Attention Gamblers: New Kruth Game!

[Dead Man's Hand]

Name: Ascending Sun
(A variation of RL Texas Hold'em catered to a Kruth deck)

Initial Description:

Able to be played by a minimum of two players up to a recommended limit of six, the goal when playing Ascending Sun is to be the one to be closest to forming the "Perfect Path" by the end of the completion of three Arcs. The game is made up of three rounds, the first round, called the Arc of Descension (first Arc), consists of players being delt two cards and the initial betting begun. The second round (or second Arc), called the Low Arc, consists of a card being drawn from the deck and placed where all players can see, as well as another round of betting. The final round of play, consisting of a card drawn from the deck and with betting, is called the Arc of Ascension (third Arc). At the end of the third Arc, players show their hands, and the player with the best hand determined by strength of the arranged cards wins the pot. Typically, the game will continue on for a complete "set", determined when all players run out of coins to spend except one who is the winner.

Strength of Cards and Power of Hands:

Sun is the highest suit, followed by Wind which is ever-present until the arrival of the sun, Stone, which is present beneath the Sun and Wind, and Water, which avoids the sun in order to remain present. The ranks of cards are split into three tiers, Life above Truth being the first tier; Fate over Kings being the second tier; and Deceit before Death being the third tier and lowest in rank. At the end of all four rounds, when players show their hands, the winner is determined by the better combination of suits, ranks, and tiers. The strength of hands excluding High Card, along with group names for easier memory, are as of the following, from lowest to highest:

The "Steps" - made up of paired hands
Pair of same Suit
Pair of same Rank
Pair of same Suit and forming a Tier

The "Triads" - made up of three-card hands
Triples of same Suit
One card from each Tier, all same Suit

The "Towers" - made up of two paired hands of the same Suit
Two pairs of a same Suit
Two pairs of a same Suit, each forming a Tier

The "Balance" - made up of same ranked cards
Triples of same Rank
Two pairs of a same Rank

The "Harmony" - otherwise called the "Perfect Path"
Four of same rank and of each of four suits

Betting:

Before the first Arc, and after each Arc when a card has been drawn from the deck and shown to players, a round of betting takes place beginning with the dealer, determined before the beginning of the first game played with highest card. (After the end of a game, the new dealer is the player with the next highest card.) Before a player bets, s/he has the option to Withdraw, and will remain out of the betting of the round and remainder of the current game while losing all coins given to the pot prior to Withdrawing.

With an initial betting of coins, all players must either meet or exceed the initial amount. If the initial bet is exceeded, another round of betting takes place in order to meet the new amount.

The Approach and the "Weight":

Before the beginning of the First Arc, or the Arc of Descension, players may choose to have an extra round called the "Approach" which consists of the "Advance" (the RL equivalent of the Ante), a preset amount of coins placed in the pot to be allowed to play in that round. Typical with games adding the extra round are the determination of the "Weight" of the game, or the maximum number of coins each player is allowed to spend within the duration of a "set".
The original rule of betting in Ascending Sun, while more riskier than its variations, yet being more exciting and requiring larger degree of experience, is formerly called the "Path of Ascension". Players in a game using this set of rules are not limited by the amount they can bet, but still have to meet the intial bet. Also, the rounds of betting may continue for an indefinite amount, different from the "Set Path" variation which typically only has a maximum of three rounds of betting per Arc. The dealer in "Path of Ascension" will first be determined by highcard, as usual, and each successive dealer will be decided as the player with the next highest card until all players have been a dealer once, in which case the next dealer is again decided by highcard.

Variations of Ascending Sun:

The main differences in variations for Ascending Sun apply mainly to certain rules that exist, most often in dealing with the round of betting after each Arc. One variation is called the "Set Path", and is a more safer version of the original set of rules, where players must meet the initial betting amount, and if wishing to raise the amount, can only bet the same as, or double the initial bet of the round. For example, if the dealer bets 10 coins, each player after must meet the amount, and if wanting to make an additional bet, can bet either 10 or 20 coins on top of the intial amount. The maximum number of raises to the initial bet is generally limited to two, or until the total sum being raised is double the initial bet.

While there are other variations of Ascending Sun, there is one in particular, though only a rumor thus far, originating from the professed 'survivors'. This variation is said of being played with only two players, the game having a set of rules that placed a certain meaning to each obtainable hand. Called the "Deadman's Path", this variation of the game deals with the loser of a hand being forced to commit a certain act of bodily harm, the act determined by the completed hand played by the player. Losing a "set", it is rumored, has ment the winner obtaining everything from the losing player, including his or her life.



Vocabulary:
"Approach" - The optional first round of a game where players place their "Advance" (see below) to be allowed to play in the current game.
Arc of Descension (First Arc) - the second round of the game that deals with players being delt two cards from the deck by the dealer and a round of betting.
Low Arc (Second Arc) - the second round of the game that deals with the dealer drawing a card from the deck and placing it in view of all players, as well as another round of betting.
Arc of Ascension (Third Arc) - The final round of the game that has the dealer drawing a card from the deck, placing it in view of all players, and the final round of betting before hands are shown.
"Set" - A series of games of Ascending Sun where all players play until they run out of coins to spend except one who is the overall winner.
"Steps" - A grouping of hands that contain the lowest possible hands, all of paired cards.
[Ex. "I got a Water Step" or "I got a Step of the Water" meaning you have a pair of cards of the Water suit.]
"Triads" (informally called "Triples" - A grouping of hands that contain the next lowest possible hands, these of all three-card hands or triples.
[Ex. "I got triples of the Sun" or "I got a tiered triad of the Stone"]
"Towers" - A grouping of hands that are middle in strength when compared to all the possible hands obtainable, all forming two paired hands.
"Balance" The highest grouping of hands excluding the "Perfect Hand" (see below) containing hands formed of similar Rank cards with very low odds of being obtained.
"Perfect Hand" - A hand having cards with four of the same rank and of each of four suits, the highest obtainable hand in Ascending Sun.
"Withdraw" - To forfeit the current game, losing all coins placed within the pot.
"Advance" (the RL equivalent of the Ante) - a preset amount of coins placed in the pot to be allowed to play in that round.
"Weight" (or "Weighty") game - the maximum number of coins each player is allowed to spend within the duration of a "set".
[Ex. "You playing a weighty game?" or "There's a weight on the game of 10 'sid" meaning the number of coins required to enter this round of the game is 10 obsidian coins.
"Wait" game - A set played with no set limit of coins each player is allowed to spend per set.
[Ex. "You playing a wait game?"]
"Path of Ascension" - The name of the original version of rules for Ascending Sun, contains an unlimited number of raises per betting round as well as no limit to the amount of coins bet over the inital bet.
"Set Path" - A variation of Ascending Sun that has a limit to the number of betting rounds, as well as a limit in the maximum amount of coins a player can bet over the initial bet.
"Deadman's Path" - A variation of Ascending Sun rumored to exist that has very detrimental consequences for losing a hand and/or set.

[Forty Winks]

I like the "Deadman's Path" variation.  :twisted:

[Djarjak]

Too many combinations to practically remember.

I'd recommend trimming it down some. You have nearly 15. Maybe trim it to ten or less?

[Synthesis]

I'll give it a shot, but each hand is a fair amount of work, so I'm not going to do it all at once.  I'll edit the post as I finish the other ones.


My assumptions:
1. Each card in a deck is unique, and not replaced.
2. Calculations are done assuming only 1 player being dealt a particular hand. (This is done because the relative ranks of the hands remain the same, regardless of the number of players.  The only probability that will increase markedly, with respect to the others, is the probability of being dealt only a high card.)
3. 4 total cards are dealt (2 in hand, 2 on table).

I realize now that some of the "hypergeometric" cases actually cannot be handled so neatly with that distribution.  I'll get around to fixing those by hand (the long way) as soon as I can.


So far I have:

High Card - (1 - Sum of the individual probabilities of all other hands)
(You will always be dealt a card, so you'll always have a high card.  However, since other hands are possible, the probability of getting only a high card is 1 - Other. The probability that you will get -at least- a high card, when playing by yourself, is 1.)

Pair of Same Suit - 0.980
(The only way not to be dealt a pair of the same Suit is to be dealt one card from each suit: P (notapair) = 4*[(6/24)(6/23)(6/22)(6/21)].  1 - P(notapair) = P(pair). Note: This probability -does not- exclude cases where the combination of cards forms other hands.)

One Card From Each Tier - 0.480
(Tabulated every possible combination of tier deals, and added the individual probabilities of the success cases.  Yes, this took a long time.)

Pair Forming a Tier - 0.450
(This -excludes- the possibility of getting 2 or 3 cards that would also form a tier with the initially dealt card, since those cases would form a Rank Pair or 3-of-a-Rank, which are more valuable hands.)

Pair of Same Rank - 0.322
(Calculated using a hypergeometric probability distribution, with settings: N= 23, n = 3, d=3, k = 20.  Note that this is only the probability for -only- a pair; it does not include the possibility of triples or quadruples.  The settings indicate that you have already drawn 1 card.)

Pair of Same Suit, Forming a Tier - 0.130
(Calculated using a hypergeometric distribution, with settings: N = 23, n = 3, d = 1, k = 22.  This is the probability that, given a particular card, you will then draw that card's tier complement.)

3-of-a-Suit - 0.102
(Calculated using a hypergeometric distribution, with settings: N = 23, n = 3, d = 5, k = 18.  Probability only for triple, not quadruple.  Again, the settings indicate that you have already drawn 1 card.)

Two Suit Pairs - 0.080
(Took all possible outcomes, defined in terms of the pairs.  Only 2 possible outcomes result in exactly two pairs.  Sum of the probability of each of these equals the total probability.  Note: this excludes the probability of four-of-a-suit.)

3-of-a-Rank - 0.034
(Calculated using a hypergeometric distribution, with settings: N = 23, n = 3, d = 3, k = 18.  Probability only for triple, not quadruple. Settings indicate you have already drawn 1 card.)

2 Rank Pairs - 0.010
(Took all possible outcomes and summed the individual probabilities of success cases. Note: this -excludes- the probability of being dealt 4-of-a-rank.)

4-of-a-Suit - 0.006
(Calculated using a hypergeometric distribution, with settings: N = 23, n = 3, d = 3, k = 18. Probability only for quadruple. Settings indicate you have already drawn 1 card.)

4-of-a-Rank - 0.0006
(The probability of being dealt a particular rank, and then receiving cards only from that rank is P(All cards from particular rank) = (4/24)(3/23)(2/22)(1/21).  There are 6 different ways to achieve this result, so the final probability of getting 4 of any suit is 6*P(All cards from a particular rank).  You can also calculate this with a hypergeometric distribution, with settings N = 23, n = 3, d = 3, k =18 and achieve the same result.)

4 of the same Rank, and all 4 Suits - 0.0006
(This is the exact same thing as 4-of-a-Rank, since the only way to draw 4 of the same Rank is to draw the same Rank from each of the 4 Suits.)

[spawnloser]

Too many combinations to practically remember.

I'd recommend trimming it down some. You have nearly 15. Maybe trim it to ten or less?

Yeah, but it's based on poker.  Lots of us already know poker, it just has to be translated to a Kruth deck.  People that enjoy poker can enjoy this as presented...but if you start pulling stuff out, like making one hand possibility or another not represented, it'll actually be more confusing I'd say.

[Dead Man's Hand]

Something that I've been debating since you mentioned it being similar to poker, spawnloser, is of having four rounds of betting instead the three rounds after each Arc. By seperating the "Approach" from the first Arc as a seperate round, it is able to make more rounds of betting, which is also a very large part of poker.

There are two reasons of concern that I'm hesitant to propose this and one is that it makes cheating unreasonable (for those who are considering that kind of playing). As there is only one card the other players havn't seen in your hand, as well as having only a single card for players to keep track of, realistically speaking, it would be near impossible to switch it with another without some kind of cover for the switch (such as another card). The other reason is that with only one card other players don't know, it makes guessing which kind of hand other players might hold easier.

Then again, you could make it into an actual texas hold'em like style by having two cards given on the Approach, then play the Arcs, but with the current set of 24 cards, there would only be a certain level of skill needed in order to guess the hands of other players...at least so I would think. That would also create different strength and combintations of hands that would need to be calculated. :?

Ideas, thoughts, suggestions anyone?

[Dead Man's Hand]

Just wanted to give my gratitude to Synthesis for those calculations. As there can be a lot of variations that are possible of this game (it being formed from a 24 card deck, as well as having slightly different rules), even if the # of cards are changed from four to five, I think it would be fine if people had the option of which kind of version they wanted to play. So either way, calculating the strengths of hands with four cards thus far won't be going to waste.

[Dead Man's Hand]

The draft of Ascending Sun has been updated to show the now final and slightly revised draft of the game. If there are any questions that are encountered when looking over the rules and/or playing the game, feel free to PM me or post on the thread. A couple hands were removed and the order of hands organized and named to make it easier to remember. In the final copy, a brief history of the game may be added, a few more sayings and updates to the vocabulary area, as well as any adjustments made due from actual gameplay IG.

[Dead Man's Hand]

Another card game for those interested in betting with kruth cards. A variation of the RL five-card stud/draw version of poker. The terminology is very similar to the terminology in Ascending Sun, posted earlier on this thread. The strength of hands will also be the same.

Name: Set Fate's Hand

History and Initial Description:

Originating in the Allanaki war camp during the Copper War held between the forces of Tuluk and Allanak, Fate's Hand has undergone only a few changes thus far from its original version. Rumored to have been started by a mercenary band of the Tzai Byn, the game can be played with a minimum of two players, to a recommended maximum of six.

Description of Play:
Play begins with each player being dealt one card face down, followed by one card face up (the order of players being delt decided before the game by dealing one card to each player and determining the highest ranking card). If played with an "Approach", the player with the lowest-ranking upcard must pay the "Advane", and betting proceeds after that. If there is no "Approch", then the first betting round begins with the player showing the highest-ranking upcard, who may choose to pass.

After the first betting round is complete, another face-up card is dealt to each player (starting with the player with the determined high card before the game, as with all subsequent rounds). Betting now begins with the player whose upcards make the best strength of hand. On this and subsequent betting rounds, the player to act first may pass or bet up to the game's limit. The second betting round is followed by a third upcard to each player and a third betting round, again starting with the player with the best strength of hand showing (thus, the first player to act on each round may change). A fourth face-up card and fourth betting round is followed by a showdown, if necessary. Deals of Fate's Hand can end prematurely when a player bets and recieves no calls to the bet.

Variations:
Variations of this game usually change the number of face-down cards, adding further to the element of uncertainty. When playing a variation of Set Fate's Hand, it has become common to call such games "(# of cards down) Down Hands". For example, a game played with three face down cards will be called a "Three Down Hand".

[Dead Man's Hand]

Name: "Complete" Fate's Hand

History:
The first known version of Fate's Hand is rumored to have been begun within a mercenary unit of Tzai Byn during the Copper War as a manner to lessen the waiting time between patrols and skirmishes. As often such encounters came without notice, the original game was tailored for a quick series of games able to end in a moment's notice.

Description of Play:
The original version of Fate's Hand, this can be played with a minimum of two players to a recommended maximum of four. In the "Complete" Fate's Hand game, each player is dealt a complete hand of four cards before the first betting round, and then develops the hand by having the option of replacing cards once. The round of betting is done after all players have finished replacing cards (if they so choose).

Variations of this version consist of further rounds of drawing and betting up until a player bets with no calls on the bet, or all cards in the deck have been used.

Note: As the cards in Zalanthas currently are revealed when the card is placed down, discarded, or given to another character, it is smarter to draw the minimum number of cards needed in order not to give knowledge of the used cards of the deck to other players. Thus, the more rounds played, the easier it may be to determine which cards players may hold.

[Forty Winks]

[edited]Works fairly well, though takes some time getting used to the ranks.