Something to Think about During the War

[InsertCleverNameHere]

Just to state, my PC is not involved in the HRPT, besides waiting eagerly to catch up on the latest news floating around. That said, I don't actually know how people are behaving inside the camps. But I did read this entire thread, and feel there is something I would like to add.

I find that hearing the PC's in the camps (nak) have a thicker skin where magick use is concerned is perfectly acceptable. Yeah, almost every common PC is raised and engrained with anywhere from mild fear, distrust, to complete and abject horror to magicks. And the game docs state as much, documents written to cover your day to day common interactions. But these are not normal circumstances. It's a war. That changes a lot IMO. So your normal, average, magick-fearing PC is forced to sit and eat lunch and kill people beside the weirdo's for months on end. They're becoming desensitized to it. Seems a normal progression to me. It doesn't mean these common PC's are making future plans to sit down with their good gemmed buddies and toss a few ales back upon return to the city. They are temporarily setting their differences aside to act against an even greater evil, which would be the opposing city.

Now, say Allanak wins the war? Gemmers are suddenly finding work positions they wouldn't have before, some of the soldiers are *gasp* actually mingling socially with the 'freaks'.. So? For those who don't want to see such a thing, I would put money that it would only be a temporary lull. A brief abomination that probably won't last a full IG year. It's been my observation that when unnatural bad things happen, often the elementalists find themselves immediately suspect. Looking at it from that perspective of OOC knowledge, concider it an eye of a hurricaine. Because the minute some rogue mages or sorcerer with a bent for world dominance begins acting up again, even the devoted gemmers who assisted with the war are going to be knocked back, if not to square one then pretty darn close.

Basically, my long winded opinion is summed up to this.. It's not that big of a deal if it changes things. Chances of it lasting are about as likely as every dwarf spontaniously sprouting gloriously long locks of silken hair.  :roll: Like someone else said. Let things happen as they happen. Worry about your own character, let others worry about theirs. Things will work themselves out.

[slipshod]

For once, I actually read every post in the thread.  I would like to toss out a point I didn't see brought up yet.  FYI, I'm talking from an Allanak perspective.

The mages involved in the war are still a small fraction of the mage population in Allanak.  Even if mages fighting in the war earn some measure or respect and acceptance from the soldiers there, they are doing it on an individual basis.  They will not be representing all mages everywhere - just themselves.  If Joe soldier sees Jack Krathian murder a dozen Tuluki soldiers with a wave of his hand.. and if they are forced to share a tent and wait out a storm together... Joe soldier will not go back to Allanak and automatically feel comradery with every krathi he meets.  To the contrary, he will know that the other Krathi have the same power to kill that his "friend" did, but he will know nothing of their loyalties, morals, personality.  It would make him distrust and fear that mage even more.  Even if every mage from the war lives and returns to Allanak, their contributions will not extend beyond them as individuals.  Mages are mortal, and they will die.  Will the next generation of mage be treated as a hero because of the actions of someone a generation before?  I don't think so.  Magick gives them the potential to do great things.. to be great help or cause great harm.  How that potential is used is up to the individual mage, and the actions of one should not translate to every other mage.  In fact, those mages who are not involved in the war, might be treated with additional contempt.  "You have the power to help, yet you stay in the city and revel in your own power... living in the safety of our walls and doing nothing to contribute or earn your keep."

Mages are as unique and individual as anyone else.  The benefits of contributions will only be enjoyed by that tiny minority who actually contributed (and the even smaller number who survive to come home).  The actions of a few mages on the battlefield will not ingratiate every other mage at home, and for generations to come.
I can also see the point of view that when the power of mages is seen, the common people might question even more the appropriateness of having mages free in the city.  If it becomes known, in recent events and not just legend, that mages can cause great destruction, the common people may feel like they don't belong sitting at a table in the Barrel.  It would be difficult enough for the mage who proved himself fighting in the war, and maybe could have an argument made for earning a place in society - but it would be doubly hard then for that mage who didn't contribute, whose motivations are unknown.  

The more power mages display in the war, the more they will reinforce the very reasons they are shunned and feared in the first place.

[Cegar]

For once, I actually read every post in the thread.  I would like to toss out a point I didn't see brought up yet.  FYI, I'm talking from an Allanak perspective.

The mages involved in the war are still a small fraction of the mage population in Allanak.  Even if mages fighting in the war earn some measure or respect and acceptance from the soldiers there, they are doing it on an individual basis.  They will not be representing all mages everywhere - just themselves.  If Joe soldier sees Jack Krathian murder a dozen Tuluki soldiers with a wave of his hand.. and if they are forced to share a tent and wait out a storm together... Joe soldier will not go back to Allanak and automatically feel comradery with every krathi he meets.  To the contrary, he will know that the other Krathi have the same power to kill that his "friend" did, but he will know nothing of their loyalties, morals, personality.  It would make him distrust and fear that mage even more.  Even if every mage from the war lives and returns to Allanak, their contributions will not extend beyond them as individuals.  Mages are mortal, and they will die.  Will the next generation of mage be treated as a hero because of the actions of someone a generation before?  I don't think so.  Magick gives them the potential to do great things.. to be great help or cause great harm.  How that potential is used is up to the individual mage, and the actions of one should not translate to every other mage.  In fact, those mages who are not involved in the war, might be treated with additional contempt.  "You have the power to help, yet you stay in the city and revel in your own power... living in the safety of our walls and doing nothing to contribute or earn your keep."

Mages are as unique and individual as anyone else.  The benefits of contributions will only be enjoyed by that tiny minority who actually contributed (and the even smaller number who survive to come home).  The actions of a few mages on the battlefield will not ingratiate every other mage at home, and for generations to come.
I can also see the point of view that when the power of mages is seen, the common people might question even more the appropriateness of having mages free in the city.  If it becomes known, in recent events and not just legend, that mages can cause great destruction, the common people may feel like they don't belong sitting at a table in the Barrel.  It would be difficult enough for the mage who proved himself fighting int he war, and maybe could have an argument made for earning a place in society - but it would be doubly hard then for that mage who didn't contribute, whose motivations are unknown.  

The more power mages display in the war, the more they will reinforce the very reasons they are shunned and feared in the first place.  Sorry if this was rambling and disjointed.  Digest.

However, the hatred Tulukis have for ALL mages stemmed from the mages who destroyed their home. If all mages were treated as individuals, then the stigma of being a mage wouldn't really exist.

[slipshod]

The stigma exists for all of them.  Some exceptions can rise above it, but they would not elevate every other mage in the world along with them.

[Cegar]

No, but it could. It really could go either way, or just stay the same.

[slipshod]

Could it?  I really don't think so.  The majority of the world's population is not out there in the Allanak camp, or having mages earn their trust and acceptance.  They are back in the cities, maybe hearing stories about the destructive force of magick.  Is that going to make mages MORE acceptable?

"Hey stranger.  You could blow up this entire tavern with a thought.  Come on in and get drunk with us."

Think about if instead of mages, Allanak was using "trained" tembos.  Viscious deadly beasts who can wreak great havoc.  Knowing how dangerous they are, even if they are effective in war, isn't going to make people want to take them as pets after the war.  It will make people more aware of how volatile their presence is.
Will people think, "There's one of those nasty monsters the Templarate used to slaughter the enemy.  Can I stick my hand in the cage to pet it?" ?   more likely: "There's one of those deadly monsters.  I sure hope the Templarate isn't saving money by buying cheap cages.  Keep it locked up and away from me."

[Delirium]

To play devil's advocate.. some might secretly wonder if they could learn to control their own pet tembo.

[Cegar]

Could it?  I really don't think so.  The majority of the world's population is not out there in the Allanak camp, or having mages earn their trust and acceptance.  They are back in the cities, maybe hearing stories about the destructive force of magick.  Is that going to make mages MORE acceptable?

"Hey stranger.  You could blow up this entire tavern with a thought.  Come on in and get drunk with us."

Think about if instead of mages, Allanak was using "trained" tembos.  Viscious deadly beasts who can wreak great havoc.  Knowing how dangerous they are, even if they are effective in war, isn't going to make people want to take them as pets after the war.  It will make people more aware of how volatile their presence is.
Will people think, "There's one of those nasty monsters the Templarate used to slaughter the enemy.  Can I stick my hand in the cage to pet it?" ?   more likely: "There's one of those deadly monsters.  I sure hope the Templarate isn't saving money by buying cheap cages.  Keep it locked up and away from me."

Or, conversely, it would show that tembo's could in fact be trained and made as pets.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Adding, Tembos and Magickers can't really be compared. Tembo don't have a human thought process, and Magickers do. I highly find it unlikely that the two are put on the same level by anybody in terms of intellect.

That spot is reserved for muls.

Still, I can understand your thought process and it bears high merit.

[SpyGuy]

People may embrace the fear aspect, I hope more do.  But the attitude on the frontline is currently, as Delirium points out, concentrating on the usefulness of mages.  And it's become common and accepted practice to use mages for benefit now.  If that attitude carried over into city life, if mage X was called in by groups of hunters or even just militia on patrols to cast defensive spells on them, then it would signal a significant shift.  Mages would transform from feared outcastes into useful commodities if people coming back from the front began to consider them by and large trustworthy.

So a few things I feel deserve repeating:  

Mages are untrustworthy.  Even those nice friendly mages may have hidden agendas with powers unknown to normal mortals.  I feel this should be common superstition among mundanes and in all honesty MANY mage players are deep characters.  Just because you see a mage sitting in silks sipping an ale doesn't mean she isn't an evil backstabbing baby sacrificer.

Many gemmed PCs will actively strive for acceptance.  They weren't always mages and some downright hate what they are.  It's really the mundane's burden to provide the discrimination.  Mages can help this by being scary from time to time.

But most of all I feel it's the place of leader PCs, particularly the templarate, to set the tone for gemmed/commoner interaction.  I would personally like to see mages more restricted, forced to be subservient rather than treated like honored employees.  Templars wield great power, gemmed mages accept the responsibilities of their role because Allanak is the only place they can live openly.  The more slack the people in charge cut gemmed mages the more they will ICly take in terms of wealth, influence and freedoms.  The templarate, however, has the power to dictate the nature of this relationship.

[spawnloser]

However, the hatred Tulukis have for ALL mages stemmed from the mages who destroyed their home.

Correction, because magick destroyed half of their home.

Take this as you will.

[Cegar]

People may embrace the fear aspect, I hope more do.  But the attitude on the frontline is currently, as Delirium points out, concentrating on the usefulness of mages.  And it's become common and accepted practice to use mages for benefit now.  If that attitude carried over into city life, if mage X was called in by groups of hunters or even just militia on patrols to cast defensive spells on them, then it would signal a significant shift.  Mages would transform from feared outcastes into useful commodities if people coming back from the front began to consider them by and large trustworthy.

So a few things I feel deserve repeating:  

Mages are untrustworthy.  Even those nice friendly mages may have hidden agendas with powers unknown to normal mortals.  I feel this should be common superstition among mundanes and in all honesty MANY mage players are deep characters.  Just because you see a mage sitting in silks sipping an ale doesn't mean she isn't an evil backstabbing baby sacrificer.

Many gemmed PCs will actively strive for acceptance.  They weren't always mages and some downright hate what they are.  It's really the mundane's burden to provide the discrimination.  Mages can help this by being scary from time to time.

But most of all I feel it's the place of leader PCs, particularly the templarate, to set the tone for gemmed/commoner interaction.  I would personally like to see mages more restricted, forced to be subservient rather than treated like honored employees.  Templars wield great power, gemmed mages accept the responsibilities of their role because Allanak is the only place they can live openly.  The more slack the people in charge cut gemmed mages the more they will ICly take in terms of wealth, influence and freedoms.  The templarate, however, has the power to dictate the nature of this relationship.

If mages are going to be seen as scary by those who see them all the time, then they should do scary things. When is the last time a gemmed mage did something truly scary? Not any of my characters can remember. If there's going to be fear when people constantly see them, then that doesn't make sense if all that the magickers do is GOOD for them. There ceases to be a tangible fear when they make your food, heal your wounds, and light the darkness.

[SpyGuy]

If mages are going to be seen as scary by those who see them all the time, then they should do scary things. When is the last time a gemmed mage did something truly scary? Not any of my characters can remember. If there's going to be fear when people constantly see them, then that doesn't make sense if all that the magickers do is GOOD for them. There ceases to be a tangible fear when they make your food, heal your wounds, and light the darkness.

I strongly disagree.  Your character doesn't have to be rational, in fact most Zalanthians wouldn't be imo.  The magicks the gemmed show you are the ones they want you to see.  It's what goes on when the mages are alone or in their disturbing and strange temples that is the stuff of superstition.  BE SUPERSTITIOUS.  Here's a helpful link: http://www.armageddon.org/general/superstitions.html.  Just because you might OOCly know what a certain class can or can't do, just because your character has just experienced the benign aspects of a mage class does not in any way stop you from still fearing and distrusting them.  Hell, have your character get a stomach cramp after eating magicker food and blame it on a curse.  Have your PC afraid of approaching Vivaduan waters too closely because you think they'll try to pull you in.  BE CREATIVE.  Sometimes you have to actively look for ways to distrust mages, but in my opinion it's VERY IC to actively look for ways to distrust mages.

In addition, perhaps some mages should be scarier.  I would love to see small cuddly animals sold as componentry  :twisted:   But then again mages do plenty of very scary stuff, your PC is just currently not on the wrong end of it I suspect.  Many gemmed mages will try to play down their scary aspects in public, however, because it can often get them into trouble with the templarate.

[Cegar]

No, but it is hard to have irrational fear when all they do around you is good.

[SpyGuy]

No, but it is hard to have irrational fear when all they do around you is good.

It is hard, yes.  There is certainly difficulty there.  It's very hard to have rational fears.  But irrational fears are actually pretty easy.  It's rational to say magicker created food is good for you if it has good effects.  It's irrational to be afraid magicker food is going to turn you into a mage's slave or make you shit sand for the next month.  My argument is that perhaps more PCs should be creating and/or open to irrational fears and superstitions.

That said, again I'd repeat that even a fairly simple character would probably realize they're only seeing a part of the mage's power and that it isn't all creating food and passing out water.  And those darker elements, which exist in every single mage class I've seen, can easily inspire fear.  For a fearful commoner with social indoctrination to fear and distrust mages it should be very IC to focus on the bad and ignore or downplay the good.

[Angela Christine]

The ones that become gemmed are mages that want to fit in, get along and be a useful part of society.  Part of being allowed live nearly normal lives is agreeing not to do scary bad magick around the regular people.  Mages that violate the social contract quickly wind up dead.  Elves get way more leeway for doing bad shit than mages do, when a mage starts to go bad they usually get killed as quickly as possible.

Unaffiliated mages sometimes do scary stuff, but usually not where too many people will see it.


It wouldn't be realistic for gemmed mages to start doing in scary, obviously magickal stuff.  And it is very difficult to act scary without -doing- anything, you are as likely to look like a posturing buffoon as a real threat.  


AC

[bloodfromstone]

I just cannot begin to disagree enough with the sentiment that 'Nakkis aren't being scared enough of magickers. From what I've seen, most of the general populous disregards them as tools. They do their thing while we ignore them, and we'll call on them if it is necessary. Since magick is a very common occurance (there are standard camp echoes for it, so we can't just blame it on PCs), the mundanes have no choice but to become accustomed.

As a few people have mentioned, even those that are afraid and hateful can't do anything about it. I don't care how much you hate Joe Whiran, if Lord Templar Bobby catches you so much as raising an eyebrow at one of his useful pets, you're going to find yourself in a world of hurt. So, yes, a lot of us are afraid of mages. We're more afraid of templars.

For what it is worth, I haven't seen anyone asking to be magicked up so they can go kill scrabs or anything of the sort. I have seen people in positions of high power request specific enchantments. I have seen orders to cast some such spell on some such person so they can do whateverthedilly. That is why we have mages. That is why they are tools.

I can't speak for the Tuluki side of things, but I really think that complaining that no one is afraid of magick in the 'Nakki camp is like acting surprised that the shovel guy at the zoo isn't afraid of being stepped on by an elephant. We work with them every day. We have a healthy fear and respect for what they can and may do, and we avoid it as best we can. But if the dung shoveller pisses his pants and runs around with his arms in the air every time an elephant walks by, he's going to get fired. When they fire you in Allanak, they kill you.

[InsertCleverNameHere]

But if the dung shoveller pisses his pants and runs around with his arms in the air every time an elephant walks by, he's going to get fired.

Haha, that's too funny. I choked on my Mt Dew. And as to the context it was used, I agree whole-heartedly. Terrific analogy.

[jstorrie]

One very good point that has been brought up is just how many mages are active in the Allanaki camp, and how much they are being used. This may, perhaps, be the fault of Tulukis going around killing mundane Nak PCs off left and right, I don't know, but interaction with Allanaki mundanes is becoming pretty scarce. It's almost starting to become an exclusively Nak-gemmer versus Tuluk-templar fight which can't be that fun to mundanes on either side. Food for thought.

[Sephiroto]

I didn't have time to read every page, but I am seeing some argument about what they docs say we should do in regards in magick and the evolution of our roleplay regarding magick.  Yes, we are treating magicks different lately.  Geography, customs, religion, races, and so many other things change over time.  Maybe this will be one of those changes.  I don't expect everyone to become buddy-buddy with magickers as a result of recent events; however I see room for substantially less fear and mystery of them.

The facts are:
:arrow: People are being forcefully exposed to magick good and bad.
:arrow: Many people are becoming more acceptant of magickers or generally less scared of the mystery of magick.
:arrow: These people might go home and tell their stories about how magickers   aren't as scary as everyone thinks.
:arrow: The general populace might become more aware of magicker abilities.
      

Unless we make magick much less common, the Zalanthan image of a magicker may change.

[Angela Christine]

Unless we make magick much less common, the Zalanthan image of a magicker may change.

That isn't necessarily a bad thing, and is probably inevitable.  The image of magick has changed in the past and will continue to change in the future.

For Example:

Water mages are highly employable, amongst those who would hire any mage to begin with. As companions on journeys they can be worth incredible sums of money, and as permanent parts of clans or Houses worth even more. Due to the widespread unease generally felt around any mage, however, only large organizations generally will consider hiring a water elementalist.

Most of the magicker guild docs talk about how employable different varieties of elementalists are.  None of them say, "Won't be hired by anyone but Oash or a Templar, or occasionally one of the other Allanak Noble Houses.  That could be evidence that the population has become more intolerance towards elementalists since those docs were written.



One region of the game becoming more tolerant of elementalists wouldn't hurt anything.  People that are grudgingly willing to work with a Vivaduan will still be scared shitless of a Sorcerer.  Sorcery is the real villian.


Angela Christine

[Vesperas]

I mean, sure, it would be nice to be able to walk out on a road and actually worry more about raiders than that invisible Whiran...

but I don't think the answer would be to cut down on magickers.

If you want to maintain an intolerant atmosphere, its really up to the players who play the magickers, and to non-magickers keeping with the spirit of theme -- playing more terrorized-like PCs than indifferent ones.  

I don't think I'd really like to find more acceptance in any part of the game.  Magick is stirringly realistic in that its one of things that EVERYONE fears.  Kind of like nukes.  You can sort of feel safer thinking that your country can control nuclear weapons (or more terrified if your enemy does), but you'd still shit your pants if they tested it too close to home or in area you had to pass by area so often.

Of course, steps could be taken to show that the gemmers look tamer simply because the Templarate has that power -- they are the handlers holding the leash on those dogs -- and not because they are people too.

[Halaster]

Throughout the discussion I'm noticed two basic thoughts of what people think might be the outcome of how mages are viewed in Allanak after this is over.

1.  People will be more afraid because they've demonstrated their powers.

2.  People will be less afraid because they've done things to be helpful to their army.

I see no reason why both cannot happen.  Some commoners of Allanak will grow to hate them even more, because they heard tales of what happened and are now more scared.  Other commoners of Allanak will grow to hate them less, because they heard tales of what happened and are now less scared.  Different people react differently to different situations.  Heck, it might even polarize certain segements of the Allanaki population against each other as they sort of take sides in the "magicker debate".  If there even is a magicker debate.

I guess part of what I'm saying is that you can't really say "commoners will do this or that after the war", because there can very easiliy be multiple reactions.

[Tlaloc]

And to add: the War is far from over.

[moab]

Request to Halasturd:

Please stop misreporting on Allanak's losses.


Your Tuluki bias is most disturbing!

;-)