New Page for Review - Tuluki Societal Castes

[Naiona]

For a long time some of you have been requesting a social ranks table similar to that we have posted for Allanak - for Tuluk, but it was difficult because the society in Tuluk is much more caste based.

With that in mind, I've created the following web page and am opening it up for discussion now.  Please feel free to comment.

http://www.armageddon.org/rp/tuluk_castes.html

[Dresan]

I like it, seems to make sense esspecially Master Assassins. Nice work, i always wanted to see a chart like this for Tuluk myself.


That said, social rank has always seemed to matter slightly less then actual usefulness and talent depending on who your dealing with in Tuluk.

[Cuusardo]

The chart certainly puts things into perspective, and clears up a few things.

[Seeker]

Thank you.  My only comment would be that it seems that the Merchant House Head is ranked much higher than I would have expected.  

The Head of House Kadius being superior to most Chosen?  I would have imagined them at the level of the Hlum noble, personally, or on the par with the General of the Legion.

Regardless, it is a very enlightening addition.

Seeker

[marko]

I like the table - I think it does a good job at providing a base reference but I also think it is introducing a level of rigidness that it shouldn't (and I don't think it is meaning to) and I find part of it confusing.  

Seeing commoners under the noble heading might make people think that commoners who join a noble house now change caste - when, in fact, they remain common caste.

Further, there is also the matter of how does relative and real rankings work since the table provides a _base_ reference.  I believe that's a discussion to hold after the base rankings are agreed upon.  Or rather, I'll post a follow-up later when I have the time.  

I've taken the table and rewritten it - hopefully to make it a little clearer.  

I removed the 'partisan' rank since I believe all partisans are something else first and patronage is simply a social modifier.  Patrons wouldn't take on anyone who wasn't able to contribute something to the patronage relationship.  As such, I think patronage should be left as a status modifier and not an actual rank.  

Further, I took out the reference to family merchant since it is possible that a blooded family member of a Merchant House may not even be a merchant.  Blood, when refering to merchant houses, just presents a social modifier.  A family member gains certain prestige for being blooded and even, typically, a higher initial starting spot within the family but, as best as I know and have observed, it doesn't necessarily mean they are a 'merchant.'

I've added "blank" space between each of the ranks to emphasize that the table is a base reference and not exactly how things are.  In Tuluk the society is very fluid and there are many modifiers to one's social rank on top of their base position.

That being said, here is a revised table that I will probably make more alterations to later.  

http://shadesofstyle.net/marko/ranktable.html

Thanks to rishenko for being awesome and hosting.

[Pantoufle]

Good stuff!

As I understand it, Old Tuluk's militia were entirely slave bred, creating a fanatic and fiercly loyal legion of soldiers.  Following the Liberation, Tuluk could no longer afford to limit their numbers to slave stock only and began recruiting commoners.  Despite this -- and correct me if I'm wrong -- Tuluk still breeds soldiers as well as recruits them.  I would be thrilled to see a distinction listed on this chart.  A soldier born and bred to his cause should be infinitely more valuable than one recruited, whose loyalty may always be in question.

I very much like the inclusion of the "Untouchables" caste.  They're a unique concept because they are not born into their status but rather placed in it.  It might be pretty neat (and horrible at the same time) to have this happen to our own characters.  A fine alternative to the age old, all too predictable, thoughtless and unintelligible PKill.  However, with respect, I believe the name Untouchables startlingly parallels India's untouchable caste in name and partially in concept.  There are some very unique names in game (hlum noble, Haruch Kemad, Yen-el-Tun, etc.)  I would find giving the "Untouchable" caste a designated name, differing from that of existing real world castes, befitting with the uniqueness of ArmageddonMUD.

[Dalmeth]

I never heard of Untouchables in all my time in Tuluk.  Makes me want to play one.  :twisted:

[Anonymous]

Don't think i've ever heard of untouchables myself but i definately think its damn good think to have. I think templars should use it more often, i can think of a few cases where it should have been used, and it would beat the hell out of just killing a PC but instead making them unable to show their face in public without being treated lower or equal to a breed.

[Larrath]

I really like this table.  Thanks for putting it together!

I do have one question about the Templars and Exalted rank - rather, it looks like a typo.  Shouldn't the Lirathan Sect Mistress and the Jihaen Knight Templar be in the Exalted caste directly below the High Precentor?
It looks odd to me that a Lirathan Precentor (of which I presume there are several) would rank higher than the Lirathan Sect Mistress (of which I presume there is only one).

I also suggest the Commoner employees of the Chosen Houses are listed in the Commoner caste, and the Hlum/Birthed nobles caste is merged.
I'd also expect a Hlum noble would have a higher rank than most birthed nobles, since a Hlum would have to win a Grey Hunt, which would mean they have great merit, as opposed to many Birthed nobles that can be total slackers.

[Naiona]

Good stuff, guys.  I've already made several changes to the page based on comments and ideas here, which will get posted later tonight.

Does anyone have suggestions on an alternate title for Untouchables?  I think giving them a unique name that still suggests what their status is is a great idea.

Also, it should be noted (and will be written on the next version) that there is some wiggle room in this chart.  Some nobles or templars will always have more influence then others - just because they are charismatic or have more money or are just the biggest jerk.  In addition, I put the Precentors and Inquisitors in the wrong column after I specifically listed where they belong in the text above.

In respect to the merchant house heads, I'll just say this - this is a social table and doesn't reflect 'real' rank - and money talks.

[Barzalene]

Does anyone have suggestions on an alternate title for Untouchables?  I think giving them a unique name that still suggests what their status is is a great idea.

The Filthy

Unmentionable

Unseen

The Shamed

The Facelss

[marko]

More wiggle room is better - for all ranks.  And, I think it needs to be indicated that within each rank is a nuanced spectrum of individual prestige compared to one another where people jostle for position.

I would think a better term for untouchables would be the shunned or outcasts.  I think that better reflects what they are.  Shunned from society.

[Dalmeth]

Also, I tend to think a brand burning out the caste tattoo would be a better mark instead of another tattoo for the Untouchables.  At least, make it a part of the process.

[Larrath]

I like the idea of The Unmentionables.  Except it makes it hard to tell whether it refers to Tuluk's disfavored citizens or its underwear.

How about The Unworthy, or the Sullied?
Or even more harshly, the Betrayers or the Fallen.
The Untrue.
The Pitiful/Graced (the grace is of the Sun King, for letting them live).
The Ungood.

I have reservation about most titles that mean dirty or tainted, since it might mix up with the euphemisms for magickers.



Worst case, how about the Double Plus Unloyal?

[Pantoufle]

Due to the similarity with the New Tuluk's untouchables and India's untouchables, I think any 'unworthy', 'unmentionable', 'unwhatever' is still too close.  It's just my opinion, though.

Does it have to be a common English word so that we are indicating their loathesomeness?  What about an exotic, made up word (like Haruch Kemad or Tal-Zen) but one which is horrid and ugly just by the sound of it alone?  A word so ugly sounding nobody would want to be called it yet still original and unique, rather than something common like Black Wing or Red Storm, etc.

Just a suggestion.

I think whatever word is chosen for the untouchables would gradually become ugly itself just by connotation.  By now the word hlum is likely desirable sounding to the Tuluki populace.  So too would it be the case with a term for untouchables like: Grolismec, Bialg, Ruzhni, etc.

[Dresan]

Lets give them a name with more meaning:

476 (Year 13 Age 20)
   Allanak, after centuries of bloodshed and war, launches a successful assault on the Northlands. In a series of bloody battles, Allanaki troops conquer the region of Gol Krathu. The lone surviving Allanaki templar, Elaira Fale of the Blue, is credited with the victory. However, the invaders are unable to finish the job, as Muk Utep holes up in his pyramid and an indefinite siege begins.

Technically thanks to Elaira Fale, Tuluk was conquered or at least this is what people may or may not have thought at the time.

So my suggestion is we call them:

Elairis (male) or Elairas (Female) after one of the most despicable person in Tulukian history.

[Jherlen]

If Tuluk's templars are known as the Faithful... the untouchable types could be known as the "Faithless."

Alternately, if nobles are "Chosen", the untouchables could be "Outcast".

Or... "Outcaste"? Kicked out of the caste system entirely?

I also like "The Shamed".

I agree that listing commoner employees of templars and nobles in the common caste would be better than including them in the templar/noble castes, just so things aren't misleading.

All in all a very nice chart.

[Barzalene]

Lets give them a name with more meaning:

476 (Year 13 Age 20)
   Allanak, after centuries of bloodshed and war, launches a successful assault on the Northlands. In a series of bloody battles, Allanaki troops conquer the region of Gol Krathu. The lone surviving Allanaki templar, Elaira Fale of the Blue, is credited with the victory. However, the invaders are unable to finish the job, as Muk Utep holes up in his pyramid and an indefinite siege begins.

Technically thanks to Elaira Fale, Tuluk was conquered or at least this is what people may or may not have thought at the time.

So my suggestion is we call them:

Elairis (male) or Elairas (Female) after one of the most despicable person in Tulukian history.

Totally cool idea.

[Gimfalisette]

I would like to ask for clarification on the use of the word "caste" in the text of the page and also in the rank table. My understanding of caste is that it's rigid and unchanging and separates groups of people significantly. A person can't move between castes, castes are hereditary, castes are sexually exclusive, and there are significant rules of engagement between castes. Thus there are four castes in Tuluk: Templar, noble, commoner, and slave. But both the text and the table seem to state that, for example, "Artisan" and "Merchant" are separate castes. It would seem to make sense to me for these to be called "classes" rather than "castes," unless we're really saying that there's no movement between groups of commoners, ever. (Which doesn't fit with current practice of regular commoners auditioning into Poets' Circle, regular commoners becoming ranked Merchants, and things like that.)

So, I'd suggest that there maybe be some definition on the page of what caste, class, and rank mean in regards to Tuluki society.

The text above the table and the table itself seem to disagree with one another at first glance in some cases. For example, "Artisan caste" is stated to be bards of Bard rank and above, etc.; but then the "Artisan" column in the table includes bards of lower rank.

I like marko's use of color coding the castes in his rank chart. I think that helps visually to understand things. I also agree that non-Chosen and non-Faithful members of those organizations should be offset somehow to show that they are truly a different caste than their betters. Perhaps this could be done by color-coding those cells in the table as well.

I like potentially "The Unseen" or "The Outcaste" for those who are not cast out of Tuluki society. Maybe a poll should be run for the various suggestions?

I'd like to see some kind of statement in the text on the page that while the ranks appear rigid, there are many additional factors that affect characters' relative standing, such as patronage, social network, apparent talent, etc. My first look at the table had me thinking, "Wow, that kind of rigidity really doesn't feel like Tuluk--needs more subtlety." I think a text statement to that effect would help.

I agree with marko that "partisan" doesn't belong on the chart. Being a partisan modifies whatever the character's primary role/rank is, rather than being a "job" in and of itself.

[Cuusardo]

I'd also expect a Hlum noble would have a higher rank than most birthed nobles, since a Hlum would have to win a Grey Hunt, which would mean they have great merit, as opposed to many Birthed nobles that can be total slackers.

Who is to say a Hlum noble wouldn't just figure (s)he had nothing more to do after winning the Grey Hunt?  They can be just as lazy as any Chosen noble.

Also, Chosen nobles pass on their titles to their children.  Hlum nobles do not.  I think that alone would grant a Chosen higher status.

[spawnloser]

First, if I understand correctly, there is already a Hlum noble House in game.  Figure out which on your own.  You don't have to win a Grey Hunt to become Hlum, but there is an IC thing going on with a certain Grey Hunt.  The winner of THAT Grey Hunt becomes Hlum noble.  There have been Grey Hunts in the past that did not result in the title of Hlum noble being passed out.

Second, I like "The Faithless" instead of what else has been suggested for "The Untouchables."  Basically for the reason given, that the loyal servants of Muk are the Faithful, so those that have committed minor treason, showing disloyalty, would be the opposite.

Third, Naiona, on the page itself is a typo under "The Untouchables."  In the second sentence, "much" should be "must."

[Cuusardo]

They are no longer considered Hlum nobility, as they are a Chosen House.  They did not receive their title for the Grey Hunt, but for their role in the Rebellion.

[Morfeus]

AFAIK, there is nothing like "Hlum House". There might be one single Hlum noble who has some family. The family gains from the title of its member until the Hlum noble dies, but it is not House nor are other members of the family nobles. The one in question is Chosen House, as said above.

And I agree that Chosens should have higher status than Hlums.

[EonBlueApocalypse]

Second, I like "The Faithless" instead of what else has been suggested for "The Untouchables."

I like this.  If not this, at least both could be acceptable?

[Eternal]

I like Outcaste, it does a good job of summing it up.  I'd pull away from Elairans due to the fact that it is unlikely the average Tuluki citizen knows/cares who Elaira Fale was and even knowing, would not wish to allow such a disgraceful title in their society.  In many archaic cultures keeping a name alive is a sign of respect, wiping it out from all history is the use for betrayers/usurpers.  More likely a southern scholar would know the name and there it would be revered... still there seems to be no such title in the South, where templars may aspire to such status.