What if....Shops

[Anonymous]

Just an idea but what would happen if only the merchant class PCs could sell goods to shops. Every other class would basically be left with:

1. Make a deal with a PC merchant
2. Get a Job with a mechant or noble house
3. Find other "jobs"
4. Live off the land
5. Beg.

I am just wondering if this would realistically enhance the harshness of surviving as an indy in Zalanthas, therefore enhancing the experience, along with making mechant classes more valuable.

[John]

No. Merchants already have bonuses to selling to shops (broader range of sellable items, better haggling), what logical reason could there be for making only merchant class sell to shops? A shop would be willing to buy an item from anyone who has what they want. And if the person isn't a professional merchant, they can get a better price.

[Majikal]

I don't think that would be a very nice trade off, some people play indies simply because they don't play enough to wanna get involved with a clan or play at off peak times where most clans are empty of life so this might ruin a bit of their fun, though I would say highly encouraging pc to pc trade is a good thing.

[ale six]

Making restrictions like "only merchants can sell to shops" doesn't seem realistic to me anymore than "only warriors can equip swords".

On the other hand I'd be for this if we applied it in a different way, such as improving the haggle skill so that PCs trying to sell things without a decent enough haggle would be really, really screwed in terms of what prices they got.

[Anonymous]

bad idea. For all of the reasons above.

[Anonymous]

I should mention my suggestion is the extreme form of it. Even so i can come up with a couple reasons why in the world of zalanthas "merchant" would be the only ones with the connections and they savy to actually sell something for profit. I am sure if i put guns to your head you'd come up with even more.  

However since its quite easy to make logical sense of almost anything codewise in a fantasy world  i am kinda focused with the gameplay issues.I don't see how this would effect people that are independent other then them being poor, which is what they should be unless they have found other means of making money criminal or otherwise. Most will still be able to survive its just that the easiest means of getting that expensive armour is closed off to them.

The problem i see with improving haggle is that some people(twinks) might feel the urge to actually go out and do more damage to the world inorder to make the coin they can now.

 i kinda would just like commoners to actually be poor and roleplaying surviving as oppposed to choosing to roleplay surviving as a poor person. I know the answer most people have is just go roleplay a really poor person, like a begger, pretend that it isn't really easy to survive in the world. However just like the funnest times in Arm. is when you knee deep in a plot and crap lands on your character's lap whether you or they want it or not, it also be nice if more of the gameplay threw more crap on my character's lap. For example since as a warrior/thug i can't find anyone to sell my three stumps to...desperation will set in and i will either have to mug someone or beg inorder to survive. I know its like saying RP or Die but trust be your character being in deep shit is alot more fun then just pretending to be in it.

[Anonymous]

The point of an NPC merchant is not to ruin the PC merchant's sad little day by stealing his business. The point of an NPC merchant is to serve the duty of the PC merchant when either a) he is not around, or b) he does not exactly represent the market in question.

For example, if you can't actually (in code) craft anything with the hide of a foobar, and foobars are the only thing that joe ranger knows how to kill, that does not mean that 99% of the marketplace isn't covered in stalls, tents, and stands furnished with tanned foobar hide.

By forcing PC merchants to pay for this, and not get anything back for their effort, you're bankrupting the merchants, not just the poor desert slobs.

Furthermore, you're suggesting that, just because someone plays an independent in an area that is not well populated by PCs, or who plays mostly during off-peak time should be penalized ICly with poverty because  a merchant of X house who actually buys what the independent/off-peak player has to sell is not logged in.

This is just an extremely bad idea.

Really.

[John]

Even so i can come up with a couple reasons why in the world of zalanthas "merchant" would be the only ones with the connections and they savy to actually sell something for profit.

Some crafters (regardless of class) already can't make a profit, so this is already represented in game.

I don't see how this would effect people that are independent other then them being poor

Actually it would make them starving as it would add another layer to the them getting coin. At the moment there are 2 layers for a crafter. Themself and the shopkeeper. Each of them has to make a profit and so the newbie crafter is normally the one who gets shafted. If you add a third layer, newbie crafters will get shafted even more. That's the gameplay issue. Another one is if you don't have a merchant class person whose on friendly terms with you (quite likely to happen for off-peakers) then your SOL.

which is what they should be unless they have found other means of making money criminal or otherwise.

I disagree. I have quite often made somewhat successful independant parents in my background and the staff have never called me up on it. There are also merchants with wagons, they can't be that poor, and I doubt they all belong to Houses or are all involved in criminals.

Most will still be able to survive its just that the easiest means of getting that expensive armour is closed off to them.

I disagree. All but the most highly skilled are also going to need to make and sell quite a bit if they are going to afford:
* rent each month (cheapest is 500 'sid)
* food and water
* Spare clothing (and armor)
* Cleaning supplies
* Coin for drinks from the local tavern
* Entertainment coin for gambling

The problem i see with improving haggle is that some people(twinks) might feel the urge to actually go out and do more damage to the world inorder to make the coin they can now.

Damage? What are you talking about?

i kinda would just like commoners to actually be poor and roleplaying surviving as oppposed to choosing to roleplay surviving as a poor person.

Maybe old time players know how to maximize their crafting to spend as little as possible and to sell it to the most profitable NPC, but a lot of us don't. We do roleplay commoners poor and surviving.

[Cenghiz]

If a merchant has a connection, let him have it.. IG!

When you're a warrior, you don't have maxxed out slashing weapons. Same point, no merchant starts out with connections. They form them IG.

And being only a subguild means you won't ever be good at it. It should not mean you won't ever be able to sell it.

I'm an off-peaker for some more time and I'm saying a big "NO!" to this idea. It will damage the game in many aspects. Like...

- Offpeak players will be dead meat if not merchant.
- It is going to be real hard to imitate a merchant. It's already hard with all folks asking questions in Cavilish.
- A magicker with a crafter subguild is a usual must for players who want a solitary mage. I want to be able to play a druidic magicker who frequents into a city once in a month, sells and goes back to his solitude with things he needs.
- Same, shady characters who want to act normal with the subguild's help will be doomed.
- It's unrealistic itself. Why can't I sell if a merchant can? I always thought guilds are not important in ARM.
- Tribals? A tribal wouldn't possibly join a clan and he wouldn't possibly sell to PCs easily. How would he survive?
- Elves? No elf can join a clan easily.

That's all I could think of within a blink of eye. I can't find even one reason why noone but a merchant should sell to NPCs.

[Xygax]

If the suggestion is that only people who have registered as a merchant in a city can engage in legal trade, that seems interesting.

If the suggestion is that only people who chose guild "merchant" in character creation can engage in trade codedly, that seems very silly and arbitrary.

Part of our RP-oriented environment is that your coded guild doesn't restrict the things you can codedly do very much (excluding a few obvious cases, like mages, though even here there may be ways around the "rules).  Someone who has chosen the burglar guild should very easily be able to pass themselves off as anything else, it's half the fun of playing and can be a very necessary aspect of a given character that they be able to emulate another.

-- X

[John]

If the suggestion is that only people who have registered as a merchant in a city can engage in legal trade, that seems interesting.

Agreed. Although if a shopkeeper can only buy from licensed merchants, can PC merchants buy from unlicensed people? If not, then that introduces a barrier for PC-to-PC trading.

[ale six]

If the suggestion is that only people who have registered as a merchant in a city can engage in legal trade, that seems interesting.

Agreed. Although if a shopkeeper can only buy from licensed merchants, can PC merchants buy from unlicensed people? If not, then that introduces a barrier for PC-to-PC trading.

Sure they can, why not? It just might not be legal.

Code Select Expand

The shady guy steps out of a dark alley and opens his long, black trenchcoat.

The shady guy whispers to you, in sirihish:
   "Hey you, wanna buy some hides?"

[Anonymous]

ooo...very good points xygax...I like your version of the idea better making registered merchant.

A registered merchant would be the only ones who would be able to sell to coded shops. PC to PC trade would still be completely open of course. The temperate(or kurac offical) could take care of assigning out licenses, for non-peek time players they could wish up.

Of course a well spoken, well dressed human, would probably have a better chance then a smelly byn type character. Though that, costs, profit percentages given to lincese providers would be at the complete descresion of said license providers.

I think if your character can afford food and water then she/he is doing well enough. Everything extra is probably spent on drinks/whores/spice. I still think people will be able to afford what they need (ex.armour/weapons) just that it will change from buying the best that they can find to buying the best they can afford.

As for off peek time players assuming they can't live off the land or get a licence to sell or find any other means of getting the nessasary sid to buy basic nessesities then yeah they would be in a pickle...for the most part they would be doomed to a slow agonizing death that only Armageddon could provide. Its not a bad thing just a cool fact of the game...however they could still wish up and ask to roleplay begging or mugging i would assume.

Aside from promoting PC to PC trading and reducing overall sid in commoners pockets, it would greatly improve the value of small "quest" rewards usually given by nobles. Aside from good RP there would be more in game value to having the "honor" of interacting with the rich folk basically.

[John]

Sure they can, why not? It just might not be legal.

Code Select Expand

The shady guy steps out of a dark alley and opens his long, black trenchcoat.

The shady guy whispers to you, in sirihish:
   "Hey you, wanna buy some hides?"

Still has an extra barrier for PC to PC trading.

[John]

I think if your character can afford food and water then she/he is doing well enough. Everything extra is probably spent on drinks/whores/spice.

IMO your average commoner has an apartment (or works for a House/Byn/Militia). The whole "living out of your backpack" happens nowhere near as much virtually as with PCs IMO.

I still think people will be able to afford what they need (ex.armour/weapons) just that it will change from buying the best that they can find to buying the best they can afford.

I have never bought the best I could find.

Its not a bad thing just a cool fact of the game...however they could still wish up and ask to roleplay begging or mugging i would assume.

Obviously not an off-peak player. Making off-peak players impossible to play all but a small amount of roles isn't "a cool fact." It sucks. We're already limited as is. Don't limit us further. Having said that, having to buy a license wouldn't limit off-peakers. I just took issue with your dismissive attitude towards limiting roles even more for off-peakers

[Jherlen]

I think if your character can afford food and water then she/he is doing well enough. Everything extra is probably spent on drinks/whores/spice.

IMO your average commoner has an apartment (or works for a House/Byn/Militia). The whole "living out of your backpack" happens nowhere near as much virtually as with PCs IMO.

This is inconsistent with the idea that most commoners tend to make about 300 sid per year, which I had thought was a fairly widely accepted number. Apartments alone are usually at least 500 sid per IC month on the low end. Unless VNPC commoners have some kind of special vnpc discount.

Optimally, I'd like to see PC-to-PC trading be someone's first best choice, with selling stuff off to NPCs a distant second, only if they can't find a PC to sell to.

I think this could be accomplished by making PC crafters have more crafting options, as well as adding crafting recipes to more of the Merchant House wares, so the PCs in those houses can actually seek crafters and supplies to make their orders, rather than just having them loaded. If Amos Salarr can take your hides and bones and turn them into Salarri Superarmor Version #1267, which he can sell for 1000 sid, he'll probably be happy to pay you 100 sids for the supplies. If the npc at the shop will only give you 50 if you haggle well, problem solved.

I also liked the idea of making haggle more necessary to turn a profit from npc shopkeepers. I didn't really understand the argument that doing that would cause more "damage".

Ultimately I think the core issue here is that some people think it's too easy to make money as an independent if you know what you're doing. I'd agree with that and I'd be all for changes to either 1) diminish that or 2) at least make it so the people are getting rich through PC interaction and not npc shops.

[Anonymous]

ditto on the annual salary.

If there's no way for you to sell hides to earn the money to pay for the license, you're SOL from the point of login.

Especially if merchanting licenses are still like 250 obsidian.  That's nothing to a Kadian, but for a starting character who has to acquire a weapon and, ideally some water and starting food-- also given the assumption of a 300 sid per year salary...

I think the numbers would need to be reviewed for something like that to work.  If NPC merchants will only -purchase- from people who are registered as merchants in the city, you're pretty much guaranteeing that 80% of all trading is occurring "black market". Unless you enforce that, and bottleneck all economy in the game, the focus on legitimate trade then loses all it's teeth.

Think about all the trading going on in tribal markets, for an example.  What tribal is going to have enough sid laying around to formally register as a merchant?

[Delirium]

I think if your character can afford food and water then she/he is doing well enough. Everything extra is probably spent on drinks/whores/spice.

IMO your average commoner has an apartment (or works for a House/Byn/Militia). The whole "living out of your backpack" happens nowhere near as much virtually as with PCs IMO.

This is inconsistent with the idea that most commoners tend to make about 300 sid per year, which I had thought was a fairly widely accepted number. Apartments alone are usually at least 500 sid per IC month on the low end. Unless VNPC commoners have some kind of special vnpc discount.

I think 300 sid per year is way too low.  300 sid per month sounds more accurate.

VNPC commoners in Zalanthas would usually have an entire family in that 500 sid apartment.  If Amos, Jane, Jane's sister Janet, Amos's cousin Joe, and Amos & Jane's sole surviving kid John are all living in that apartment bringing in 100 'sid a month, that's 500 coming in.  If the apartment costs 500 sid that's every single sid going toward the apartment rent.  

If they're bringing in 300 sid per month, that's 1500, but wait, 500 of that goes to rent. Flour, fruit, and the occasional splurge on meat, enough to last an entire month, will cost at least another 500 from the grocer's.  Then you have 500 left.  Two barrels of water will knock that out completely, unless you get the not-so clean kind, then you might have 100 or 200 left over as a buffer.  You would still be scraping by and barely be able to save anything up at all, but it would be survivable.

We can try to say "commoners only make 300 sid a year" until we're blue in the face, but considering the actual prices of things in-game; i.e. flour, water, ale, clothing, apartment rents, there's no way they'd survive on that.

[Anonymous]

I really didn't mean to sound dismissive of off-peek player, i tend to be one myself.

I would estimate people make anywhere from 50-300 sid a month actually. Sometimes its enough to survive sometimes its not, only people making 300+ are the people working for houses and those are usually 'elite' jobs that the general masses don't get. Usually in game it seems the houses are always trying to recruit members but really (this was a while ago opinions might have changed) Icly your super lucky to land a job with a house and get steady pay.I usually choose who i am going to try work for at character creation or be an indy and try to stick with the decision to enforce that concept.

Also just because the apartment we can rent code wise for our toons cost 500 sid/ month to rent doesn't mean there aren't worse..err cheaper places to live. Also cleaning and eatting every day is for the rich. :wink:

Even as indy non-ranger, i find i have to try very hard to actually remain from getting rich, its even harder if i have skin or a crafting skill on my character and want to train it realistically. Course i will eventually find a corpse (I LOVE FINDING CORPSES, you never know whats inside ) and that makes $$$. There is only so much spice my chars can snort and so much booze it can drink and he eats like a noble and still has plenty of $$ saving up over time.I can only imagine what it would be like if a person was just hording coin. I've tried selling through PCs and they just tell me to go sell at shops. :cry:

The hardest part of getting a license would be convincing the templar you deserve one, he could grant you it for an ic month, see if your able to make any money and charge you at the end for a  percentage of your profits and maybe extra for renewal or like i said completely at the templars discretion.

Truthfully my poorest chars have been those that work for houses and thats just wrong from an IC point of view. The main focus of most commoners in zalanthas is trying to survive in a harsh world, I truely feel that most indy players get deprived of this wonderful and challenging experience by having too much sid thrown at them too fast. Again i don't mind getting rich with an indy i'd just love it if it was through RPing with other PCs

[MorganChaos]

No.

[John]

Again i don't mind getting rich with an indy i'd just love it if it was through RPing with other PCs

Then don't sell to NPCs. Seems simple to me.

[Hymwen]

Noone would ever work for 300 'sid a year... that's nuts. There's what, 600-something days in a Zalanthan year? Who would do any kind of work for half a 'sid per day? You'd have to work for 60 days to earn enough for a mug of ale in the Bard's Barrel.

Personally, I do think that wages in general are on the low side. But some jobs allow you to make extra 'sid through commissions, allowing you to work on the side and things like that, so while you can still earn a fair living from most jobs, I think it's silly that the core paycheck doesn't make up for most of what your PC will earn in a month/year.

The reason that independants can become so rich is that the ways of making money (which almost exclusively requires leaving the gates of your city, something that almost every job I've heard of disallows) are so easy and with nearly limitless supply. Kill a beast and skin it, you'll get food, a skin that you can sell for sometimes more than 50 'sid, bones and other crafting materials. You can go mining and rake in hundres of 'sid per RL day. Salt grebbing with a high forage skill? You can bring in a good 300 'sid per run! And I think most prices reflect that income, not the guy who makes 200-300 'sid per month, who can barely afford the cheapest room available in the city.

[Dre]

Again i don't mind getting rich with an indy i'd just love it if it was through RPing with other PCs

Then don't sell to NPCs. Seems simple to me.

Truthfully i kinda hate that logic, having to pretend...I mean for the most part the standard of roleplaying in this game is great but its even better when the code(or lack there of) supports that standard.

There are a ton of ways for an indy to make coins, too much coin too fast. And this is without twinking...without going out there and killing every animal you can find or forage/cutting trees/crafting for hours on end. Btw doing this is ICly causing "damage" since zalanthians are eco-aware.

The best coded skill for making sid in Zalanthas should be sirihish.  Unfortunately since there is rarely a need for others to trade they usually don't and that means the person pretending he can't use shops is screwed(Icly and oocly) and that means the code is actually denying that person good RP. i can't tell you how many times i've tried to sell/buy from a person only to get told to use the npc shop. :evil:

[John]

Unfortunately since there is rarely a need for others to trade they usually don't and that means the person pretending he can't use shops is screwed(Icly and oocly)

Well IMO if you're playing a merchant you should be selling to shops extremely rarely. IMO (V)NPC merchants rarely do it, instead selling to customers.

[Jherlen]

For the sake of argument let's say 300 a month then (puts things in line with the lower paying House jobs, at least). I'm pretty sure I'd read somewhere else the number was much lower, but I'm too lazy to search.

Even then, either House wages are too low or it's too easy to make lots of money as an independent, because with decent playing time you could make 300 sid in one or two RL days, as Hymwen pointed out.

I'd like to see the economy scaled to make more sense, where the best and highest-paying jobs are with the Houses. When the super hunterforagers can pull in 1000 sids an RL week on their own, there's less incentive for them to join clans. This isn't in line with how things should be ICly.

Yes, there are tradeoffs to being an indy which might warrant a slightly higher risk vs. reward for them, but I still think there's too much disparity, and I certainly don't think prices should be based around what independents can afford rather than what House workers can.