Tuluk is not full of tree lovers

[Gaare]

Don't you agree? Probably there are many jerks, fools, people speaking without smiling all the time in VNPC population. Surely there are many tough/rude hunters, unforgiven assasins/thieves, bribable soldiers, agressive people are living in the Ivory. Even.. maybe I am mistaken, but there must be racisim exist on Sun King's land.

Tuluk usually rocks hards. I hope, I was unlucky with my last PC about not being able to see true face the Ivory.

PS. Be the change thing is sometimes very hard. Especially if atmosphere prevents you to be so.

[Dalmeth]

There are no treehuggers in Tuluk.  If there ever is, they'll only be hugging the ones behind the walls while they go clearcut everything outside the walls.

There is racism in Tuluk.  However, it tends to not obvious in everyday interactions.  Other races tend are less likely to be forgiven for their faults.  That isn't really enough, in my mind, but it is significant.

However, one of the reasons Tuluk has an underdeveloped roughneck population is the lack of players.  Most experienced get snatched up into the political intrigue and many of the rough types get killed before they can make anything of themselves.

[Gimfalisette]

Just because someone smiles at you and is polite in Tuluk doesn't mean they aren't planning to kill you, ruin your reputation, steal business from you, torture you, or any number of yummy evil doings. Don't mistake "niceness" for softness. Think of Tuluk as the abusive lover who whispers sweet nothings while beating the crap out of you, and you will start to understand.

Also, I'd say that Tuluki characters see their culture's surface "niceness" as a distinct and treasured difference between themselves and Allanak, Red Storm, or Luir's. It's not going to change, because it's a point of pride with Tulukis. Rougher types are around, but they're still Tuluki, not Nakki.

[Gaare]

There is racism in Tuluk.  However, it tends to not obvious in everyday interactions.  Other races tend are less likely to be forgiven for their faults.  .

I think racism is obvious, similar even worse then Allanak. It is that serious that, half-elves are hiding under tunnels without seeing Krath. Tuluki people value blood much more then southorns. They value their identity, traditions in deeper way. They believe everything they do is right , others' is wrong. Within themselves, IMHO having blood of a human/elf even dwarf is extremely important.

Most experienced get snatched up into the political intrigue and many of the rough types get killed before they can make anything of themselves.

Very unfortunately, currently it seems the inner struggle of city is severed harshly. Not many clans are active in the city... Especially it affects much when there is no noble houses' struggle. In other words, there is little intrigue chances. Also, I can be very much wrong, but seems Jihaen/Lirathan struggle is no more. There is an obvious winner.

Just because someone smiles at you and is polite in Tuluk doesn't mean they aren't planning to kill you, ruin your reputation, steal business from you, torture you, or any number of yummy evil doings.

Of course you are right. On the other hand, I had a feeling current idea seems like let's drive those not polite out of the Ivory. Also, even though I should notice a bit because of what I was playing, yummy evil doings are extremely rare.

-Hand ten coins to your friendly thief to toss a rotten egg to the fella you annoyed.-

If people are always nice, and smiling.. Then there is no annoyance. IRL put four people together in a group and watch. After just few hours, at least someone surely gets annoyed to another. Simply we have feelings, desires, goals, etc.. Tuluk is great because there are people who can show your anger to other with a handful of coins.

Edit: Grammar

[Gimfalisette]

Of course you are right. On the other hand, I had a feeling current idea seems like let's drive those not polite out of the Ivory. Also, even though I should notice a bit because of what I was playing, yummy evil doings are extremely rare.

Sure, it's possible for someone who is "not polite" to be driven out of the Ivory; it can and does happen. This is true at all social levels, because "politeness" is part of the culture and part of fitting in, in Tuluk. This is why Nakkis stand out in Tuluk--it's not just the accent, it's because they're wearing their hood up while sitting in the Sanctuary like they would in the Gaj. There are major cultural differences in play between the cities and this is A Good Thing.

As to the yummy evil doings, they are not rare. They probably need to happen even more often though. But again it's not stuff that happens on the surface, and it may take some doing to uncover how to get involved in yummy evil things. Then again, if a character isn't "polite" and doesn't fit into Tuluk culturally, is it reasonable to expect that the yummy evil doings will ever be apparent to that character? Not really, I think.

If people are always nice, and smiling.. Then there is no annoyance.

I can't state how strongly I disagree with this. The art of politely insulting someone is alive and well in Tuluk, and there are many intensely ruffled and annoyed feelings under that polite exterior. Yes, ruffled enough that people end up dead.

[LoD]

I've seen many people complain about how the north seems "friendly" and "unharsh" and is filled with "tree-huggers".

And while not everyone embodies these qualities 100% of the time, it is more or less true of the general populace.  The people get along, order is maintained, crime is low, murders seem less frequent (as intended), and life doesn't seem quite as harsh as those living in the south.

And the main reason for this is completely IC.

New Tuluk is, well, New.

Tuluk has hardly emerged from being almost completely destroyed by magicks and having their society turned on its ear.  Buildings were destroyed, estates were sacked, social lines were blrured, financial records were erased, governments were overturned...the entire civilization was forced into survival mode.

What we've been witnessing for the past several years since Allanak's attack, occupation, and removal from the city-state of Tuluk is a slow rebirth of everything mentioned above; infrastructure, real estate, social boundaries, financial disbursement, new construction.  This is not a process that happens over months, years or decades -- but over centuries.

Imagine taking a plate of food that someone had just spent 1000 years cultivating into the most delicious dish possible.  The flavors are balanced, the proportions have been perfected, the texture is wonderful, and its exactly what you want it to be.  Now, take that dish and remove it.  Replace it with bags filled with all of the base ingredients to make that dish without any of the preparation; sacks of flour, sugar, eggs, herbs, oil, butter, raw meat, spices, etc...  It's unmixed, uncooked, untreated, unbalanced, and tastes like complete crap to those who have sampled the first dish.

Well, give the cook some damn time.

Hardly any of the Noble Estates are even fully built or fleshed out.  This new society doesn't know what to do with itself.  The commoners and nobles still frequent the same establishments, in which they are both welcome.  The patriotism of a people recently liberated is still fresh on the lips of storytellers and elders who tell their grandchildren of their time spent in the Rebellion, working side by side by the great and wonderful Chosen Lord Tenneshi himself.

Recent wars have maintained that solidarity.  It's forced them to continue to work as a focused unit, to keep social lines blurred, to keep patriotism and a love of your fellow northerner strong, to reinforce bonds between an entire nation.  You want to really see Tuluk begin to simmer and cook?

Leave it alone.  

Let it develop.  Let it slip into a delicious slow decay of social values and caste roles.  Let the lines between commoners and nobles become a bit more apparent.  Let the Houses have time to stretch their wings, taking a look around their world, and decide what pieces they want for themselves - then plan to take them from the ones who have it.  Give greed, lust, wealth, corruption, and pride the time to sink its fangs into the northern society, grab hold, and then begin to shake it apart.

Unfortunately for you "tree-hugger" haters, Tuluk isn't going to change overnight.  Or even next month.  Or probably next year.  It's going to be this way for a long, long time because change on this level must be cultivated and coaxed.  It cannot be rushed.  It cannot be synthesized.  And it will take the patience, determination, and understanding of the entire playerbase to see it realized, but it will come.

-LoD

[Gaare]

Sure, it's possible for someone who is "not polite" to be driven out of the Ivory; it can and does happen. This is true at all social levels, because "politeness" is part of the culture and part of fitting in, in Tuluk. This is why Nakkis stand out in Tuluk--it's not just the accent, it's because they're wearing their hood up while sitting in the Sanctuary like they would in the Gaj. There are major cultural differences in play between the cities and this is A Good Thing.

People in one city are -totally- polite and other city are -totally- rude. I don't know. It sounds a bad difference to me. Even their cultures are different, they are living in same old wasteland called Zalanthas.

Then again, if a character isn't "polite" and doesn't fit into Tuluk culturally, is it reasonable to expect that the yummy evil doings will ever be apparent to that character? Not really, I think.

Still even if I would agree politeness is a leading element of Tuluki culture, yummy evil things of a Tuluk should be assasination, annoyance by thievery, using of patron's status.. Not direct approach like in 'nak, i.e. Public executions.

The art of politely insulting someone is alive and well in Tuluk, and there are many intensely ruffled and annoyed feelings under that polite exterior. Yes, ruffled enough that people end up dead.

What I meant with annoyance was not only direct insults. I meant underlying ones as well. Also there is big difference between being a jerk, and uneducated (like most of the population.)

Leave it alone. Let it develop. Let it slip into a delicious slow decay of social values and caste roles. Let the lines between commoners and nobles become a bit more apparent. Let the Houses have time to stretch their wings, taking a look around their world, and decide what pieces they want for themselves - then plan to take them from the ones who have it. Give greed, lust, wealth, corruption, and pride the time to sink its fangs into the northern society, grab hold, and then begin to shake it apart.

I honestly feel ashamed because I do not totally agree those well written lines. It should not be left it alone. Tuluk should be discussed, over and over again. Even with illogical arguments, even with frustrutated words. Almost half of the gameworld should not be let alone, but spoken on over and over again.

[LoD]

I honestly feel ashamed because I do not totally agree those well written lines. It should not be left it alone. Tuluk should be discussed, over and over again. Even with illogical arguments, even with frustrutated words. Almost half of the gameworld should not be let alone, but spoken on over and over again.

The request to "Leave it alone." is made to the IC gameworld in this instance, not the players.  Its intended audience are Allanak, sorcerers, magickers, other would-be superpowers.  Leave "it" alone refers to the city-state physically rather than conceptually.  Let it have time to develop its own problems.  When the Ivory consistently has a non-northern, non-domestic enemy to fight, inner turmoil will lessen and the simple union of self defense will push the environment further back toward the areas you don't like.

By all means, continue to discuss how Tuluk's atmosphere could change, and your ideas as to why or how that should happen.  My request is that everyone who has expectations of Tuluk acting like a sophisticated and complex city-state socially, economically, and physically should be cognizant of the factors working against you.

It will get there, but there's a long way to go before that happens.

-LoD

[spawnloser]

I think the thing that LoD is saying without saying it outright is that having something to unite the people, causes the people to stay united.  It's the 'adversity building strength' thing.  If you want them to eat themselves alive from the inside, give them time to have the inside fester and rot.

[marko]

I'm on a roll today..

First, LoD's post is kick-ass and better written than I could have done.  Plus now I don't have to say the same thing.  

About politeness in Tuluk - politeness and appearance are fine and dandy but there is nothing wrong with surges of darkness or brutality in private.  When done well they create and extend Tuluk's atmosphere of a placid surface with death beneath it.  But, if they aren't done at all, then they may as well not exist.

I don't think everyone has to be polite or refined.  I've enjoyed seeing the change in Tuluk away from this.  I think a surface tension of refusing to discuss certain taboo topics will remain in place and this tension will cause people to choose their words carefully in public.

I think Gaare makes a great point about the purity of blood especially in relation to caste.  I wonder if, over time, the commoner caste will be redefined to mean only pureblood races.  Or will it come to mean only humans?  Will dwarves and elves become seperated with their own caste designation?  And what will happen to half-elves?

Currently, Tuluk is pretty open about half-elves and other races.   A lot of this comes from the assistance that these races and breeds provided in the Occupation and the rebuilding of Tuluk.  It is still fresh that Tuluk is open and flushed with its youthful pride of being victorious.  A sense of hope and opporunity is within Tuluk - it can do and be anything.  Halfbreed?  So what!  Join in the rebuilding.  Take your place in society.  Let's get together and create something amazing...

How long will this last?  When will it begin to change?  Is it changing now?  Will the tribals still find welcome in Tuluk next IC year? five years? ten years?  What of halfbreeds?  What of dwarves?  How the society evolves will be very dependent on what events happen and how players evolve their own characters.

[facehugger]

Treehuggers.

[Anonymous]

Technically its possible to be subtle without actually being polite.

Subtlety is generally saying something and meaning something else or saying something and hinting to something else. Technically you can be subtle and still be rude but its harder then just sticking to being polite.

[jcarter]

My problem with Tuluk is that there's an idea there where everyone has to be refined, clean, and socially graceful. Lower class just isn't in the vocabulary up there. If you play a rough and tumble, dirty, and gruff character, it's like you're out of place.

[marko]

My problem with Tuluk is that there's an idea there where everyone has to be refined, clean, and socially graceful. Lower class just isn't in the vocabulary up there. If you play a rough and tumble, dirty, and gruff character, it's like you're out of place.

I'm not sure if this is still the case.  I've met a variety of characters in Tuluk who weren't refined or clean and they fit Tuluk's theme perfectly.  I think the "need" to do the refined and polite thing is the first response people have towards Tuluk's culture and then, as it is explored they realize they can still be a "gritty" (just had to use that term) hunter type who is fairly rough and tumble and gruff and still fit the environment.

I'd put this as part of the growth cycle for Tuluk.

Course, I should probably add that rough and tumble does not mean pulling weapons out in public, threatening people in public, or attacking others in public - those are all very much against the law and there are other mechanisms in Tuluk for handling being upset with someone.  Specifically assassination or using thieves.  Also, note the public aspect - in private... that's a whole other ballgame.

[Cuusardo]

Tuluk is full of backstabbing, underhanded, two-faced people who just happen to like trees.

[Gimfalisette]

My problem with Tuluk is that there's an idea there where everyone has to be refined, clean, and socially graceful. Lower class just isn't in the vocabulary up there. If you play a rough and tumble, dirty, and gruff character, it's like you're out of place.

I think this depends on where you are, location-wise, and who you're with. If you're in the Sanctuary, yes, there is a certain standard of polite conduct expected there. The Tooth is a different thing entirely. Firestorm has another kind of atmosphere, and of course there's the Burrow and the Ghatti...every one of these public locations has a different feel, and I think if people would spread out and use them better, then there would be more room for less refinement in Tuluk. Hang out where your character should hang out, is what I'm saying, don't just go to tavern X because that's where all the PCs go. Or when you get to tavern X, grab someone and go to tavern Y so that you can be dirty and gruff and not get crap about it.

That being said, I've seen lots of less-refined characters in Tuluk. And I haven't seen any reluctance on the part of the more-refined to RP with the less-refined...as long as it's right time, right place, right manner of address, and all that. Like marko said, there are things you just don't do in Tuluk, but none of those things are inherently necessary to playing a more rough-and-tumble type of character.

[Pantoufle]

Tulukis are not treehuggers, they are tree murderers.