. Thats all that is really needed.

I don't believe this is needed at all.  The amount of psionic prowess a person would need in order to listen to other people's conversations via the way is too much for the average person.

Plus it seems to be crossing into another class yes?

Knowing what I am thinking is for dragons, withered old sorces, and of course the foul benders.

[Slink]

It's not so much as being mad at it but that i'm annoyed at how much it can reveal in a very twinkish way, most of the ideas were headed towards trying to reduce that

Why is it that everytime someone doesn't like the way something works it gets the twink label?  It's a cloak people, not some magickal shroud of mystery that covers every single detail of your character.

Why should a person be able to hide just because they refuse to give out keywords?  While two people wearing dark hooded cloaks look the same in a single line of text, do you really think they would look the same in reality?  Is one slouching?  Does this one have stains all over his face?  Can you see a scar on that one's exposed hand?  

Don't you think its more 'twinkish' for some guy to keep his hood up the whole time, not use any keywords at all other than "tall" and "figure", come up with a random name that's also not a keyword and expect to remain completely anonymous while your talking to him face to face?

We're not playing a single player game and in order for there to be actual RP, interaction and conflict some concessions need to be made - this is one of them IMHO.  

If you don't want anyone to contact your mind ever, then a person should work on barrier.  

If you only want a few chosen individuals to contact your mind, then a person should learn to be more selective with your interactions.  

If you don't want noble X to figure out who the person was who just had thier hand down his pants, then a person should be more subtle and/or creative.

I think the way code is balanced correctly right now for all the possibilities it needs to cover.  While there is some room for "twinking" in some peoples opinions, there's no good way to get rid of those scenarios without taking away features that are necessary for other indidivuals.

[Barzalene]

Stuff

I agree.

[daedroug]

I'm sorry but I have to whole heartedly disagree. As it is with your hood up you can see exactly what a character looks like just by looking at their  mdesc. The reason I label it twink is not for the normal times when I have my hood up and contact you and you see my sdesc, it's for those people who 'cantact dark figure' -Specificly- to find out what their sdesc is. If your trying to contact them because you think theres some business you might do...fine, if you contact them because they seemed pretty cool and seems like some one your character will be friends with...fine, but contacting some with a hood up or a mask or anything of the like, specifically to find out their sdesc is, by deffinition, twinkish.

[edited to clarify]

[Slink]

I'm sorry but I have to whole heartedly disagree. As it is with your hood up you can see exactly what a character looks like just by looking at their  mdesc. The reason I label it twink is not for the normal times when I have my hood up and contact you and you see my sdesc, it's for those people who 'cantact dark figure' -Specificly- to find out what their sdesc is. If your trying to contact them because you think theres some business you might do...fine, if you contact them because they seemed pretty cool and seems like some one your character will be friends with...fine, but contacting some with a hood up or a mask or anything of the like, specifically to find out their sdesc is, by deffinition, twinkish.

So wait a minute.  You're actually asserting that it's completely acceptable for me to find your mind and get your sdesc if we're buddies or potential business partners, but if we're enemies or I'm trying to shaft you then I'm a twink?  Are you kidding me?

You're also saying that even though I can look directly at you with your hood up and see every feature included in your mdesc, I should still have to make random guesses at the words you used in your sdesc?

That doesn't even make sense.  If they are close enough to be -sure- they contacted the right person (i.e. they know they have YOUR mind, not some random cloaked figure) then deal with it.  If they are on the other side of the world and they "contact cloaked figure" then what makes you think they will always get the right person?  Hell, even if your in another room and someone uses "dark cloaked figure" as keywords the chances of them finding YOU are, I would imagine, fairly remote.

Do they know your name?  Are you standing right in front of them? Are you silly enough to wear something so unique you stand out in the world?  If they answer to any of those is yes, then sleep in the bed you made for youself.  If the answer is no, then your probably fairly anonymous unless someone else describes you.

Either way, I see absolutely no problem with things the way they are now and I think your labeling of the issue as "twink" is absolutely unfounded based on your last post.

[spawnloser]

No, Slink...it's a question of motivation.  If you're contacting to talk to the person, great.  If you're contacting just to get the sdesc...?  Not so great.

Unfortunately, that's what most questions of 'twinkdom' come down to.  Why, not what.

[Marauder Moe]

I'll admit I've always felt uneasy about the notion of contacting someone for any purpose other than communication.  It just doesn't seem quite right to me, and any IC explanations to justify it usually seem weak.

The only situation I'm fine with is if you're contacting some girl your character really likes and he loses the nerve to talk, as like sometimes happens with telephones (though I've never done it, I suppose I can understand the motivation).

[daedroug]

First of all I don't really agree that the mdesc should be showing when you have your hood up either, but I'll accept that as somthing that is not likely to change and I can deal with it since even if people don't start recognizing me by my mdesc they would do the same thing for my equipment.

Second of all:

So wait a minute. You're actually asserting that it's completely acceptable for me to find your mind and get your sdesc if we're buddies or potential business partners, but if we're enemies or I'm trying to shaft you then I'm a twink? Are you kidding me?

That is not what i said at all. What I'm asserting that contacting some one in the process of initiating communication is fine, thats part of what the Way is for and it's an unfortunate side effect that your sdesc is divulged in the process.
On the other hand of things, some one that sits in a tavern all day and when ever a cloaked, masked, veiled, or otherwise shrouded character enters the room, they contact them to see what their sdesc is before emmediatly ceasing, I would deffinatly consider a twink, or at the very least exhibiting twinkish behavior

[Slink]

On the other hand of things, some one that sits in a tavern all day and when ever a cloaked, masked, veiled, or otherwise shrouded character enters the room, they contact them to see what their sdesc is before emmediatly ceasing, I would deffinatly consider a twink, or at the very least exhibiting twinkish behavior

Is this really that different than a person who sits there and looks at anyone entering the room?  Your not entombed in a black plastic hefty bag, you're wearing a piece of cloth with a hood.  Based on that, I'm still unsure as to why you think people should have to guess at your sdesc if they are standing there looking at you.  More importantly, if you have your hood up for no other reason than to "hide", why *wouldn't* other people be curious as to who you are?

Re: Spawnloser

I see what your saying, but I just don't think it applies here.  The why, quite simply, is because they are curious about who a person is.  That in itself is enough motivation, in my opinion, to try and figure it out with the resources you have available.  I would think the vast, vast majority of the people who wear hoods wear them because of the weather.  Once they are indoors, they lower them.  The ones that don't are potentially trying to hide something and in doing so, make themselves targets for the curious.  Doubly so with masks because they are far fewer of them around.

Don't like it?  Meh.  Shield your mind.

[daedroug]

The Way is quite simply -Not- a means to be looking at people it's a means of communication and using it as such is using the code to get around the unfortunate (for you) side effect of my hood being up. In my opinion it's akin to people aliasing to get around the draw delay. So you can sit there and think "Oh i don't have to wait for the delay i can just go around the coded delay by wielding from my inventory" just like in this case you can think "Oh, I don't know his sdesc and I want to know it, I can just go around the code and use the Way." It's that kind of thinking that characterizes a twink.

[Slink]

The Way is quite simply -Not- a means to be looking at people it's a means of communication and using it as such is using the code to get around the unfortunate (for you) side effect of my hood being up. In my opinion it's akin to people aliasing to get around the draw delay. So you can sit there and think "Oh i don't have to wait for the delay i can just go around the coded delay by wielding from my inventory" just like in this case you can think "Oh, I don't know his sdesc and I want to know it, I can just go around the code and use the Way." It's that kind of thinking that characterizes a twink.

Your comparing apples and oranges in an attempt to demonize one point of view and justify your own.  There is absolutely no relationship between using a macro to remove/wield weapons and contacting someone via the way.  It's completely unrelated to this topic or it's discussion and beyond that, trying to polarize a subject in that fashion is a poor way to make a point.

Unless "I don't like that either" is your argument, you STILL have yet to justify why I need to guess at the obscure words you chose for your sdesc when I can look directly at you and see your mdesc.

You STILL have yet to state why simply using "barrier" isn't good enough.

Your also making assumptions that you have insights on using a *PSIONIC POWER* beyond the scope of any real life human being.  How could anyone possibly know whats actually involved with that?  If its intentionally coded that way, which it obviously is, then I think its a safe assumption that that is -exactly- how staff envisioned it should be in the fantasy world of Zalanthas.  Using it is to gather information on someone you are legitimately curious about (see my previous post) is no more "twink" than  typing "look asshat".

[daedroug]

the two actions both have the same mindset behind them, they both are using the code to skirt around an effect of the code. I'm sorry that you do not see this but in my opinion it is.

As for your second point, I see the mdesc when your wearing a shrowding article as being a description of a character that the player then has to filter out what they would and wouldn't notice, long fingers, yep i'd notice that, fair hair—probably not.

As for barrier, there are those that I want contacting me to notify me of things and it would be an OOC-driven action to turn on barrier to ward off twinks.

And your final point is "it's coded there fore it is". As many have noted before just because it can work that way does not mean that it's the way it was meant to work.

I would ask that you not post here again, your being overly hostile and ridiculing and I can see this is obviously leading to this thread being locked. You have your opinion, I have mine, it's obvious this is going no where and therefore lets just end it now.

And to redirect this thread in a more positive direction.

4) Last but not least an Idea that i have been cultivating for quite some time, I would appreciate it if you think about this for a moment before going out on a reflex post. Basicly the idea is that each person at character creation (or some other time IG, maybe the Hall of Kings like how scars work now) You create the normal character description for your character and then create a mental image of your character. In other words how your character sees himself in his mind. (Now I'm not sure how the Staff would want to do this such as completely unrealistic mental images such as The billowing cloud of pulsating white fog, or more realistic and maybe revealing of the characters presonality such as The meek cowering elf) In any case, that way when you contact some one instead of getting there character you instead get the avatar description

I still like this idea and i think it would offer a new level to Armageddon. And would appreciate some feedback on it.

[Slink]

the two actions both have the same mindset behind them, they both are using the code to skirt around an effect of the code. I'm sorry that you do not see this but in my opinion it is.

One is using a macro to skirt code, the other is using code the way it was intended to be used.

And your final point is "it's coded there fore it is". As many have noted before just because it can work that way does not mean that it's the way it was meant to work.

I would argue that just because you don't think it should work that way, doesn't mean it's not working correctly.

I would ask that you not post here again, your being overly hostile and ridiculing and I can see this is obviously leading to this thread being locked. You have your opinion, I have mine, it's obvious this is going no where and therefore lets just end it now.

Sorry you feel an opposite opinion is a hostile one.  I would ask that you not ask me to refrain from posting my opinion's which are just as valid as your's or anyone else's.

4) Last but not least an Idea that i have been cultivating for quite some time, I would appreciate it if you think about this for a moment before going out on a reflex post. Basicly the idea is that each person at character creation (or some other time IG, maybe the Hall of Kings like how scars work now) You create the normal character description for your character and then create a mental image of your character. In other words how your character sees himself in his mind. (Now I'm not sure how the Staff would want to do this such as completely unrealistic mental images such as The billowing cloud of pulsating white fog, or more realistic and maybe revealing of the characters presonality such as The meek cowering elf) In any case, that way when you contact some one instead of getting there character you instead get the avatar description

I think this idea will take away from RP by adding an unnecessary layer of complexity to PC interaction.  It seems like an easy way out for someone who wants the best of both worlds - interaction as well as the ability to remain anonymous.