Should weight lifting affect stats?

[John]

NOTE: I'm not starting this thread to be another thread discussing whether or not there is an imbalance currently in the game, but just to see what people think of it (true, some people will probably make points about it fixing the "current imbalance". That's fine, just not the main purpose of the thread ).

Ouch's post in this thread about how he worked out IRL and became stronger, so shouldn't that happen in the game got me thinking about similar situations in the game. Your skills go up after certain things happen, and so does your HP, MVT and STUN after certain things happen, so why not stats as well?

The reason I think it would be a good addition to the game, is because the skills are obviously needed, but IMO the HP etc, isn't as direly needed, but the Imms felt they should add it  to the game, and it's a _very_ nice little feature, because it reflects IG actions with coded rewards, and yet isn't essential to succeed in the game.

Code-wise it would be very easy to grab the HP code, tweak it with minimal effort, then plonk it in the game (okay, okay, it's harder then that, and there could be issues that don't seem obvious because of how the code is written).

HOWEVER if it were to be added, without some changes, then it would probably make things easier then they are now, and I like things at the current level of difficulty. So in order to balance the system, there are several changes that could be made:
* Make the stats that you get with your initial roll and reroll have a higher chance of being on the lower end of the power spectrum.
* Make it so it's only possible to move up one "rating"^ with a lot of hard work, or even only half a rating.

I can't think of any other ideas, but I'm sure there's plenty. It could be used in conjunction with the fact stats increase on your birthday or in replacement of. Also, you could do a really low version, that doesn't give much of an advantage to players' (and either leave it as that or) use it as a trial run to see how people react. If people don't abuse it or become hung up over it, you could make it so you can increase your initial stats even more (but with a lot more hard work) and also make it so after a certain age certain stats become harder to maintain (e.g. When you reach 50, you have to exercise more to stop your strength from going down).

The main reason for implementing this IMO, is not to make people who "believe there's a current imbalance" happy but to add a little more depth to the game. I also don't expect this to be coded tomorrow, but thought it might be something worth considering.

^ a rating is "average"

[EDIT]: GODDAMNIT!!!!!! THIS IS REALLY PISSING ME OFF!!! I submit the thread, I vote, I edit some spelling errors, click submit, the poll dissapears, re-add it, and now I've doubled up every single option!!!!!!!

So sorry for this everyone. I don't know why the poll code hates me so much all of a sudden.  :cry:

[EDIT]: *submits apology*
*notices the poll has yet again dissapeared*
*closes browser, opens up again and poll is still gone*

Well this is fucked! I aint braving the poll again, so you'll have to live without a poll. *mutters about message boards hating him*

[creeper386]

I have no clue what I was planning on typing here... I ended up reading that OTHER post you mentioned. And then completely forgot everything...

Hmm... If your talking about stat manipulation through IC things... yes I'd probably agree that it should be done... But I think it should probably be put in quietly. Not told to the players. And probably be kept on the low end. Not a dramatic effect in change and shouldn't be obvious in how it's done or anything... You know what I mean?

Maybe not. But I think it should be done in a way that it's kept quiet... Perhaps have something similar to have something in reroll, well I don't know... Any idea for a stat change there could result in alot of similar stats similar...

I don't know..

Creeper

[John]

Oooh, with all the hassle with the poll I forgot to mention this system is already in place. You can RP doing exercises of all sorts, and send in a log and an Imm will consider boosting your stats. But I don't give one whit about stats, so I wouldn't do that, but I'd get enjoyment from having this change implemented, it'd also give more incentive for people to RP exercising (with coded items of course).

[Angela Christine]

I wouldn't necessarily want balance through lower starting stats, this would just "force" everyone to take up body building at the start of their carreers.  I'd rather see stats become more dynamic overall.

Weightlifting could very, very slowly raise your strenghth.  Being a scavenger or crafter who regularily totes loads that "VERY heavy" or above should do the same thing.  Running or preforming intricate tasks might very slowly raise your dexterity.  Reading would get you killed by a templar.     But perhaps using magick or the way could very slowly raise wisdom.  Naturally, when your character was first rolled, your starting stats would determine your maximum potential, which you can't exceed.  You couldn't go from Below Average to Absolutely incredible, no matter how much you practice, because some of that potential is set in childhood.

On the other hand, serious injuries would have a chance of slowly lowering your stats.   Getting many severe head wounds could make you less wise.  Many nasty arm or leg wounds could lower your strength.  Many bad hits to hands, wrists, ankles and feet could slowly sap your dexterity.  Bad hits to your neck, torso and waist would lower your endurance.  That's a little simplistic, I know, but game mechanics work better when they are simple.  Sitting in taverns for days on end might errode your physical abilities, and give you a flat butt.

AC

[Delerak]

I say stay in character and do what your character would do.  Exercise is such bull shit in Armageddon it isn't even funny.  I'd say half the populace is going to be either 1. fit and athletic shape 2. diseased or starving
and since stats DO matter so much, PERSONALLY I'd like to see FAR more bonuses given on the initial roles, (not the max) for race/class/weight/height.  If you make a 90 inch d-elf who weighs 9 ten-stone you should have exceptional strength, which is not high for a d-elf but that is a BIG elf, so why would he NOT have high strength?  I don't know how the code works, but having low stats sucks.

[John]

I say stay in character and do what your character would do.  Exercise is such bull shit in Armageddon it isn't even funny.  I'd say half the populace is going to be either 1. fit and athletic shape 2. diseased or starving

yes, and I like to think most people do stay IC, but sometimes things just don't occur to them, or they designate that job for something they do mostly while logged off.

You've got a point with the "everyone would be in shape or half-dead" statement. A lot of people probably would be pretty strong and in shape, but that's by Earth standards. When everyone is a certain way (such as in shape) then it becomes the norm, and some people will then extend beyond the norm and become even stronger, they'd do this by exercising more. When I play city roles that require me to be in shape, I exercise. I do hand exercises by pumping a rock. I lift things up and down, I do laps to let me run in long distances, and sprints over short distances. That way I'm doing that exercise IN ADDITION to the normal exercise everyone does by living, so ICly I can become stronger.

[Rindan]

Blah.  Stats being a bitch is just one of those things I think players need to suck and take.  If the thread complaining that the weakest playable race in the game is getting jacked because they can't fire a long bow like a human or dwarf can is not evidence enough that players already worry far too much, I don't know what is.  Personally, I would almost rather see the stats hidden at the expensive of having no clear way to determine ones abilities just to get people to take their minds off of it.

No offense, but I personally loath the idea.  I can just see every Byn member all of a sudden having a weight lifting addiction, or perhaps that human ranger that wears himself ragged all day coming home and doing pushups to make sure his strength stats is boosted as high as it can go.  I really don't see much to be gained.  If you are in an organization, then strength training should be in not because the code forces it to keep your stats maxed out, but because they mandate you do it.  When I was the leader of a military organization I took my troops on foot marchers and never expected us to have our MP start raising.  I did it because it was the IC thing to do.

[Lazloth]

The recent "Oh, I can't play my concept because my strength is so low" undercurrent running through the GDB is crap.

Deal or die.

[John]

No offense, but I personally loath the idea.

None taken. You loathe my idea and not me (AFAIK ). When I come up with a rebuttal against an argument, it's not cause I want to browbeat you into agreeing with me, but because I just like to discuss things a lot. (If I don't reply to something it's cause I can't come up with a rebuttal and quite probably agree with you).

I can just see every Byn member all of a sudden having a weight lifting addiction, or perhaps that human ranger that wears himself ragged all day coming home and doing pushups to make sure his strength stats is boosted as high as it can go.

Good point. I see this as a flaw in the player's mindset (no offence to anyone) rather then the idea. But every system is only as good as the people who use it. Doing the above would be, being a twink and should be dealt with as such. However I wouldn't want Imms spending all their time chasing twinks because of something that only adds a little bit of depth to the game. Good point with specifically mentioning the Byn, I think with adding this ex HnSers might find the transition more difficult. A way to avoid this is Creeper's keep-it-quiet method, but how could you keep it quiet? How quiet should it be kept?

Then again, maybe we're being a BIT too pessimistic. I'm sure A LOT of people said this about the scribble code, and now it probably goes unused for the most part, cause it's an RP prop and many probably view it as not worth the hassle.

[Kronus]

I'm sure A LOT of people said this about the scribble code, and now it probably goes unused for the most part, cause it's an RP prop and many probably view it as not worth the hassle.

For whatever it's worth, I've been finding the scribble code very useful for leaving little marks for myself so I can find my way home

[crymerci]

Um...I like the idea of how your character lives their life affects how their mind and body develops.

However...the idea of 'exercising' in a world like Zalanthas is fairly ludicrous to me. Every working Joe and Jane's body is likely to be stretched to the limit by everyday activity, 100+ degree temperatures daily, poor nutrition, etc. If you are a mercenary or a guard or in some sort of martial position, your training should be providing all the physical conditioning you need, and surely that will be reflected in your physique.

'Jogging', 'working out' and 'cross-training' are all very new concepts. As in, only decades old. Before that time the only people who might have done such things were professional athletes, and frankly I don't think Zalanthas has an equavalent of such, with the possible exception of gladiators. Soldiers and manual laborers got their physique by soldiering and laboring, not by using Bowflex or jogging in the park.

Anytime anyone mentions running for exercise or even the word 'exercise' itself in game, it just makes me blink and say "Huh?" Your mileage may vary, but to me, it's grossly out-of-genre and jarring.

[Carnage]

Stat boosts are something that are very rarely given out by immortals. If you think you should have one, ask yourself the following: Do you really need it? Average strength is just that. Average. The average of what Zalanthan, the hardier people, have. In my mind, stat boosts should only bring someone up to average. If you have poor strength and are a human warrior or ranger or something that depends on lugging things around, then go ahead and apply.

Second, have you played it out? Three or four instances of you doing push-ups really won't do it. You need something that's constant, played out, and requiring vigorous exercise.

And third, is the character long-lived enough to appreciate it? It doesn't seem practical to apply for a stat boost when you have a two or three day old character. Wait at least until you're six or seven. You've got time then to still roleplay out all the exercises, and you've proved you can be a long-lived character. Not only that, but waiting gives you time to ask yourself whether a low stat is a fun quirk or not.

Other than that, I say suck it up. You always take a chance when you reroll. My last character had average strength, exceptional agility, extremely good wisdom, and exception endurance. Yeah, pretty badass. However, I retired him because he ceased interesting me. In the long run,though, stats really don't matter.

[Master Z]

Why don't you just assume that the stats you have rely on the fact that your character already does whats neccessary to stay in shape? Be it emoted out when logged on or assumed to be done at some virtual time.

Its just as easy to say that there should be a code where if you don't exersize, your strength goes down, which I find equally silly.

Thats all for today.

[X-D]

Only thing I have say on this is, Since there are already coded things in game that can Lower certain stats perm,  then I see no reason why the code should not be in place to do the opposite.

[Fedaykin]

If you make a 90 inch d-elf who weighs 9 ten-stone you should have exceptional strength, which is not high for a d-elf but that is a BIG elf, so why would he NOT have high strength?  I don't know how the code works, but having low stats sucks.

I disagree.  If height and weight all the sudden started to affect your strength rolls, suddenly every human would be 78 inches and 9 ten-stone.  The rolls must be kept seperate to keep a balance.

Working out is such a modern day concept in my opinion.  In the middle ages and such, there were no gyms, no lifting weights etc.  You trained for battle and that was it.  You got stronger through swinging your sword and marching in armor, not by working out on an ancient ancestor of a bowflex.

I'm not opposed to being able to raise your stats, but lifting weights isn't the way to do it.  Better that if you're in combat alot, swining around heavy weapons all the time, you will have the -chance- to have your stregnth -slowly- rise.

[John]

Okay, I see my original post got mis-understood (not suprising ).

I wasn't advocating exercise being the (only or even main) way to raise stats, but more on the lines of what AC said with lifting heavy things, because you need too, or by swinging your sword around a lot, and using a sword that you need two hold with both hands, well after a long time of using it you'd eventually be able to hold it one hand because your strength would have increased (not saying stats should increase that much, was just thinking of an IC way to explain it).

As for not exercising. What sort of training techniques would be more realistic within Zalanthas then? I thought that I was being really clever thinking of doing sprints and squeezing rocks to harden your hands etc and it not giving a coded bonus. Obviously mainly younger people would do that sort of thing though. So, just some general ideas on more Zalanthan military training techniques would be good (I don't mean specific in sword techniques, but more strength wise, or wouldn't it be done at all?).

[Angela Christine]

I'm not opposed to being able to raise your stats, but lifting weights isn't the way to do it.  Better that if you're in combat alot, swining around heavy weapons all the time, you will have the -chance- to have your stregnth -slowly- rise.

To avoid being too combat-centric, other muscle-intesive activities should have as much effect.  Not weight lifting, I agree that is pretty unlikely.  But chopping down trees, hauling loads of stone and lumber, certain kinds of crafting, and maybe even pulling a bow  :wink:  are going to require strength as much as combat does.

Most of these activities, but especially combat and toating "unbelievably heavy" loads, should also have a chance of lowering your strength.  How many people do you know who have a "bad back" by the time they are in their 30s because they hoisted a heavy load incorrectly?  Practically everyone I know claims to have a bad back, but I few of them are probably just lazy.     Maybe this is already covered by the aging code, when you get past a certain point your strength starts dropping, reflecting the raggedy condition of your body.

Just for the record, while I enjoy discussing the possibilities of the world affecting your coded attributes, it's not a big deal to me.  The system works fine the way it is, in my opinion.  I just enjoy discussing systems.  I was a regular participant in a White Wolf discussion group for years without every playing one of their games (I bought some of the books, I just never played).  Game mechanics ammuse me, with their crunchy on the outside, chewy on the inside goodness.

AC

[Rindan]

Okay, I see my original post got mis-understood (not suprising ).

I wasn't advocating exercise being the (only or even main) way to raise stats, but more on the lines of what AC said with lifting heavy things, because you need too, or by swinging your sword around a lot, and using a sword that you need two hold with both hands, well after a long time of using it you'd eventually be able to hold it one hand because your strength would have increased (not saying stats should increase that much, was just thinking of an IC way to explain it).

As for not exercising. What sort of training techniques would be more realistic within Zalanthas then? I thought that I was being really clever thinking of doing sprints and squeezing rocks to harden your hands etc and it not giving a coded bonus. Obviously mainly younger people would do that sort of thing though. So, just some general ideas on more Zalanthan military training techniques would be good (I don't mean specific in sword techniques, but more strength wise, or wouldn't it be done at all?).

I actually think that people are misjudging exercise in the ancient world.  There was exercise in the a ancient world.  Sparta immediately comes to mind as an example.  The routine was for everyone to get out of bed early in the morning and do calisthenics naked.   In fact, the world calisthenics comes from the Greek words beauty and strength.  It should also be pointed out though that Sparta at the time of doing this an almost purely warrior society.

I think it is completely realistic for your Byn sergeant to make you run, lift rocks, or do whatever sick punishments he feels is necessary.  That said, I imagine any sort of exercise would be focused around combat, and that most people outside of military organizations would not work in this manner.  So, taking your troops while they are loaded down with full gear on a jog makes perfect sense.  That is something they would have to do in combat.  Further, the exercise would be much cruder then what we do today.  You wouldn't make sure you work each muscle.  You would lift that heavy rock because if you do it enough, the reasoning is that you will get used to it.  Your average Joe Blow ranger on the other hand would never do such a thing.  He needs all the energy he has for work.  Expending energy training or working out a painful luxury.  Only people who are forced to and have the extra resources to do it would do it, in my opinion.

[Anonymous]

Working out is not a new concept.  The ancient Greeks went to to gymnasium every day.  They did isometric and calisthenic excercises, weights may be a fairly new idea but working out definately is not.  I would say that what we've done on earth in the past is a mute point anyways because we're talking about Zalanthas.  I would like there to be some way to control which stat is the highest or something because despite what many people have said low strength really can damage a character concept.

[creeper386]

I personally thing, for those people who think stats ruin character concepts, are looking at it funny. More often then not, I do sometimes rely on stats for a character concept, but the more I rely on stats, the more I'm disapointed when a finally get down to his final stats. Now when I plan a character not worrying about stats, more often I'm alot more surprised and happy with it, because I wasn't relying on anything specific.

Now, like I said with any sort of stat modifying from in the game, I beleive it'd have to be introduced with no sort of information given to players, period. Sooner or later people might start notice their stats changing at times other then a birthday, but they aren't going to know why most likely or what specifically they did, which I think is the way to do it so the characters continue going about what they would do normally.

With the loosing stats because something bad happens, I don't really like, more so because I like the player to have alittle control over their character under circumstances. Now, I already RP injuries, let them change my character and effect them in the long run, but I don't beleive I'd like a code that handles it. Same reason why I'm against broken bone code or things like that, because when it's coded even with a LOW chance of it happening, it's going to happen alot. I can see all the Byn walking about with crippled stats, and just about every bone shattered, and well, on terms of OOCily, I think the player of Byn characters get enough crap without having alot of crippled characters, and it's not just the Byn, but when people mention powergaming they seem to bring up the Byn automatically, so I figured I would say this because Byn don't deserve barely any of what they get let alone alot of coded problems, the coded death is a big hindrance already.


Creeper who hmm... Doesn't know.

[Sephiroto]

This is probally not the right place to post this but...

Right now I've got a character with fairly well rounded stats.  The thing I dont like is, when you create a character's build to be small and light, focusing on speed rather than strength, or big and heavy, focusing on strength, but you get lower than 'good' in the stats that would seem logical for your character.

It pains me to see a short, six or seven ten-stone human/elf/whatever be stronger than the tall, nine ten-stone guy.

I think also, that perhaps classes should have some effect as to how their stats are rolled.  From what I know (I could be wrong) a merchant has the same chance at being as strong as a warrior per se.  While the merchant may be carrying heavy loads now and then, they're usually sitting on the arse and crafting.  The warrior, on the otherhand, is working out in the ring, hunting, etc. constantly.

Personally I'd like to see rangers as being, in general, more agile.
I'd like to see warriors as more robust.
And I'd like to see merchants and magicker types to be more intellegent.

Because face it, in a rough place like Zalanthas, a stupid, uncharismatic merchant is not going to survive.
A weak guard/soldier is a dead one.
And slow thieves/assassins/rangers, are ineffective ones.

My ideas is to have these types of classes, with the corresponding attributes no lower than good.  Or perhaps just  a bonus.  Then on the otherhand, cap the opposite stats and prevent them from being abnormally high.

Just my two sid.

[Delirium]

To be honest, I don't really like that. You're thinking inside the class.. remember your character really isn't limited by class. Just because you are a ranger doesn't mean you have to spend all your time prowling around outside the city and hunting animals. Just because you're a warrior doesn't mean you're going to be big and buff. What happens when you want to play the inept, scrawny kid thats life dream is to be a great warrior someday? Or the fat, stubborn idiot that has managed to convince herself she's Zalanthas' best merchant? I dunno, just some thoughts. Your characters really aren't defined by your stats - just take what you have, work with it, play up their strengths, work with their flaws. No one's perfect, some were born on the shallow end of the gene pool, some were gifted at birth, so on and so on. It's always more rewarding to play a realistic character than it is a superhero. At least, IMHO.

Another thing is, that after you get a certain amount of time on your character, stats seem to have less and less of an actual effect on your character.

[Sephiroto]

Of course of course.  But my only concern is when creating a flexible character, for instance, but I get poor agility or something.

Its not very cool to create a character with a certain background with stats that do not reflect it.

For example, the fatass merchant.  What kind of fatass merchant would have extremely good or absolutely incredible agility?  None, but it can happen.

Just my two sid

[John]

For example, the fatass merchant.  What kind of fatass merchant would have extremely good or absolutely incredible agility?  None, but it can happen.

True, (and I hope I don't get killed for this) but IIRC an Imm said one time that the Imms are more then happy to tweak stats once rolled IF you provide good enough reasoning for it (and don't make a habit of it).

You'd also probably have to offer less then good reasoning to have your stats lowered (and you could also probably make a habit of it).

[Carnage]

True, (and I hope I don't get killed for this) but IIRC an Imm said one time that the Imms are more then happy to tweak stats once rolled IF you provide good enough reasoning for it (and don't make a habit of it).

What imm said that, and when?

From my understanding, they don't like to mess around with stats.