Water, food, and large cities

[Kalden]

I had a big long post here, but it got deleted when I submitted and was given the message invalid_something.   :twisted:

Basically, I'd like to learn more about how Allanak and the major cities survive in this desecrated land. Some people say Allanak has 400,000 people, yet it has no obvious source of water, no farmlands, and maybe a few hundred hunters or maybe a thousand? It's surrounded by hostile peoples, as well. So, how does it support itself? I've noticed that many people wear cotton. Is that grown in the Northlands? Is Allanak very dependent on the Northlands? Where does it get its water from? How big is the ranching, livestock business when you can't leave the city and expect to survive?

Also, what is the Merchant House that deals with food and clothing, basic items. They could have a ton of clout in a world where food is precious. Food is precious in our lush world right now, even. It should be double or triple precious here.

In the Dark Ages, I'm not sure if any cities had even 400,000 people, despite the lush lands that Europe enjoyed. Starvation was a common problem there. It almost seems like Allanak is thriving beyond expectation here, and growing in a desert. Are they given water by magic?

I like how this place is set up, I just want to hear some of these things clarified, and I think food should have a huge clout in the politics or war.

The other issue of 400,000 people and overcrowdin is disease... in ancient Rome, a city to compare, thousands of people died from diseases(disease would be rampant in the Labyrinth). Maybe I'll make another thread asking about this.

[Kronus]

yet it has no obvious source of water, no farmlands

You don't stop to read the room descriptions much, do you?

[Anonymous]

I had a big long post here, but it got deleted when I submitted and was given the message invalid_something.   :twisted:

Basically, I'd like to learn more about how Allanak and the major cities survive in this desecrated land. Some people say Allanak has 400,000 people, yet it has no obvious source of water, no farmlands, and maybe a few hundred hunters or maybe a thousand?

There are farms, as someone else has said.  There are sources of water, and the number of hunters is presumably quite large (given the number of merchant houses, independent merchants and solo hunters relative to the immense population).

There are also ranches raising animals for food.

It's surrounded by hostile peoples, as well.

I believe this is a misconception.  I highly doubt that the total number of gith and elven tribes around Allanak come anywhere close to the 400k number, NPC numbers notwithstanding.  An Imm could clear that up, but if the gith and elves were anywhere near to Allanak in population, there should be a population center to represent that fact.

How big is the ranching, livestock business when you can't leave the city and expect to survive?

You can expect to survive if you don't go rushing out alone without water food and the ability to get away from a scrab, IMHO.  There are kank and chalton slaughterhouses in the game in prominent areas as well, if memory serves.  Those suckers have to come from somewhere to justify the smell.

Also, what is the Merchant House that deals with food and clothing, basic items. They could have a ton of clout in a world where food is precious. Food is precious in our lush world right now, even. It should be double or triple precious here.

Its called House Tektolnes, IMHO.  I don't know any of this for sure, but considering who guards the farming areas, I'd guess that food is a state-run concern as part of the population subjection methods implemented by Tek.

In the Dark Ages, I'm not sure if any cities had even 400,000 people, despite the lush lands that Europe enjoyed. Starvation was a common problem there. It almost seems like Allanak is thriving beyond expectation here, and growing in a desert. Are they given water by magic?

Just a few decades or so ago Allanak was in the throes of a famine.  But in-game events changed that.

I like how this place is set up, I just want to hear some of these things clarified, and I think food should have a huge clout in the politics or war.

I believe it does.  It has an even larger role in keeping people under Tek's thumb.

The other issue of 400,000 people and overcrowdin is disease... in ancient Rome, a city to compare, thousands of people died from diseases(disease would be rampant in the Labyrinth). Maybe I'll make another thread asking about this.

You know, this was a great post.  The disease point is a good one I never thought of.  Maybe the environment lends itself towards food decomposing at a faster rate than in other medieval cities so there is less time for bacteria to get spread from a rotting corpse.

Still, these are all great questions.

[Angela Christine]

In a thread entitled "Population" from December 2002;

I think people tend to over/underestimate populations, and so these figures might be helpful to people trying to envision the world. The staff sat down and worked out a list a few years ago, but somehow, it's vanished. Here's a few guesses, off the top of my head, and other staff can jump in and correct me if I'm wrong.

Allanak: 350-400k, including villages
Northlands: same number, more dispersed
Luirs: 3-5k
Tyn Dashra: 2k
Tablelands: 20k in nomadic tribes (elves/dwarves)
Red Storm: 2-3k
Anyali: 2k (counting all 3 tribes)

Around southern Allanak you can find 3 coded farming villages, but I believe these are just the 3 largest and there are a few virtual villages as well.  The Allanak number includes these villages, and the 'rinth, as well as the city proper.  

Where does the food come from?  Not so much from hunting (which may be one reason why they consider the northerners to be barbarians) but from farms and ranches.  The docs also say something abut them importing food from Red Storm East (not to be confused with Red Storm).  I imagine some of their attempts at conquest have been at least partially motivated by securing a larger food supply.  Most food is expensive in the south and there are starving NPCs around, so it looks like there is just barely enough food to go around.

Where does the water come from?  Nobody knows for sure, but leading theories are that Allanak was built over a sizeable underground river or spring, or that the water is magicked in from the Elemental Plane of Water.  The damned magickers have to be good for something, so there may be a secret chamber some where full of chained Water Elementalists that do nothing but conjure water day and night.

If you want to know for sure, I'd suggest asking a Templar IC.   :twisted:

Angela Christine

[Meep]

Taken from here: http://www.armageddon.org/general/noble.html

Rennik  

The nobles of this House oversee the villages around Allanak and conducts much of the practical matters involved in foreign affairs. The Rennik greenhouses, filled with exotic plants culled from across the world, are famous. They often send out trade missions or expeditions to sites outside the city

Since most of the villages around Allanak are farming villages, it could be safe to assume Rennik has influence exerted in the realm of food procurement, as well as some research into food and food plants given their greenhouses.

There are a few rooms coded in the south to display farming being done, a few ranches and a few farming villages. I agree that the ones in-game are probably the largest, but the south may be spotted with many more, especially around Nak... Think of large cities here in america, especially around the breadbasket of the east coast.. usually you have a really large city, then around it, larger suburbs, then rural farmland, then a lot of trees and wilderness-type areas. A good example of this is upstate/western NY.

As far as food goes as well, many cultures, pre-refridgeration, invented techniques to preserve food, including smoking, salting/pickling, curing, drying and preserving with liquids other than water, such as oil  and honey, and other foods were processed into more hardy forms.. milks and creams into yogurts and creme fraiche and cheese, and things like that.  Also, some spices actually DO retard the growth of disease-causing bacteria, notably fenugreek.

Another thing that is safe to assume is that there is a high turnover in food. In many countries other than the US, and especially in Europe, it is (or was) common to purchase perishable foods on a daily basis, thus increasing their freshness. Markets would buy the food from the hunters, but not overstock, then consumers would purchase the fresh meat from the markets, on a day-to-day basis. That way, both the stock and what was purchased was kept fresh, and the merchants were able to preserve what was left over into a less-perishable form (i.e. curing leftover meats).

Someone else, I think it was AC, said that maggots were also rife but they, in their way, also helped keep meats semi-fresh since they would eat off the top layers of the less-fresh meat.

Keep in mind that it's also possible that there is a large amount of things like worms, grubs and insects of smaller size being consumed because they are so plentiful.. especially in the south. (They are consumed here too. My bf's friend who is touring the world just sent him a can of silkworm pupa in soy sauce.) Owning a grub or insect farm wouldn't be too hard. Just feed them scraps of fruits and plants, possibly even cast-offs from farming other animals and plants.

It's also a good idea to re-think eating habits too, when you're discussing areas that aren't or weren't lands of plenty. In most civilized, ancient cultures, only the rich really had enough resources to feast daily. Most laborers ate a very light breakfast.. maybe a slice of bread made the day before and a little water. Then for a dinner, they would sometimes have things like porridge or gruel, or rice.. veggies when they could get them and meat, eggs and cheese when they could afford them. Farmers tended to be able to provide more for themselves than laborers, but much of their yield was also turned over and sold. In many cultures, meat was considered a luxury and served as a side-dish alongside a staple grain. Pasta was actually peasant food! As was rice and most grain cereals besides just wheat, like millet, rye and spelt.

Also, nomadic tribes would sometimes herd their own animals which were used for food and trade. Many middle-eastern nomadic cultures were not so to raid and hunt, but to follow and herd their animals to better grazing grounds.

Just keep in mind that while most of the known world is a desert environment and it is hard for life to flourish, it isn't exactly barren. Many animals and plants have adapted to the environment and while it isn't a jungle.. there is still plenty of resources for those that are able to learn how to use them. (Don't believe me? Take a look at the rdescs in the salt-flats someday. While it is covered in SALT, there are still a few plants that survive there.)

The desert isnt as deserty as you think, south of that rock-road that heads west of Allanak, are 'arid fields' not like rolling dunes, I picture just dry extensive fields, kinda like the high-deserts of California and Nevada, not the Saharah.

It says somewhere... but I forget, that Allanak imports alot of grain from the Sandlord, and Red Storm East was founded by rebelious farmers, so they probably still farm out there. Then there is the elementalist factor. A whole quarter of the city devoted to people that can make stuff from nothing.

Then there is the dragon temple. 40 sids for a gallon of water? people can probably make a gallon go far.

I think the situation on Zalanthas is bleak, but not the extent where survival is impossible without divine intervention. There is natural water sources in the world, and magical, and im sure if all of a sudden people started falling over in the streets from hunger and thirst that Tektolnes would get off his ass and do something. An evil tyrant is nothing without his subjects.

Then of course there are the virtual houses, one of which is Rennik that deals in the chalton, lizard, and all that type of food.

Just my thoughts.

[SwanSwanHummingbird]

Rome had around a million people at it's height.

Of course...that's -Rome-, and it wasn't in a desert.

[Kharun]

Ave' Caesar Neru!
Viva Roma Mater!
Vive Imperium Romanum!