What would a truly magick-weak Zalanthas look like?

[Yang]

I have been wondering lately about magickers, special apps, iso clans and all that. My contemplations aren't about Karma. They are about the seeming rise of magick in terms of the ratio of players playing mundane roles or city-based roles, versus those playing magickal/mindbending roles, and also the frequency by which the lives of mundane PCs are affected by magickal events.

I had just been asking myself, what would it be like if there was only two magickers of any given type in game at the same time. What if there was only two sorcerers. Two mindbenders? Total. The other players were focused into mundane roles. If you really wanted that magicker role, the type of environment would have to exist where magickers were hated and hunted seriously, and couldn't just remake a new magicker with their Karma.

I know this isn't how things are, nor do I expect it will be how things become. But I wondered if anyone cared to imagine with me a Zalanthas with maybe a 1:12 or a 1:20 special-role to mundane-role. How would this change the world, and would it be for the better, or for the worse? Could magick and mindbending become so rare that some PCs could legitimately say 'Well... I don't really believe that that's possible."

How would this new balance affect magick in terms of it being 'special', 'mysterious' and/or 'frightening' and 'revered'?

I'm curious as to what theories and visions we can come up with.

[Spoon]

Because I'm an off-peak player, I seriously don't see enough karma-based PCs. I've only ever witnessed about two or three spells ever being cast and I've only ever seen maybe... four muls.

So for me this would be a bad thing, but do you peak players, or people who play a lot really get sick of seeing these roles?

[Hymwen]

I think it would be beneficial in a way, and in a way not. It would make magick all the more exciting and rare, but putting restrictions on what people can play even if they have "earned" it through karma will put some people off.

To derail a bit while still sticking somewhat to the topic, I believe that there is a problem but mainly with elementalists and not sorcerers and mindbenders. In fact the problem is more with isolated PCs in general - tribals, rogue magickers and whatnot. Either that or I'm just seeing things, because for the past month or so, both city-states (Tuluk in particular) have been almost empty. Often I've been online at peak with over 60 players online and have walked through the city and checked every tavern several times times without meeting a single PC, and unless I'm missing something obvious, that must be because people are playing elsewhere.

[Yang]

These are both good points, and perhaps at both peak and non-peak times, reducing access to magicker PCs would up the number of so-called 'mundane roles' milling about in the cities coming in and out regularly.

However, the focus of my post is not a gripe about the mechanics of karma, nor how many players are running characters where, but a World Vision of Zalanthas in which magick became extremely rare. Like, maybe rare as steel?

This sounds extreme if you assume I am suggesting a change to this MUD. I am not, at all. I want to explore let's say an 'alternate universe' of Zalanthas in which magick was near eradicated from the collective awareness, or themes like this.

[Hymwen]

Well I think it would be a much more interesting world, both because the clans we have would actually be full and magickers would actually be rare and a surprise to encounter. As it is now, it seems like everybody and their aunt either are a magicker, know one or more magickers or have at least encountered several out in the wilds. Magickers seem to be grouping up out there and forming what almost looks like clans, and if magickers were a race they would probably be the second most populous, right after human and above even elves in terms of PC activity.

Without intending to bash the people responsible for reviewing special applications or awarding karma (although it'll inevitably look like it) I am given the impression from what I've seen and heard from other players that what it takes to play a magicker boils down to "have you got any recent bad account notes? No? Okay, here's your magicker". I have seen some truly horrible players that I would not have doubted started playing a week ago if it wasn't because they were playing 2-3 (or more) karma guilds and it boggles me. Oh, but there I went off topic again. Sorry.

Edited to add some more topic-relevant stuff:

I think a Zalanthas where magickers are truly rare would be a world where hunters would go out and hunt daily and be genuinely surprised when they encounter a magicker, instead of the "I wonder when I'll meet another magicker" that seems the norm. It would be a world with fear of the unknown instead of fear of the almost inevitable encounter with invisible fireball-tossing, lighthning-crapping bullies that almost any travelling PC will encounter if they don't stick strictly to the roads. We might hear a lot more "fairy-tales" about magickers because talking about well-known facts isn't as much fun as talking about mysterious terrors that your grandmother may or may not have once witnessed. That sort of thing.

[bardbard#4]

If anyone has paid any attention to any of my previous posts on any subject (which I doubt anyone has), they would notice a theme about my interpretations of stuff: interconnectedness.

In my opinion and experience (and please don't let my join date fool you), everything in the game is connected.  A change on one part of the code or policy will necessarily send ripples throughout the rest of the game world.  That being said, here's my take on the topic at hand.

The amount of elementalists, socrerors, muls, and mindbenders in the game is entirely subjective, to a point.  Some people prefer to play magickers etc, and some do not.  Some prefer to interact with magickers etc, and some do not.  Some are apathetic either way.  There are obviously varying degrees of bias and tastes among the staff -- Halaster, for instance, is a proponent of magick, having explicitly stated his like for the system a number of times (which is also clearly demonstrated by the amount of tweaks he makes to the spells).  I don't think there's anything wrong with that, and in fact I think it should be commended that he devotes such time to improving that aspect of the game.  To a certain point, it will be the staff who decide what is the fair balance between karma and non-karma PCs.  Obviously if there was a huge revolt, and everyone stopped playing because they disagreed with the staff policy, there wouldn't be much of a game to play, but I just don't see that happening.

The key, I think, is whether or not there is an objectively correct ratio of karma:non-karma.  Unfortunately, I think it would take a PhD sociologist to figure it out.  My intuition tells me the ratio is currently too high in favor of karma classes: there are simply too many magickers etc in the world.  I can't back that up though, as I haven't got the imm omniscient point of view to actively study the effects of having the current average amount of karma PCs interacting with the world.

There are so many variables here to take into account when judging whether or not  there are too many karma PCs.  Off the top of my head:

* average online and active player base, broken down into various time increments (hours, days, weeks, months, etc).
* active accounts with karma vs active accounts without karma
* average amount of time spent interacting with PCs in a city
* average amount of time spent interacting with PCs in a non-city populated area
* average amount of time spent alone (hopefully RPing...)
* average cast lag to played time ratios
* average time of karmaPC with karmaPC interaction
* average time of karmaPC with nonkarma PC interaction
* average number of karmaPCs killed by nonkarmaPCs in a given time period
* average number of nonkarmaPCs killed by karmaPCs in a given time period
* average number of karmaPCs killed by karmaPCs in a given time period
* average number of nonkarmaPCs killed by nonkarmaPCs in a given time period
* plot magnitudes (ie how many PCs involved) by karma
* plot dispersal by karma-nonkarma (magnitude of plots lost due to deaths caused by karma and non karma PCs)

The list goes on and on.  This is my best attempt, on short notice, to compile a list of observable trends in the player base.  They would have to be looked at closely, and then plotted out to find any negative or positive correlations/causations around not only the karmaPCs, but also the nonkarmaPCs.  A simple "there are too many magickers" or "there are not enough magickers" simply will not do.  

This is before even taking into account players from different time zones who may or may not want to get in on the fun.  I can't even begin to work through that one, given the people who chime in every so often and say how unfair it is that european players are punished RP-wise by not being able to play during the majority of the game's RPTs.  Is it really the staff's obligation to ensure that karma is equally dispersed through the Earth's geography?

This has been a very long answer to an interesting subject.  It's pretty much unfeasible in terms of straight on sociological study, but perhaps the staff might be open to trying different schemes.  For instance, there could be a six month period where only two karma PCs are allowed to exist simultaneously (possibly excluding desert elves since they're on the low end of the karma spectrum).  That could be followed by a six month period where 10% of the total player base is allowed to have a 2+ karma PC.  Then fifteen percent.  Then 2%.  Then 10 karma PCs.  Etcetera, etcetera.

As a postscript, I'd just like to say the thing that annoys me the most is statements like this:

"I will play almost entirely magickers."

Why?  Why play almost entirely anything?  I'm a firm believer that you should, for the most part, play your character's personality and not their class, especially when deciding what sort of class you're going to play.  If you're stuck into a certain class, that says to me that you're not focusing on your character, nor are you thinking about creativity.  This goes for every class, race, and role.  A good roleplayer should be concerned with broadening his abilities in terms of what he can play.  If everyone adopted this mindset, the player base would become much more diluted and even, in my opinion, in terms of what roles and classes are being played.

So um..ya.  

[Flaming Ocotillo]

One of the biggest problems I've seen with the inflation of magicker PCs over time, is that there are enough magicker PCs around to form entire communities that surpass the power of other factions. The vision of a handful of magickers that keep out of sight from the world is much more appealing to me, than say, a large community of magickers hanging out together and creating a society that keeps them safe from all but city-state invasions. The aspect of the "feared and hunted" magicker to balance out those guilds' power is eliminated when these magickers group up, because overlapping elemental magicks create a force so strong that non-karma guilds have little to no chance penetrating the defenses (or avoiding attacks) without magickal aid. Meanwhile, new magicker PCs get created and join these magickal communities, taking the place of magickers who may have died of the same magickal element, and help to keep the overlapping elemental "barrier" strong. In time, these magickal communities become something akin to the "Byn for magickers", where players know they can create a magicker and train up their power in safety with the team.

Sure, all of this applies to mundane non-karma guilds and small iso-groups that work together. Someone can say that communities of non-magick PCs are also very powerful, but I think the extreme power of magickers is enhanced far more once they have a safe haven of other magickers and magickal protections, being able to sustain themselves without need for food or water, can travel or teleport nearly anywhere unharmed or seen, are not limited by heights or terrain types, can see almost anywhere without risk of detection, can see -anyone- regardless of magickal or mundane concealment.. and the list goes on. Magicker communities are growing, and I feel that's one of the biggest contributions to magick becoming more and more prevalent in the present day Zalanthas. I imagine that a Zalanthas without those communities would play far more differently than it does now.

[Marauder Moe]

Didn't Halaster post some numbers a while back saying something like at most only about 20% of the characters online at a given time were elementalists/sorcerors/psionicists?

[Halaster]

While Flaming Ocotillo may be right about groups of mages teaming up and all that, I think that's perfectly "natural" for them to do.  Zalanthas is harsh, and even a mage with great power can be overcome and beat down.  Everyone knows and believes the age-old saying "safety in numbers", and it's absolutely true.  So why wouldn't mages want to team up and find safety?  All humanoid creatures are social (even those poor deranged half-elves who struggle with independence) on some level.  The want and need social interaction.  The bulk of non-mages aren't going to bother to socially interact with a non-gemmed mage for many reasons:  fear, it's illegal, culture, etc.  We (staff and players) even push the point that most Zalanthans are afraid of magick and, at best, distrustful.

Where does that leave mages? With nothing but each other to meet their social needs.  Why do they go practice in secrecy to grow their power?  Because they can't do it in the open, they'd be killed.  So we find ourselves with various groups of non-gemmed mages teaming up for their own survival and to fulfill their social needs (not to mention, they're more effective together at obtaining the necessities of life).

So in my mind, the natural evolution of most of these groups is to grow, to attempt to prosper, to attempt to go beyond mere survival.  Because of their power and infamy, the general population eventually hears about them.  The general population includes other secret mages who are sick and tired of living in fear of being discovered, so they seek out this group they've heard of.  And so on, and so forth, the cycle goes on.  Maybe they catch the eye of a city-state, to their detriment, maybe they don't.

I'm not really trying to take sides on it, just making my observations about why it happens and how it gets there.

So, until we actually "give them something more to do", we can't really expect them to do much else.  I personally think it's unfair to expect them to act certain ways, yet never give them the opportunity to do it.

I can't say I totally love the idea of some non-gemmed mage going away into some remote cave, spelling it up til he's a bad mofo, then unleashing his badassness on the world.  But I can see how and why it happens - he doesn't have a whole lot of choices.

........in my opinion.

[Sir Diealot]

Perhaps something that may be skewing the ratio of magicker:mundane roles is the karma system itself.  This is not, in any way a bash, just looking at it.

Karma is given by staff.  Staff have to watch you play to award karma.  If you are on a lot, staff has more chance to watch you play (not to mention you get more practice, experience, etc.).  So, the people who are on the most have an easier time getting karma.

Now, this translates to people with the most time being able to get to roles that are considered 'special' in some way.  So if you have two people Amos and Malik, and Amos can spend 12 hours a day on Arm, playing it up, gaining  karma, etc, while Malik can only spend 3, then when Amos gets karma there will be a magicker there..  For twelve hours a day.. spelling it up, forming alliances, finding the -perfect- cave, deciding whether the name The Purple Tembo sounds scarier than The Black Skeet, etc., because thats what magickers do...  And, so theres 12 hours where he can interact with a wide range of people, 12 hours where he can get noticed, etc. etc. etc.

So, logically, Malik takes longer to get to Magicker karma, so for those two people (as an isolated population) there are 12 hours of magicker time, and 3 hours of mundane time being logged in..  So it -seems- like there are 4x more magickers than mundanes.

I hope that made sense..  it does to me.

[jmordetsky]

I've been exposed to magickers before. As of right now, I have a 10 dayer in a mundane roll (in a kicking clan) whose never so much as seen a spell cast.

My char before same deal 10 days, light exposure to magick in terms of rumors.

As long as magick stays a mystery to majority of people it should be a mystery to I don't have a problem with things the way they are. I love when people start clambering about rogue mages hither and thither. It's good.

I don't feel we're saturated by it yet, and I don't feel we lack.

[Viagra_Kank]

I'm not sure if I'm answering the original question really...but I'll try.

Sometimes I get bored of all the magickers/nobles etc., and avoid the places that they hang out.

After that, most of the people I run into are elves, miners and hunters.  The game is a lot more mellow.  Most of these sorts of characters, properly played, are just trying to scrape by.  They tend to be less catty, less competitive, and more amicable.  

Getting closer to the social centers, one runs into spell-throwers, templars, gangsters, nobles and those kind of folk, whom all seem intent on discovering the next plot point or chasing the ever-elusive ultimate-deal which is supposed to place them firmly on the throne of Athas.

Does that help at all?

[slipshod]

Membership into these informal mage groups is far from automatic.  A new mage isn't just automatically assimilated into the group to take the place of a mage who died.  Maybe his individual personality is standoffish and antisocial.

Heck, it's not even a given that mages in the same temple are in any way allied.  I think the greatest threat to mages is other mages and intra-mage strife.

[Majikal]

Membership into these informal mage groups is far from automatic.  A new mage isn't just automatically assimilated into the group to take the place of a mage who died.  Maybe his individual personality is standoffish and antisocial.

Heck, it's not even a given that mages in the same temple are in any way allied.  I think the greatest threat to mages is other mages and intra-mage strife.

Seconded.

My opinion, if you don't like mages, help you local  neighborhood tavern form a mob and string the dirty gicker up at the nearest baobab.
Mages can only cast so fast, how many times you think he can waggle a finger if 2031939021 people are poking them with sticks?

Everyone knows and believes the age-old saying "safety in numbers", and it's absolutely true. So why wouldn't mages want to team up and find safety?

This ingenius saying also applies to meerkats, wasps, bees, dolphins, wolves, immigrants (or so it seems), ants, humans. No mage in his right mind is gonna attack a mob or group of riders unless they are ungodly powerful, and even then, that would make that mage a foolish one.

[spawnloser]

Mages can only cast so fast, how many times you think he can waggle a finger if 2031939021 people are poking them with sticks?

Um, thing is, they don't know how magickers do their thing.  They just know that the sometimes wiggle their fingers and speak odd sounds.  For all the normal populace knows, touching a magicker could cause you to have all sorts of weird things happen to them.  Superstition is highly encouraged.

[RogueWarrior]

To derail a bit while still sticking somewhat to the topic, I believe that there is a problem but mainly with elementalists and not sorcerers and mindbenders. In fact the problem is more with isolated PCs in general - tribals, rogue magickers and whatnot. Either that or I'm just seeing things, because for the past month or so, both city-states (Tuluk in particular) have been almost empty. Often I've been online at peak with over 60 players online and have walked through the city and checked every tavern several times times without meeting a single PC, and unless I'm missing something obvious, that must be because people are playing elsewhere.

I'm with you, Hymmie. Glad I'm not the only one.

[Angela Christine]

They might all be in private apartments, compounds and estates.  Even people in cities don't spend all their time in taverns.

[Hymwen]

Even people in cities don't spend all their time in taverns.

The problem occurs when noone ever does. And of course some did, but for a month or so it was common for me to not be able to find any RP during peak in Tuluk. That was a major disappointment.

[Beux]

I know I spent about a RL hour in a tavern last week, and in the space of that hour saw 4 different magickers sitting in the tavern.

[Gimfalisette]

...for a month or so it was common for me to not be able to find any RP during peak in Tuluk. That was a major disappointment.

There definitely was a lull. I think it may pick up now that Tuluk is getting some new nobles on the scene, who (hopefully) will be stirring things up a bit.

[Ardan]

...for a month or so it was common for me to not be able to find any RP during peak in Tuluk. That was a major disappointment.

I've had exactly the same problem before in Allanak, wandering between the Gaj, Barrel and Traders wondering just where the hell the other 30 odd players are at. Just the way things shift around. Sometimes some places are buzzing and others are dead, sometimes there's too many half-elves, too many half-giants, etc., etc. It is disappointing to wind up in a spot thats in the middle of a trough but you either stick it out or push on elsewhere. The one thing you can be sure of is that any particular population boom or bust in either of the major cities is temporary.

[cyberpatrol_735]

The old too much magick debate, this has went on for centuries and in the end, no one is ever right.. is there truely too much, or just right? The world may never know.

That's my 2 'sids.

[najdorf]

Everyone knows and believes the age-old saying "safety in numbers", and it's absolutely true. So why wouldn't mages want to team up and find safety?

Sounds like X-men; which makes me wonder, has ever a similar scenario been planned or occured in zalanthas (as in X-men 2)? Have magickers ever gathered with an aim to destroy entire mundane population in known history?  As far as i see, mundanes do have a great hatred against magickers, but magickers just seem to be happy with their lives.

[Djarjak]

I've kind of got a different philosophy on this.

If you go by raw numbers, there should be a bunch more elves than there are. But, you know why we don't force people to play elves to balance out the numbers? Because elves are hard, and they can really suck to play if that's not the type of RP you want.

The PC population is only -part- of the virtual population. Just like any role playing game, the PCs represent that part of the virtual population that is, in some way, more interesting or significant to the events in the world. No one wants to log in so they can spend all their IG time shovelling shit for a living, so we don't force people to play the thousands of stable hands, manual laborers, or grunt slaves that populate the world, either.

Player interest fluctuates. The first thing people do when they get the karma to play a mage is to app for a mage. They want to try it out, see how it goes, and that's the way the tumbleweed rolls.

So, just because there are a lot of -PC- mages, does not mean that they are overwhelming the IC world in true numbers. Just like because there aren't any -PC- elves at a given point in time doesn't mean the little cockroaches have finally gone extinct.

[Marauder Moe]

Sounds like X-men; which makes me wonder, has ever a similar scenario been planned or occured in zalanthas (as in X-men 2)? Have magickers ever gathered with an aim to destroy entire mundane population in known history?  As far as i see, mundanes do have a great hatred against magickers, but magickers just seem to be happy with their lives.

Muahahahahahhaaa!  Probably.  Think about what happened to Tuluk.  [Note: I'm just guessing.  I didn't play during the cataclysm (did that even happen IC or is it virtual history?)]

The problem is, though, that it's far harder for Zalanthan mages to gather than it was for mutants in X-men to gather.  The nature of Zalanthas makes it harder for them to trust eachother too.  

Allanak doesn't quite count because an Allanaki mage rebellion is quite impossible (or at least highly unlikely) because of the gems.  At best they could plot to destroy Tuluk, but I doubt the templarate would have much objection to that.