Should Guards be rotated?

[John]

This was raised elsewhere and I was wondering if guards SHOULD be rotated. The advantage is that it'll give thieves a chance to break into places. Disadvantage is it'd be WAY too easy to twink out with. These guards are highly trained, they're going to notice someone sneaking in when the shifts rotate.

So what does everyone think?

[Anonymous]

I don't like this.  Considering we already have thieves who blatantly ignore VNPCs or know which section of what location they are more likely to get away with a given action, I don't think they need any more help.  Its really pretty easy to avoid getting caught all the time, IMHO.

Not to mention I'm not exactly sure how the changing of guards will translate into anything like a chance for escape/breaking in for the thief in question.  Its not like the guards guarding a current location -leave- before the other guards show up.

[Reiloth]

I agreed with this (Guards should be roatated) because I would think it would be easier for thieves to break-and-enter in that SMALL window of opportunity, of guards rotating. It would be extremely hard, but as I think of it, add a little bit of flavor to a dish that no one wants to order.

The guards may be guarding an entrance, but if they were changing shifts, they aren't shoulder to shoulder. there would be a good minute (Or more, depending on the security of the establishment) where a thief could pick a lock or climb a wall..ect.

[Carnage]

No. If you've got an important mission to break into the compound for whatever reason, e-mail the MUD and start planning. Otherwise, IRC is going to be flooded with messages back and forth about the pattern of guard rotations, and noble houses are going to be looted every few minutes.

[John]

I'm in two minds about this idea (I don't agree with the fact it shouldn't because people will spread OOC knowledge though (I'm an eternal optimist and would like to think people wouldn't do that)). I would like to see security in places beefed up a bit actually. I think there should be guards that circle the permiter of compounds. This would make climbing walls and hopping over a bit harder, but it'd also require planning  and good knowledge to successfully do. At the moment (AFAIK) all a burglar needs to do is climb the wall and then they're into the compound if they avoid any buildings with guards guarding the entrance. It'd be DEAD easy to create a script for it too.

[crymerci]

My impression (which may be wrong) is that NPC guards generally represent a force of virtual guards. Sure, it's possible that all of these elite, highly-trained guards have their back turned at the same time, but really, how likely is that?

[Carnage]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but people spread around tons of OOC information. Making compounds lootable is not only asking for trouble, but illogical. Let's take a noble house.

Okay, you manage to get in. You're walking through the hallways, nobody's bothering you. Oh. Wait. The hallways are filled with VNPCs, and you don't have uniform nor are with a noble/high ranking person. The code's not going to be able to simulate that.

Second, there are GUARDS within the barracks to make sure nobody loots the lockers dry, and it's also filled with VNPCs who'll notice you going through their PC buddies lockers. The armory and any place where high-quality loot is held is also going to be crawling with guards, even moreso.

Third, VNPCs and NPCs aren't going to do anything if there's an intruder in the compound. My PC once caught a thief within (using shadow and sneak/hide to evade capture and follow in, another thing that I see as abuse since the guards are using scan) and attacked them with everything he had. They don't let outsiders into compounds for good reason, even with a regular member. They could overhear an important secret, or make a blueprint of the place and sell it off to a Rinth rat. Now you've found some thief skulking around who's taken who knows what and has overheard possibly deep secrets of the house. Gotta silence 'em somehow, and that's the cheapest/most effective way.

Breaking into a noble house isn't easy. While I agree, there should be circumstances (i.e. you managed to somehow get a uniform and can blend in as a sergeant), these are best handled with immortals and worked out into plotlines.

[John]

I still am in two minds about whether or not gate guards should be rotated. Also, as it stands it's pretty easy to break into a compound. Wait until someone who works there wants to go in and shadow them.

A way to make these places harder to loot would be having an NPC or two walking up and down the halls. As it stands if I had the climb skill pretty advanced and I had sneak as even semi okay, I could break into any compound I wanted too. And this is pretty unrealistic considering these places would have VNPC guards patrolling the compounds wouldn't it? What I'm saying is turn some of these VNPCs into NPCs and have them work in shifts around the permiter (not even doorway or gate guards, just perimeter ones).

[Marc]

I like the idea of rotating guards, but only if it brings a compound alive, not make a window for a thief.

All the guards don't have to switch at the same time.  Some posts could only be relieved when the sentry was replaced (Go Kubrick!).  There could be patrols in the courtyard.  Patrols in the halls.  More sentries, etc.

With all the above, I think it's a great idea.  Make those compounds feel as big as they are.

And thats exactly what I don't like currently.  One gateway leading into most compounds.  The walls are unscaleable.  No windows, no servant/slave doors.  Nothing.  Just a couple heavily guarded doorways and a super lush interior (this is based off the few estates I have been lucky enough to see).

On the other hand, to just "remove the guards" for X amount of time for a "shift change" gets a big thumbs down.

[creeper386]

Acctually, I think a rotation of guards and such would be a good thing, and of course NPC guards to represent a population of vNPC guards that aren't doing their job.

Along with this, I think a rotation of NPCs in general would be a good idea, I have week schedule worked out in the different bars, having shifts and what not. Give alittle flavor to merchants, maybe even closing them for an hour or two at night. Although alot of business is still getting done, a busy shop in the least would need to close down to take a look at what they have and how business is doing. Deposit money wherever they deposit it and so on and so forth. Even with multiple shifts for a place it's unreasonable to say they stay open all night unless they are a tavern and such what not you know?

Creeper

[Glowworm]

I'm against this, because I don't think it's necessary.  Burgling a well established house should require a lot more planning than just what rotation the gate guards are on.

How do you plan on avoiding all the virtual guards _inside_ the compound?  

What are you trying to steal? (If you have put a lot of resources and time into planning, you better be going for something specific instead of just picking up the cheap suits of armor and silk clothing you might happen upon)

How do you plan on getting out with your loot?

When you've done your research and answered all these questions realistically, have you tried mailing the clan IMM detailing your plan and asking for assistance? (Yes, the clan IMM might actually allow you to break in if you have a well-thought plan.  I've seen it done.)

[Carnage]

I still am in two minds about whether or not gate guards should be rotated. Also, as it stands it's pretty easy to break into a compound. Wait until someone who works there wants to go in and shadow them.

John, that's abusing the code. The gate guard is using scan and can see you when you're hidden, but the code considers shadow to be like follow, so the guard's AI is tricked into thinking you're with the person. ICly, you're not right beside them. You're most likely skulking a distance away. Not only that, you haven't factored in any of my other considerations about VNPCs in the hallway and the like.

Nobody has addressed the points I brought up in my last post. These places are filled with combat-ready guards that are being paid to watch out for Rinthi punks. There's not much of a chance of you evading capture for long.

[John]

John, that's abusing the code.

I know it is. I was just saying the current system is just easy to abuse as a system where the guards are rotated. (wasn't saying people SHOULD do that).

Nobody has addressed the points I brought up in my last post. These places are filled with combat-ready guards that are being paid to watch out for Rinthi punks.

Actually I did. I said code some of the VNPC guards to NPC ones. That way door guards won't be forced to deal with people who are breaking into the place. Because realistically a door-guard isn't going to leave the door, or else anyone can walk through it.

[Tlaloc]

Guards *do* rotate out, though only virtually. As someone above posted, the guards you see are only a virtual representation of the actual guards that are standing there. You just happened to catch them at thier shift.

If I was going to plan a break-in of a compound, I would email my clan imm, the clan immortal of the compound you're breaking into, and the mud to notify them of your intentions. Then I would spend a long time planning the raid, trying to get the layout of the compound from various sources, and spend a long time watching the gates of the compound to figure out the shift rotations - think about each of the guards...get to know them, 'think' alot. Logging this process helps alot. Once you've spent a few weeks figuring out everything you think you need to know about breaking into a compound, I would email the mud, and the imms involved once again, letting them know about what all you've done, IC, and when you plan on doing the burglary - give them a good deal of fair warning. "I'm about to try to break into the Tennishi compound, just thought you'd like to know' probably won't cut it.

If you're nice enough, and have done a good enough job, theres a good chance that the various immortals involved might actually help you with an actual shift-change. However, be prepared, and warned: just because you get help, doesn't mean that your character hasn't made an incredible mistake of some kind. Don't be surprised if you get caught and/or killed, even though someone helped you with the break-in. You character could get two steps into the door, and get caught by the second group of guards who were on a staggered shift-rotation, and get pinched. Or, you might get lucky. Either way, we are not trying to Eat Your Brainz if you get caught...just bare in mind that you might have overlooked something, or just aren't aware of the full scope of the situation.

Also, immortals might just feel like making the life of your PC interesting - which I think is fair, considering you're planning on robbing the compound of thier clan, and thus are attempting to make the lives of an entire clan interesting.

I think, though, people should keep in mind the realism of such an act: breaking into a noble, or merchant household to steal shit should be the heist of a lifetime. As previous posters have said: Sure, you might be able to get past the gate guards...but what about the guards inside? I think a burglar who was serious about trying to pull off this job without getting caught would not only require alot of time and planning, but also alot of information, help and possibly, economic backing.

Basically: try to think about what would be required to break into some place like the White House, and go from there. Likely, you'd need to find yourself an insider, or become one yourself to learn the ins and outs of the place. You'd have to learn the names, habbits, movements, and personalities of ALL of the guards and employees of the house. You'd have to learn which of the stairs in foyer creek on the way up to the main bedchambers on the second floor, and which are good enough to stomp on hard without causing a noise. You'd have to learn if Noble Snoozypants is a light sleeper, or if he sleeps nearly comatose. You'll have to learn which guards can be bribed to look the other way, and which you'll have to quietly get rid of.

Assuming you somehow do it all, you then have to figure out what your'e going to do with all the crap you just stole. Stealing Lord Snoozypants's favorite silver dagger is one thing: but how the hell are you going to offload such a prize without calling attention to yourself?

Just a few thoughts:
-Tlaloc

[Carnage]

Actually I did. I said code some of the VNPC guards to NPC ones. That way door guards won't be forced to deal with people who are breaking into the place. Because realistically a door-guard isn't going to leave the door, or else anyone can walk through it.

All right, John. Why don't you summarize how their script would work? Will they kill everybody in sight not a member of the house? Or just toss them flat out on their rears outside. What happens if it's a guest that's being trusted to leave, then? Do they get hurled out? Or if they unhitch themselves for a moment because the person they're following is going into someplace private.

The code isn't there to babysit the players and make sure they don't abuse something. It's to reinforce roleplay. However, it can only go so far, and this guard program is as far as it can go. Players have a responsibility to roleplay things out and are expected to have a certain level of maturity not to abuse the game.

The best way I would handle it is set up an alarm on the door, so any non-member goes through, the clan imm gets alerted. However, the imm isn't always around, so that doesn't necessarily work.

[Lazloth]

The code isn't there to babysit the players and make sure they don't abuse something. It's to reinforce roleplay.

With the amount of simple room-echoes being introduced left & right, I think some entrepreneurial family members and clan leaders might take the time out to generate a few strings that grant a given compound a bit of depth.

[John]

All right, John. Why don't you summarize how their script would work? What happens if it's a guest that's being trusted to leave, then? Do they get hurled out? Or if they unhitch themselves for a moment because the person they're following is going into someplace private.

They're all very good questions. I haven't had _too_ much experience with this, but from the experience I did have, guests aren't allowed to walk around the compound and do whatever they like, and when a guest was left by themselves, they pretty much had to stay in the one room, they'd be in trouble if they started walking around.

So the script could work so that you have the NPCs set up so they have to check the permiter. They walk up and down the wall they're guarding, as they do it, they do a look <direction their walking> so they can notice if someone is there. Then if they spot a non-member and the non-member isn't in the room with a member, then they get in trouble. This would mean as long as a guest isn't standing along the permiter they're safe.

Will they kill everybody in sight not a member of the house? Or just toss them flat out on their rears outside.

Depends how they deal with intruders now. Do intruders get killed when they try to sneak past someone or do they just get knocked unconscious? IMO the unconscious and then subdued method would probably work best from an IC standpoint (so the person can be questioned) but would that be feasible? Do all compounds have a holding pen for intruders? Should they have holding pens?

I just posted this as an idea cause I saw some people were saying that guards should be rotated, and I wasn't sure if I agreed.

[creeper386]

Ya know... It could also probably be coded to tell rather or not someone legally came through the gate, probably even to make it so if someone snuck in or something, they wouldn't have legally been allowed in so they would be treated different then someone who walked in with a member.

At least something like this would allow PCs to deal with situations if there about, IE they let the people in or not and lets NPCs deal with when it's a break in or something.

And I do think something should be fixed so that shadowing people doesn't get people in through the gates as well, IMO it's a rather cheap way to do something.

Creeper is just spouting.

[John]

And I do think something should be fixed so that shadowing people doesn't get people in through the gates as well

Okay, what if I'm wearing Byn uniform and shadow someone into the Byn compound? How are the gate guards gunna know I'm not in the Byn? IMO the shadow command works fine, as long as people don't abuse it.

[creeper386]

John... If your wearing a Byn uniform, what stops them from letting you in in the first place without shadowing anyone? Theres bound to be some reason that wearing a uniform doesn't get you an automatic entry. Or it'd be better left to be coded that wearing a uniform gives you the right of entry. I don't see how shadow makes a difference really... Except to sneak about RP.

If you got a uniform and did all your scouting and such... You could probably deal with the immortals instead of letting the code skip through RP.

IMO the shadow skill is for following people about in the streets and stuff where you are keeping a watch on them but staying back enough so they don't know you are following. NOT to skip past gate guards and such.


Creeper

[John]

If your wearing a Byn uniform, what stops them from letting you in in the first place without shadowing anyone?

I've wondered about that myself for quite a bit. What IS stopping people from getting allowed in when they don't have a uniform? Surely every guard wouldn't know what ever soldier looks like with an organisation of members moving into the hundreds?

(Yeah, an Imm probably would let you in if you warned them beforehand).