Friends, countrymen, Zalanthans - Let's talk bards!

[Quirk (not logged in)]

A PC may espouse some poetry that I OOCly think is pure crap. ICly, my character might eat it all up. This is what roleplaying is all about: playing a role. Perhaps my character has bad taste, or maybe Zalanthan tastes typically differ from my own...but ICly, my character may love whatever crap the bard in question is spewing out.

Tlaloc, the problem here is that we end up in an analogous situation to sitting round listening to someone murdering a simple tune on a violin and OOCly wincing, and having to pretend our characters like it. It's not an enjoyable RP experience for anyone but perhaps the bard.

This isn't one of those things we can hand over to the code, or play "let's pretend" about any more than we can pretend someone's a competent leader just because they want to RP being a competent leader, despite their actual IC actions being painfully stupid, or pretend that they're a witty conversationalist because they want to RP being a witty conversationalist despite a desperate lack of anything witty to say. Pretending someone is a creative genius despite their lack of creativity and genius is every bit as ridiculous and OOCly frustrating.

Just as posted, I think audience members (like Quirk) could be more responsible in their estimates of:

:arrow: How the individual character views music, ICly and OOCly (do you hate the bard because they suck, or because you don't want to deal with 'spam'?)

I'll give a bard some latitude even if they show some OOC discourtesy in usurping a popular PC meeting-place without asking anyone and spamming it with pasted emotes if their poetry has some redeeming factor to it, be it humour, narrative or technical brilliance. I would still prefer to have the option to tune them out.

:arrow: How good the material is ICly/OOCly. (would my character actually like this song, despite how I might feel about it OOCly?)

Addressed this already. This is in the same vein as "Would my character revere this man for his cunning, when OOCly he reminds me of Baldrick?" Tulukis are exposed to a lot of art and a lot of music. The chances are good that my character is more discriminating than I am with regard to technical merit, and will be following the accents of each line (or alliteration, or whatever poetic scheme Tuluki verse adopts) with an educated interest.

There's a difference between music/poetry not being to your taste, and being incompetently executed. Sure, your character might enjoy and applaud the latter - if he's a half-giant or a masochist.

Oddly enough, if people didn't attempt (and often mutilate) the technical aspects of English verse, it would be much easier to pretend that the songs were just literal translations from the Sirihish and play accordingly; but bad English poetry is bad English poetry, and it's hard to play round it. It's much easier for me to deal with, say:

Code Select Expand

Under the baobab trees, a hunter waits with bow in hand.
Dappled sunbeams light his face. High leaves rustle once.
His arrow flies, strikes home. From above a vestric falls.

than

Code Select Expand

A hunter who lived in a shack,
Went out with a big sack.
He needed meat because he had a lack,
So duskhorn he wanted to attack.

The second shows all the classic signs of lines being bizarrely and painfully distorted to fit in a rhyme scheme, but without any attention being paid to the other technical aspects of the kind of poetry which tends to have a rhyme scheme. If it's going to be readable at all it'll be because it's telling a story, or being funny, or hopefully both.

:arrow: How appropriate it is for their song to be heard by everyone. (Is my character sitting in a place where Bards and other tone-deaf drunkards are likely to start singing, such as...a tavern?)

But there's a huge OOC consideration here to take into account - unlike a real tavern, we can't easily filter out the background noise and concentrate on our friends' conversations. If we had the spam of forty or more people talking at once (never mind singers) as real pubs tend to have, taverns would be unplayable in. From a code perspective, every singer sings so loudly as to be unignorable.

Taverns on Arm are the places people go to meet other people, and talk to other people. If you start introducing the equivalent of music that has to be shouted over to them, it does the game a huge disservice.

:arrow: How important the bard is compared to the NPC/VNPC bards. (Is the bard the High Muck-a-muck Irofel, and are they actually ICly 'good', despite my OOC feelings)

This is a touchy one. However, the High Muck-a-muck Irofel isn't likely to disrupt random RPers in taverns, and if you've gone to a performance featuring High Muck-a-muck and he isn't very good, it's probably expedient to clap anyway.

[Akaramu]

Spawnloser, the issue with southern bards finding no teacher remains. Musicians are just THAT rare in the south. Music is not something that can just realistically be 'practiced' to a decent level with trial and error, especially without any written information material.

And I refuse to play in Tuluk again. :evil:

[bardbard#4]

Spawnloser, the issue with southern bards finding no teacher remains. Musicians are just THAT rare in the south.

There aren't a lot of PC bards in Allanak, but I imagine there is a fairly healthy vnpc representation.  I would admire someone who took the time to write up a background relationship between his PC and his VNPC teacher, and used that to explain his growing aptitude for music (or whatever other art form).

Music is not something that can just realistically be 'practiced' to a decent level with trial and error, especially without any written information material.

I have to respectfully disagree with this point.  Some of the greatest musicians in history have had no formal training, instead opting to listen to their own personal idols and emulate what they were doing.  In a lot of cases, they couldn't read one scrap of music.  Nor did they formally study the theory.  They had great ears and a lot of dedication, and that's where their brilliance came from.  You really have to understand how and why music exists, and its relationship to different methods of study.  Trial and error is absolutely a proven technique once a basic understanding of harmony and melody achieved (even if it's a more organic understanding that comes from just sitting in a tavern and listening to others rather than reading a music theory text book).  Remember that the music does not come from the theory.  The theory comes from the music, and there is certainly enough of that around (virtually) for people to self-teach.

[Quirk]

Incidentally, I'm going to set out my position again, because I probably haven't been very clear in places, and have spent too much time railing against bad poetry.

Bad poetry is painful to read, like hearing a musician playing wrong notes.
Even a bard with good lyrics can be pretty distracting when those don't coincide with your vision of Zalanthas (if, say, Cole Porter Konviwedu finds jolly show tunes fit his Zalanthas, and they don't fit mine, we're unlikely to be reconciled simply because he's gifted).
However, good bards are a treasure to the game, and at times our characters will want to listen to them.

It is currently impossible to filter out a bard's song in the way we filter out background music in reality, or make it filterable as with background conversations on Arm using the "talk" command.
For this reason, it's mildly OOCly impolite to start singing in a tavern where people are already engaged in animated conversation. Also, those people are probably too ICly engrossed in their affairs to bother tipping the bard.
If you must play in a busy tavern, instead of the street or some place people go expecting to see a public performance, please check at least one PC there wants to hear you. It's OOCly polite, it's ICly sensible, and someone who's agreed they want to hear a song is more likely to feel they should tip anyway.

LoD's idea is a good one, as it addresses the current inability to filter bards you don't want to hear out. I don't however think bards should be charged for using the stage. A popular bard may bring the tavern more custom. Bards should get to play for free.

Also, it's permissible to dislike bards who write bad verse, or power-emote their skills (competence is fine, mastery we charge extra for) or their VNPC support, in an entirely IC manner. Nothing's stopping you from booing them down. Discouraging bad bards is only half the equation though - if you want to see more good bards, you need to encourage the ones you like with tips and gifts.

I hope this clarifies things a bit. I don't hate bards, but I do think badly played bards are more damaging to the "atmosphere" of Arm than most other roles, because they tend to reach a wide range of people and it's hard to blot them out. The converse is also true - a good bard can help fill out the world around them.

Also, songs and poetry aren't the only bardic outlets, anyway. Irofel bards make fine storytellers. Konviwedu is renowned for theatre. Most Elkinhym bards are satirists and jesters.

[LoD]

Spawnloser, the issue with southern bards finding no teacher remains. Musicians are just THAT rare in the south. Music is not something that can just realistically be 'practiced' to a decent level with trial and error, especially without any written information material.

It is also important to note that BARD does not equal MUSICIAN.

At least not in my mind.  Bards are the tellers of tall tales.  Music might be a popular method of adding to the story, but you have my permission to be creative with how you become accomplished.  Here are a few suggestions:

:arrow: Act out scenes from famous pro-Allanak battles.
:arrow: Recite poems or stories.
:arrow: If you want dramatic emphasis, maybe take up a percussion instrument.

It would make sense to me for percussion instruments to be common in the southlands, with their lack of wood or sinew.  And those would require much less professional training to learn.  One of bards hardly sang at all, instead he collected a few masks and would act our small scenes for the audience.

Be creative.  That's part of being an entertainer.  Songs get old.  Mix it up and introduce some new performances.

-LoD

[Cuusardo]

Tuluki bards of the Circle starting out with good skills is one thing, because they're trained rigorously.  Non-Circle bards starting out as dazzling as rockstars should not happen as much as it does, IMO.  Yes, it is possible to learn instruments on one's own (I taught myself several instruments over the course of my life, including piano, clarinet, guitar, and bassoon) but it takes many, many years to become a virtuoso.  That is something I can't say that I became on any of those instruments, because I have only had a few years of formal training, and equally as much practice.

A musical prodigy does come along occasionally.  Take Tori Amos for example.  Whether or not she had any formal musical training in voice and piano does not really matter, but it did take her years to hone her talents.  It also does not matter whether or not your musical tastes lead you to enjoy her type music, because objectively (i.e. from a technical standpoint) her skills with the keys are damned good.

[Medena]

All this anti-bard sentiment really makes me sad. In small part because three of my own past PC's, all favourites, have been performers of some kind but mainly because I adore what bards add to the game. They bring a lot of colour to Zalanthas and a lot of flavour to scenes. Though generally underutilized, they have so much exciting potential for other functions too:  spreaders of propaganda, destroyers of reputations, walking history books, just to name a few.  I can well understand the "passion" of Dresan as he posts against all the negative, non-constructive views espoused in this thread.

I personally hate most bards

I only see 'songs' IG as spam

If someone's going to inflict bad, self-indulgent poetry on me without my consent, I'm more than entitled to be acerbic. And as far as taking time goes, it may take you time and effort to evacuate your bowels, but I'm still not going to praise the result.

Sure, those were just snippets. Sure, they were mixed in with a few positive comments. Even so, it's just depressing...

[/emotional spewing]

In response to some of the more pervasive attitudes:

Bardic performances shouldn't always be songs.

True. Probably the reason most players opt for the song and music form is that these sorts of performances are less invasive and less demanding of full attention of an audience. While the "spam" as some of you folks call it would probably be the same, in RP terms a quiet song delivered from a stool is way less demanding of attention than a dramatic tale.  Real life comparison: a cocktail lounge with a singer at a piano in the corner versus a nightclub with a stand-up comedian doing a routine on the stage. Also, carrying around an instrument is sort of a hook to get attention. If a bard takes her lute from her back and starts tuning the strings, there is a chance this might bring an invitation from someone to perform.

Bards should not inflict their "spam" on people without an invitation.

Yeah, I do agree.  My last bard never once performed without an explicit invitation to do so.  But only because she got incredibly lucky (probably because her "hook" was a pretty unique character concept) and managed to acquire an influential patron.  Some times though you just have to perform without invitation in order to get noticed then start making those contacts and building a reputation.  

Bards should do street performances.

In theory, this is a really nice idea. In practise, it does not work since no one ever stops to listen. If we are talking Tuluk and the Poet's Circle, no one even GOES there, let alone stops to listen.  Players do not spend RL hours writing material so that they can engage in solo RP performing for crowds composed of VNPC's.  Art, no matter the genre, just ain't art without a spectator to see it and VNPC's really don't cut it.  One or two sessions of it can be kind of fun and a way to tune up the material but more than that and it is just silly.

One of my very first characters was a juggler in Allanak. Ahhh... to be a bright-eyed, naive, enthusiastic newbie again! I had this absolutely great (or so I thought) concept that I'd start out as a street performer and make enough in tips to survive until I got a job with House Fale as a performer.   :lol: House Fale only existed virtually as it turned out and street performing was pretty unrewarding monetarily.  Due purely to luck though I did manage to carry on with the concept. I think some players took pity on the obvious newbie busting her ass to perform full shows that included a line of patter for the audience, deliberately fumbled maneuvres, and other bits of showmanship. It was fun and somehow the PC survived, went on to other things and lived a long successful life until I retired her.  But now, with the jaded wisdom of a veteran, I'd never again try such a thing.

[Intrepid]

All this anti-bard sentiment really makes me sad.

Likewise.  I think, after reading this thread, I'm just going to scrap the jester concept I was planning.

I'm never going to think of myself as too critical again.  :shock:

[Gimfalisette]

I think, after reading this thread, I'm just going to scrap the jester concept I was planning.

I would strongly urge anyone thinking about playing a bard character, north or south, to not let the naysayers in this thread put you off. For every person complaining here, there are at least as many out there, currently silent in the crowd, who will love what you do and who love what you will bring to the game. From my observations in game, those posting so critically and negatively here are by no means the majority of the player base. Also, the staff seems very supportive of bards.

Plus, playing a bard is incredibly fun and challenging in positive ways. So just do it, you won't regret it

[LoD]

All this anti-bard sentiment really makes me sad.

Besides Quirk's comments, removed from his constructive criticism to appear more hateful than intended, I don't see a lot of anti-bard sentiment.

I see the most common issues presented being:

:arrow: Portraying a masterful virtuoso without significant IC development.
:arrow: Using VNPCs or NPCs to confirm your success or talent.
:arrow: Performing unsolicited, and perhaps unwanted, material.
:arrow: Songs that are bloated with short sentences and choppy language.

Bards are great.  I think many of them are good role players and contribute a lot of energy, creativity, and flavor to the game.  However, because bards are a gleaming (sometimes glaring) beacon that cannot be ignored, the bad can easily outshadow the good.  The people who fire off macro-songs in rapid succession, who spam rooms with choppy dialogue, and masterfully strum, pluck, beat, play and slap their instruments with unshakeable confidence and exaggerated talent.

Why pick the few insults from a sea of constructive criticism and make claim that anti-bard sentiment is running rampant through the thread?  It makes you sad?  Because Quirk's personal standards are too high?  That's his burden to bear, not yours.  I've written several songs and played two bard characters, and I'm not offended by what Quirk is saying because I agree that a few bad apples can sometimes sour me on the barrel.  And expressing what those factors are in a rational discussion is the best way to see results.

Most of us that have spoken on this subject WANT bards to be a bigger part of the game than they already are, and WANT the quality of their songs and performances to be as high as it can be.   If this thread encourages just one person to put more thought into their bard character (including myself for future characters), then I think it's worthwhile and successful.

-LoD

[Dresan]

I still think some people are missing a small point here. The point being that when it comes to songs, poems and stories, what your opinion on what is 'high' quality or 'good' , is not nessasarily anyone elses. That what you might think ruins the atmosphere is not nessasarily the case for anyone else. Therefore a little consideration for someone that may have work hard on a piece (either song, story or poem) in the hopes that it would have entertained people, is not too much to ask. At least so i thought til this thread.

I was going to make a few example in an attempt to relate creating a piece for the game to things people might be more familiar with like coming up with quest and plot that -they- think will interest everyone but i don't think there is much of a point to doing that. I really think that the few constructive criticisms where swamped by alot of hateful comments. Meaning this thread has probably hurt Bards more then help. Yeah LoD and others might disagree with me here but i'm guessing the players who are having second thoughts of attempting to play bards would not.

EDITTED: for grammer and just to add that i agree with Gimfalisette post.

[Seeker]

Yes, playing a bard is OOCly far harder than it should be. You as a player have to be entertaining to the rest of us as players, not just as characters. It's unfair, but if you're going to turn our characters from actors in a scene into spectators, you need to put on a show worth seeing.

I adore bards.  I want to be a great one someday.  But here is the problem, in a nutshell, as I see it:

PCs should take into account their characters tastes in music.

Which means, if we are playing a true-Sun King-red, brainwashed thrall of the Northlands, we kinda have to pay attention to bardic performances, and maybe even pretend to like them.

I don't care how long a player works on a particular piece.  That's her choice. How hard someone works on a project means jack to me.  Results of effort matter. Spend three months and make a shabby screwdriver, and I am not impressed.  Three months, and produce a ship worthy to sail across the Pacific Ocean.... you have my fixated enthusiasm.  My point is this:

I, as a player, dislike crappy bards.  My PC is often not even given that luxury.  That blows.  Be good, bard, be good.


Seeker

[spawnloser]

I still think some people are missing a small point here. The point being that when it comes to songs, poems and stories, what your opinion on what is 'high' quality or 'good' , is not nessasarily anyone elses.

You are correct in assuming that there are style preferences.  You are NOT correct in assuming that there is an objective and heavily developed system which can define the quality of a musical piece that crosses all genres, and people that study music to that level can appreciate the quality even while they deplore the style.  The same goes for writing in all other forms and even art in all other forms.  I say these all as boundries blur between the lot, but not everything from one is another.

That what you might think ruins the atmosphere is not nessasarily the case for anyone else. Therefore a little consideration for someone that may have work hard on a piece (either song, story or poem) in the hopes that it would have entertained people, is not too much to ask. At least so i thought til this thread.

Consideration, yes.    However, the consideration does go both ways.

I hate myself for writing this even before I do, but another sad truth is that not everyone is posessed of the same artistic skill when it comes to writing poetry (which is what all songs in the game are truly presented to every else as).  Sometimes, people have to realize their own limitations when it comes to writing their own work.

TO BE VERY CLEAR, I am not saying that there is a single person playing this game that is unable to play a bard.  There is a wealth of song material in the game documentation that is available, as well as there being other resources for music that can be imported to the game.  (Mind that this second option is discreetly done.  Certain music isn't appropriate to the setting, and obviously converted popular songs tend to break the immersion for your fellow players.)

To note, I do disagree with you.  I do think that the people with second thoughts can look at this thread to see what things people find to be the mark of a boring, possibly annoying or even twinkish bard.  They can take what has been said and learn from it without having to make the same mistakes themselves.  I think that those playing bards can look at this and realize why sometimes people don't treat their character they way they think their character should be treated and how they may improve their play to actually grab people's attentions if that is what they would actually like their character to do.

I also think that other's hateful (as you called it) words taken out of context are a LOT worse than when taken in context.  You can not take any word, phrase or even sentence from its surroundings in any form of writing and have it mean the same thing as in its original location.

[Dresan]

I hate myself for writing this even before I do, but another sad truth is that not everyone is posessed of the same artistic skill when it comes to writing poetry (which is what all songs in the game are truly presented to every else as).  Sometimes, people have to realize their own limitations when it comes to writing their own work.

TO BE VERY CLEAR, I am not saying that there is a single person playing this game that is unable to play a bard.  There is a wealth of song material in the game documentation that is available, as well as there being other resources for music that can be imported to the game.  

Such Arrogance...

Abiet not taking modern songs and attempting to convert them is a nice rule but still by your logic no one but professional artist should be confident enough to RP bards. I mean who decides who is talented and who is not or what is good literature or should i say what is documentation worthy? You? A 'professional'? The imms? Maybe...i wonder if the imms are arrogant enough to think something they think is good won't 'ruin' the atmosphere for anyone. I mean even i sometimes read descs and think 'what the fuck'. (bulging crotched elf anyone?)

Oh but people can play bards if they stick to the docs, right? I am glad you think the documentation is good though at least. Guess who wrote some of it? Bet it wasn't RL artists, i'll even bet some of them didn't even think they had talent for it but they were willing to give it a try. They still did a damn good job.  I bet there is stuff there that shouldn't have made the cut in some people's minds too.

Not -everyone- here is a professional writer, professional artist or even professional coder...just a bunch of people from all walks of life with a computers who put in time and still try to make this world come alive...why because we like pretending...aka Roleplaying whether it be as hunters, assassins, merchant or even bards. Sometimes we succeed in the roles, sometimes we don't...despite any RL 'limitations' trying is part of the fun of the game .

The attempt alone sometimes pays off, this mud is proof of that i think.

Anyways, I am really liking the idea of stages more and more, just because it would make alot of thoughts in this thread moot points. Oh and while to say i strongly disagree with the anti-bards of this thread would be an understatement, its still not so much i am passionate about this topic as much as it is i'm stuck in an isolated place in-game.  :cry:

Editted for grammer and an addition

[spawnloser]

still by your logic no one but professional artist should be confident enough to RP bards.

No, what I'm saying is that people should not be upset when they think their original work is god's gift to the mud and everyone else doesn't agree.

I mean who decides who is talented and who is not or what is good literature or should i say what is documentation worthy?

Well, it's simple.  The Imms decide what is documentation-worthy.  As far as who decides who is talented, well, that is self-evident.  If your original works are getting people to pay attention, you have some talent.  If people are avoiding your performances, you possibly don't.  (Note that there are other factors which may influence people's reactions.)

Oh but people can play bards if they stick to the docs, right? I am glad you think the documentation is good though at least. Guess who wrote some of it? Bet it wasn't RL artists, i'll even bet some of them didn't even think they had talent for it but they were willing to give it a try. They still did a damn good job.  I bet there is stuff there that shouldn't have made the cut in some people's minds too.

As I said, there are preferences in style.  However, the more skill you have in prose and poetry, the more people will.  I didn't say people shouldn't compose, but that noone is truly the best judge of their own work.  You have to take a risk and expose yourself to people...and they may not react the way you think they will.

Really, Dresan, most of the anti-bards that you're talking about really are pro-bard...they are just anti-BAD-bard...and since bards put themselves in the public eye, bad bards stick out a lot and thus are highly-observed and highly-criticized.

In regards to your 'arrogance' comment, though...my point was that some people need to look at the reactions of those others in game to the bards they play.  If those bards aren't doing well when they're singing their own work, maybe they should try to figure out how they should be writing differently or use other sources of good material.  I am sorry if I sound arrogant when I say this, but it is a simple FACT that different people have different aptitudes or different educations.  Talent and training go a long way, and some simply don't have as much as others.  Such is the human condition.  A group has reached a general consensus about those works on the site, though, believing it to be good work.  I never said you needed training to produce something people like, which it seems to me you are implying I said.

[Intrepid]

I don't care how long a player works on a particular piece.  That's her choice. How hard someone works on a project means jack to me.  Results of effort matter. Spend three months and make a shabby screwdriver, and I am not impressed.  Three months, and produce a ship worthy to sail across the Pacific Ocean.... you have my fixated enthusiasm.  My point is this:

I, as a player, dislike crappy bards.  My PC is often not even given that luxury.  That blows.  Be good, bard, be good.

Ladies and gentlemen, I give you SEEKER: The posterboy of anyone who, after reading this thread, believes that it's a bad idea to play a bard.

Yes, folks.  He did say exactly that.  He wielded opinion as if it were universal truth.  And anyone who was possibly self-conscious about making a bard is just going to get ridiculed by this guy for purely ooc dislike.  Now, most roles do not require likability for basic prosperity, but this one does--and what Seeker has kindly pointed out is that he has no ooc consideration for a player who may not know what opinions he himself holds on bards.  He hates the majority of them and will take it out on you because his ideal bard must be universally liked by everyone.

For anyone who actually thinks that I was overreacting about posts on here being cruel and snide, please feel free to look closely at this post and any of the others in this thread having tantrums that bards aren't good enough or are an ooc disturbance.

It's truly pathetic when brainless mercs are idolized but ic artists/performers trying to appeal to the cultural development of the game are treated like dirt, even by the admissions of the players themselves.

[Rhyden]

It's truly pathetic when brainless mercs are idolized but ic artists/performers trying to appeal to the cultural development of the game are treated like dirt, even by the admissions of the players themselves.

Sounds lots like IRL. Brainless celebs are idiolized when the talented and skilled are disregarded. *Shrug*.

[Intrepid]

At least in modern society, we have our share of brilliant famous people.

[Dresan]

No, what I'm saying is that people should not be upset when they think their original work is god's gift to the mud and everyone else doesn't agree.

For this to be true, there would have to be someone here asking why there are people who don't like their stuff and i haven't seen that. What i have seen is people saying a bard is 'crappy' because they personally don't like something another player made. This is what i disagree with because just because they didn't like a piece(song, poem, story, etc), doesnt mean no one else does. Again, yes different tastes.

Now what i've been saying and this is what i think it might be what you are referring to with that statement, is that even if you don't OOCly or ICly like what the player wrote, have a little consideration for the -player-,that took the time to attempt to bring some entertainment to the game. I orginally thought it wasn't too much too ask, but sadly i am definately willing to admit i was wrong on this.

I actually had no problem with the bit constructive criticism emerging from this thread for example what if someone completely copied a britney spear song word for word. Okay i can see this being a problem. Potential solutions to solve this would be submitting pieces to imms so they can go over it, maybe the lyrics to the actual song you are converting. That way they can at least make sure there are no referrences to semi-automatics in your song. That said if someone thinks something is seriously wrong with a piece, they player could talk to an imm about it.

Again other then that when approved, if you don't oocly like what the player wrote, pretty much falls under the catagory of 'No one gives a shit', and feel free to write something -you- think is better. Now if your PC ICLY doesn't like the piece, feel free to do something about it ICLY.

If those bards aren't doing well when they're singing their own work, maybe they should try to figure out how they should be writing differently or use other sources of good material.

True but again it could be just you that doesn't think its good, maybe others including the bard think differently. Again there are OOC and IC differences, if a bard comes up with the best written, most clever song on why the templar is a shithead, well the templar player might love it from an ooc stand point but Icly that bard still has to die. Again the oppossite could just as easily be true.Again, yes different tastes, different styles but just because someone doesn't OOCly like it doesn't mean it shouldn't be there. Its because of this that i disagree with you when you bring RL into the equation...Yes someone with RL talent or whatever RL reason may write a better piece..may even write better rooms...BUT it does not mean others who might not be with any advantage cannot at least attempt it. If they put enough work and love into it, some might like it, some might not but it will probably still belong in the game.

This is what your (spawnloser) orginal post i was commeting to was saying to me, the second one, well the tune seemed to change a bit...therefore i have no problems saying that it must have me that  misunderstood you.   Unfortunately some people ended up putting their foots in their mouths in this thread and posted silly or to be truely blunt stupid comments.  Those comments are mainly what i've been agruing against. Despite the few good criticism, alot of of things could have been better said or better yet not said at all.

[spawnloser]

Actually, what this thread will hopefully accomplish is this...

-Fewer bards poweremoting their adoring fans.
-More bards attempting to get people to solicit their work, as it should be.
-More bards thinking about how their music fits with the game world and the other characters in it.

Most of the gripes truly have been about this, not the quality of the song...but the quality of the presentation (put overly simply).

[jstorrie]

It's truly pathetic when brainless mercs are idolized but ic artists/performers trying to appeal to the cultural development of the game are treated like dirt, even by the admissions of the players themselves.

Many in-game performers are not trying to appeal to the cultural development of the game. They're throwing a few adapted songs together and wildly ignoring the documentation.

I don't think there's anyone in this thread who dislikes bards who engage actual Zalanthan culture, bring up interesting bits of in-game lore, drive plots, and such. What bothers people is having to read bad poetry, and seeing power-emoting. Not all performers can hide behind the Bardic Shield on this one: some are just not doing things properly.

Some brainless mercs are idolized because those roles are being played so well. If there were as many people playing great bards as great scuzzy Bynners, there wouldn't be a problem here. Likewise, if 'scuzzy Bynner' was being repeatedly and catastrophically fouled up I think there would be some resentment against that archetype, too.

[Nao]

Jstorrie makes a good point there.

Anyways, bards mostly exist to entertain the people, they live off entertaining people and even if they're paid to bring across this point or the other and make this look great or that look bad, they still have to be interesting and entertaining, or else they'd have zero success with bringing their point across.

The majority of the populace are commoners of the lower classes (even if this is not entirely reflected by how the playerbase is currently spread)- so bards would HAVE to be entertaining for your average Joe. And I think that's where a lot of bards are missing out.
I see the average, dirt-poor commoner being much better entertained by ballads, songs that tell a story in some way or at least make you think than some long-winded song that goes on one stanza after another about how great Kalan wine or that fancy noble house is without being funny, exciting or thougthful.
That's why I see the songs that the bard in the Bard's Barrel plays as much better examples for songs than the ones in the Sanctuary.
Those would be more interesting to players as well and maybe stop them - look at the kind of lyrics in songs that are popular today - I'd like to see more lyrics of this type in game, ballads, something that makes them interesting to listen to. I don't mind if you adapt some popular song and zalanthanise it a bit, as long as it fits some criteria.

For the same reason I don't think that bards ahould be too refined - because that wopuld mean losing touch with the lower classes and making them less likeable for the general populace overall. Who likes some rich guy who acts like he'S soemthing better at all times?

I'd write a bit more to explain but I've got to catch my bus...

[spawnloser]

> sing (his voice soulful) Ricky was a young boy.  He had a heart of stone.  Lived dawn to dusk and he worked his fingers to the bone!

[LoD]

Yes, folks.  He did say exactly that.  He wielded opinion as if it were universal truth.  And anyone who was possibly self-conscious about making a bard is just going to get ridiculed by this guy for purely ooc dislike.  Now, most roles do not require likability for basic prosperity, but this one does--and what Seeker has kindly pointed out is that he has no ooc consideration for a player who may not know what opinions he himself holds on bards.  He hates the majority of them and will take it out on you because his ideal bard must be universally liked by everyone.

For anyone who actually thinks that I was overreacting about posts on here being cruel and snide, please feel free to look closely at this post and any of the others in this thread having tantrums that bards aren't good enough or are an ooc disturbance.

>open seeker's mouth
Ok.

>put words mouth
You put your words into Seeker's mouth.

>close seeker's mouth
Ok.

Did you even read Seeker's first sentence from the same post?

I adore bards. I want to be a great one someday.

Seeker said nothing about hating the majority of bards.  He did not state that his OOC taste in people's music will bleed into his RP.  He did not state that the bard must be universally liked.  These are your words, your fears, and your exaggerations and incorrect assumptions.

You are being snide, and to call many of the constructive posts tantrums is simply a misnomer applied in an effort to categorize their message to one of unreasonable and immature rage, which is simply untrue.  As spawnloser mentions, the bulk of this thread is about the method of delivery and how a bard executes the presentation, not about the bard's material.

As for your performer, why do you care if a vocal few on the GDB might not support your bard character.  They aren't a balanced slice of the MUD's demographic.  I never wonder if the other players in the game will enjoy my next character concept because they aren't the ones responsible for my fun, I am.  So I definitely think you should pursue your performer rather than let any of them disuade you from trying, you're stronger than that.

I second Gimfalisette in saying that bards and other performers are extremely fun and rewarding characters with a lot of potential.  They might require some real talent to be truly successful, but that's how it is in show biz.  Not everyone getting off the bus gets a recording contract.  And that's a hard thing to accept for anyone who puts their heart and soul into something.

-LoD

[Intrepid]

Did you even read Seeker's first sentence from the same post?

I adore bards. I want to be a great one someday.

Yep, read it.  He said he wanted to be a great bard someday.  That's wonderful, except he's basically crapping on anyone wanting to be one.  His statement proclaiming is adoration for bards is contradicted by everything he says afterward--so forgive me if he didn't make me a believer.

Seeker said nothing about hating the majority of bards.  He did not state that his OOC taste in people's music will bleed into his RP.  He did not state that the bard must be universally liked.  These are your words, your fears, and your exaggerations and incorrect assumptions.

I, as a player, dislike crappy bards. My PC is often not even given that luxury. That blows. Be good, bard, be good.

The best part about an ambiguous statement like this is that Seeker has totally divorced himself of any real responsibility.  By wielding an opinion as a fact, as if there was some universally "good" bard, he's ensured that he could pretty much all of them and have individuals like yourself defending him over it.  Good job.

You are being snide, and to call many of the constructive posts tantrums is simply a misnomer applied in an effort to categorize their message to one of unreasonable and immature rage, which is simply untrue.  As spawnloser mentions, the bulk of this thread is about the method of delivery and how a bard executes the presentation, not about the bard's material.

What I've seen are ungrateful posters being snide throughout this entire thread.  Yes, you've been doing your level best to whine about a group of people you had to tolerate in game and didn't get to choose whether or not they were the cultural foundation of the new civilization you've been playing in.  Yes, I do believe they're tantrums, both unreasonable and immature.  There have been quotes posed by Medena and just recently confirmed by Seeker that state that a lot of this has to do with a distaste for the class in general.  Just because I don't agree with you does not mean I'm misinterpreting.  The material is quite clear, and I believe it's a bad idea to make a bard as long as the current feelings prevail.  I intend to discourage anyone else from doing so as well.

As for your performer, why do you care if a vocal few on the GDB might not support your bard character.  They aren't a balanced slice of the MUD's demographic.  I never wonder if the other players in the game will enjoy my next character concept because they aren't the ones responsible for my fun, I am.  So I definitely think you should pursue your performer rather than let any of them disuade you from trying, you're stronger than that.

You don't really understand the definition of "opinion", do you?  Saying a piece of work is "good" or "bad" is largely up to the taste of the person--for example, ask any group of people about any given movie this summer and you'll receive a deluge of varying responses.  When this opinion is governed mostly by the ooc dislike a player might have, there's not really much leeway with which to reason with such a person.  And lastly, while you can be utterly disliked and play just about any other class, Bards subsist on the goodwill and favor of others--it's not irrelevant, it's the basis for the character's existence.  When you're sabotaged by ooc bias from the very beginning, there's no point in attempting such a role until the playerbase as a whole has some time to grow up a bit.

I second Gimfalisette in saying that bards and other performers are extremely fun and rewarding characters with a lot of potential.  They might require some real talent to be truly successful, but that's how it is in show biz.  Not everyone getting off the bus gets a recording contract.  And that's a hard thing to accept for anyone who puts their heart and soul into something.

I'm not even talking about success here--unless you count survival among those.  I'm just referring to having a role that isn't starving to death and maybe has the sid for an ale or two each login.  Bards add color to the world.  It takes far more effort for a bard to make songs than it does for a merc to type kill creature--yet our still-too-DIKU priorities make the latter far more acceptable and likable.

This is yet another example of how several of the players are shrinking our options topic by topic until we end up in a two dimensional world.