Lord Whiran Fancypants? (Question about an uh-oh!)

[BlackStabbath]

Heyo, me again, still working on my addiction and indulging in the helpfiles to keep me from looking like a complete noob while I learn the world with experience. =D

Was reading over the Nobility helpfiles and the Magicker FAQ, and it kind of dawned on me of the possibility that a noble child, especially in the South, might possibly be born with magicker in it's blood.

How would that be handled?

-Would the child be killed?
-Would it simply be sent off to a temple, and stripped of it's name, with any who speak of it paying dearly?
-Would the mother/father/both be blamed and perhaps outcast/killed by their  House?
-And if certain of the above were to happen, and the child lived, would it ever be a viable concept that the PC be born of noble blood and no about it, but be forbid to speak it, while only certain higher-ups would know about it?

Though I suppose such questions are geared more towards Allanak, where from what it seems, in Tuluk, both child and mother might disappear, because no self-respecting Tuluki noble would hae a common play-toy, and you know the father wouldn't take the blame. =P

Discus.

EDIT: Err, and when you're done with discus, feel free to discuss. >.<

[Halaster]

Basically, the average commoner would have no idea what happens to them.  No one's really heard of a mage noble, so you can surmise what you want from that.

[ale six]

Most (but not all) magicker elementalists seem to display physical traits giving away their element. (This isn't a steadfast rule, just a trend I've noticed, so it may not be true in all cases.) If a child DID display any sort of mutation or magickal ability, though, my guess would be that the nobility would most likely kill it. The docs say something somewhat related:

Midwives are accustomed to the making the choice whether or not a child should live, depending on the lethality of his or her mutations, a fact that explains the high incidence of "stillbirths" among the nobility, who are less tolerant of appearance outside the norm.

I don't know what would happen to the parents, but having your child turn out to be a mutant/suspected magicker would most likely not be good.

If anyone of noble lineage were ever found out to have magickal abilities, the scandal of the matter would be something that even in Allanak could probably have MAJOR reprecussions for a House. Nobility are supposed to be seen as better people simply because of their blood -- if that blood is breeding magickers, what are other nobles and the city going to think? If I were a senior noble, I wouldn't take the risk of leaving a magicker in my House alive to possibly become trouble later.

Of course, you could always special app and see if the staff would buy it.

[Larrath]

I won't answer most of these questions since they might be a little too IC.

As a PC concept, magicker nobles aren't accepted because, in the past, this apparently resulted in nobles just locking themselves in their rooms and spam-casting instead of doing noble things such as maintaining their clan and, uh, mudsexing.
Technically speaking, magicker nobles appear to be possible in Zalanthas, but they're extremely rare, also because any noble caught with the ability would be disposed of at the earliest opportunity.

As far as PCs go, magicker nobles aren't accepted.  With that said, nothing is ever impossible - with enough responsibility, planning and coordination with the staff, it's probably possible to make an elf that rides kanks (or, alternately, a kank that rides elves), too.

[Synthesis]

I'm just wondering why people seem to think that a noble elementalist would be killed.

Keep in mind that nobles aren't as uneducated as commoners and hire magickers openly.  From this, we can surmise that they are probably a little more savvy as to how to treat them.  Magick isn't necessarily considered abominable by the (Southern) Nobility, because they're educated enough not to irrationally fear it.  Now, if you have a young elementalist who is related to you by blood and who has everything to gain by -following the rules- and -not rocking the boat-, why wouldn't you let them hang around and do their magickal things for the benefit of your House, as long as he's not doing anything that would be considered inappropriate?

The only reason I can surmise is if Tektolnes or the Templarate issued a decree at some time in the past that all magickers of Noble blood are to be killed.  Failing this, I'd imagine that Noble-born magickers would be treated exceptionally well, given access to all of the most expensive components and instructed by the most experienced elementalist masters.  

Now, they might not be allowed to marry or produce (official) offspring, and they might have certain House-imposed restrictions on their movements, etc., but I see only one good reason why they'd be killed outright (see above) and I've never encountered any information that would lead to the conclusion that it is the case.

Elementalists are extremely powerful and extremely useful tools.  Having one completely and unquestioningly loyal to your cause (as a blood relation could be, if raised properly) is about the nicest thing anyone could drop in your lap.

Hell, if I were a Noble, I'd be secretly getting it on with magicker chicks and spawning my own little bastard magicker black ops platoon.  Maybe let one of the senior nobles in on the scheme and get a little extra pension to support my magicker spawn.  Then impress the entire House with my ability to get things done, etc.  It'd be a long-term plan (have to let the little bastards develop, after all), but damn--if everything went according to the plan, it'd be mighty nice, indeed.

[Marauder Moe]

If magicker nobles aren't killed, then they must not ever be born in the first place, because (as stated) no one has ever heard of one.

Only one house openly and frequently hires magickers.  Policies for the other houses can change, but magicker hiring (open or otherwise) is very rare among them.

Education doesn't neccesarily cure fear or hate, especially when the educated truth about magickers is that they ARE freaking dangerous.

Commoners are to believe that nobles are superior.  Commoners are to believe that magickers are tainted.  A magicker noble would be a contradiction.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Though I suppose such questions are geared more towards Allanak, where from what it seems, in Tuluk, both child and mother might disappear, because no self-respecting Tuluki noble would hae a common play-toy, and you know the father wouldn't take the blame. =P

No actually.  Sexual discrimination isn't standard fare on Zalanthas.

I just thought I'd point that out.

[Synthesis]

Marauder Moe:

1. The fact that no-one has ever heard of something does not imply that this something does not exist.

2. Only one House openly hires magickers on a long-term, salaried basis.  Other Houses (even Merchant Houses) will hire them for other tasks--maybe not openly, but they will hire them, nonetheless.

3. If Tektolnes says the magickers are okay, then the Nobility can't really do much, other than agree.  Given that they must accept their existence, it seems that they would do more than simply come to terms with the fact:  they'd want to use it to their advantage.  The way to do this is -not- to shun them and maintain complete ignorance.  Noble Houses didn't become powerful by doing silly things like allowing fear and hate to govern their actions.  Yeah, they're dangerous, but it's a manageable dangerous, like muls, half-giants, poison, and the legion of commoners running around with sharp-edged and pointy objects.

4. A magicker noble would only seem to be a contradiction to a commoner.  Hence keeping them isolated.  Hell, most Nobles would probably like never to leave their estates, anyway.  The ones that do are simply doing so to maintain their power and influence and to get things done.  If you didn't have to worry about your influence, and the only things you needed to get done involved study and practice casting...you'd never need to leave your estate, would you?  As long as you weren't causing earthquakes in the estate or setting the furniture on fire, the slaves and servants wouldn't even know your secret.  You'd just be "the odd young Lord who never leaves his chambers."

[Bebop~]

I don't see Tektolnes saying gickers are okay so much as allowing them to survive for his own gain if they ever require them.

Magickers are still taboo among the majority of commoners.

One question - Aren't southron templars magicky?  Or is this to much of an IC question?

[Marauder Moe]

Tektolnes doesn't say that magickers are okay... he says that they may exist as slaves to the templarate.  That's hardly a mandate for equality.

As for fear and hate... I really don't see why you think nobles are immune to them.  Templars or Tektolnes himself either, for that matter.  They fear and hate the Tuluk, right?  They fear and hate powerful defilers, right?  Most fear and hate magickers too.  The only difference is that Tektolnes figured out a way to (mostly) control magickers and channel their power productivly and they aren't an immediate threat.  A noble magicker, unless gemmed, would be an even greater threat.  He'd have all the knowledge, privacy, and time to become extremely powerful in the ways of magick.  No way Tektolnes would tolerate such a threat.

Also, by your logic, a halfbreed noble would be accepted too.  Afterall, elves are allowed to live just the same as magickers.  Hell, they don't even have to get gemmed!  A truly educated noble would know that elves and half-elves live longer, are quicker, and a little smarter than normal humans.  It'd be great to have a bastard half-elf noble who's loyalty can be completely assured.   :roll:

[spawnloser]

Synthesis, I can think of at least one southern noble house (open for play) that has a policy stating that they do NOT hire magickers.  Kadius does not hire magickers.  I just thought I would correct you on this.

[Intrepid]

The Senate notes imply that Rennik has been trying to get the Elementalists' Quarter
cordoned off for years.  I doubt they're doing it for the protection of the magickers
either.

As far as why someone might think that nobles kill magickers, it's assumed they kill
off mutations.  Nobles are very picky about breeding and appearance, so even some
minor mutations might be treated badly--let alone a filthy magicker.

[Cenghiz]

I never thought I would ever agree with Synthesis.. But I do..

To spawnloser: Kadius isn't a noble house. But you're still right. Different houses have different policies and there are houses that don't hire magickers as a rule.

But Synthesis is totally right. No commoner has ever seen a magicker, but those commoners also didn't realize a few ungemmed magickers of mine were magickers. They don't have the spell 'detect magicker noble' so maybe some of the nobles we see around are magickers. We cannot know.

So maybe noble babies with affinity to elements are kept, only they're forced to keep their identities hidden. Maybe they're killed. Maybe they're left in front of one of the temples' gates. As Halaster, we do not know and we can only speculate.

[Cegar]

I figure that if a magicker were born to a noble, it would be considered a bastard and treated as such. Not nobility, but not common - pretty much under wraps.

[bloodfromstone]

One question - Aren't southron templars magicky? Or is this to much of an IC question?

I always assumed, from an IC perspective, that it is the will and power of Tektolnes, not "magick". This doesn't mean that in actuality they aren't the same thing. Just the way I always thought it would be viewed. I might be wrong on this.

Anyway, magickers are scum and dirt and terrible, horrible things by most's perspectives. That doesn't necessarily mean that there aren't noble magickers, but they would certainly be a political liability. Regardless of their superior knowledge and power, nobles still rely on the commoner populous' support to some degree. That is why nobles always put on events and sponsor people. Their House's influence over the masses is important, and the masses hate magickers.

[Synthesis]

Marauder,

Every citizen of Allanak exists fundamentally at the pleasure of Tektolnes.  Some are more restricted than others, but it doesn't change the fact that they exist and live within Allanak simply because Tektolnes allows it.  Further, I never said they were treated equally, this is simply a straw man.  I wrote "Tektolnes says they're okay" because it's simpler than writing "Tektolnes allows them to exist within his city as long as they adhere to a rather strict set of rules and they do not engage in any other sort of activity that the Templarate may deem detrimental to their cause."

The whole spiel about Tektolnes and the Templarate hating and fearing Muk Utep is an equivocation centered around what exactly "fear" is.  Yes, it is quite possible that there exists no thing which is immune to fear or incapable of hate, generally speaking.  However, there are different types of fear, and there are different levels of hatred, and these things can have vastly different causes and effects.  You cannot possibly believe that Tektolnes' fear of Muk Utep or the Dragon is as blind and ignorant as the average commoner's fear of magick in general, yet this is what you attempt to do by using it as an analogy.  Furthermore, I never said a noble magicker would not be gemmed.  Of -course- he or she would be gemmed--nobles may get certain privileges, but elementalists are simply too powerful to be given complete leeway.  Finally, (as far as anybody knows) Tektolnes allows elementalists within his city to rise to whatever level of power they can achieve, so long as they do not threaten his dominion by their actions or their mistakes.  He tolerates this threat of magickal power among commoners, who have no special relationship to him or his Templarate...why would he not tolerate it amongst his appointed Nobility, who owe everything to his grace?

Halfbreeds are completely different than elementalists, and you engage in  a hasty generalization here.  Simply because one generally disliked thing is allowed does not mean that another generally disliked thing will be allowed.  There is one glaring reason that I can think of why Noble Houses would want to keep their human blood line completely, beyond-a-shadow-of-a-doubt pure.  Furthermore, an elementalist noble is a vastly more useful thing than a generic half-breed.  Sure, half-breeds may be smarter and faster, but even pure-blooded elves aren't so fast and intelligent that they become imminently useful tools that should be kept around, even at high cost.  Elementalists, on the other hand, can BURNINATE or perhaps even summon elemental legions of DOOM to do their bidding.  These wouldn't be schmoes kept around simply because the nobility is nice to their offspring...these elementalist nobles would be well-treated members of their family, subject to certain precautionary restrictions--kept around because they could possibly turn out to be tremendous "aces in the hole" under the right circumstances.

And again, I'd like to reiterate that all of this may not matter if there is simply a tradition of killing elementalist nobles, or if there is some sort of edict issued by Tektolnes that no such thing may be allowed to live.  If neither of these is the case, then I can see no reason why a Noble House would slaughter one of its own.

So, roll your eyes all you want, but you're the one making glaring errors in your arguments, not I.

[ale six]

Whether Tek permits them or not, the social stigma about magickers is still a very real thing in Allanak. Several noble Houses perpetuate this stigma themselves by refusing to hire magickers, etc.

If nobles were to keep ungemmed elementalists around (family or otherwise), and the templarate were to find out, I don't think the consequences would be pretty. Nobility are not that far above the law where they can get away with supporting ungemmed mages.

If on the other hand, you had a gemmer trying to claim noble station, they would probably be treated with shock and revulsion by the other nobility, their own servants, and very likely other members of their own family. I can't imagine why any House would take the social and political risks involved with gemming one of their members.

I'm not saying a magicker noble could never exist, I'm just saying it seems extremely unlikely given the makeup of Allanaki society. The fact that nobody has ever seen one speaks for itself. Either they aren't there or they're kept a very tight secret.

[Larrath]

I'd like to steer this discussion away from Tektolnes and what he allows and disallows.
Tektolnes is two things as far as this discussion goes:
1. Vastly powerful - this means he can afford, if he wanted to, to be basically have any sort of magicker of any power live in his city and be able to threaten absolutely nothing whatsoever.
2. No fool.

Public opinion is very important to the Noble Houses.  Joe Schmoe isn't important, but as far as groups go, I'm willing to bet that if Tektolnes had to choose having every single Noble in Allanak disappear or to have two thirds of the Commoners in Allanak disappear, Tektolnes would have his templars groom new commoners to make a new Nobility.  According to Allanak's documentation, the reason why House Fale possesses its mid-tier rank is its great public influence and popularity.

There is a reason why magickers in Allanak have a much lower status than what logic says they should, and there is a reason why people are actively taught to fear and hate magickers.  And hey, commoner magickers are useful as hell too - and, in addition, they're also disposable, which nobles aren't (not as easily, at least).
Because nobles are supposed to be adored and looked up to while magickers are looked at with fear and contempt, having a gem-wearing magicker is a big problem, and having a magicker go around without a gem is even worse.

If you have a noble magicker, especially one without a gem, the noble houses could start entering very bitter and brutal wars.  And if the senior nobility is even slightly educated about magickers and gemmers (which I strongly believe they are), they would prefer to kill their nobles over letting them run around with gems.
The potential use of a magicker noble fails to outweigh the downsides, and as it is it's perfectly possible to go to the Elementalist's Quarter, pick a gemmer that looks loyal enough (this is very easy if you're friends with a templar) and do what you need with them.

[Cenghiz]

I want to repeat again. No mundane has 'detect magicker noble' spell. Maybe a senior noble magicker trains daily in his own apartment which's barred to intrusion of elements of all types. Maybe elementalist type X or defiler Y saw it once or twice but didn't tell it to anyone or s/he was not believed.

I'm not saying there are magicker nobles but if there were, a common hunter would never know. And I repeat again, as Halaster mentioned in his post, it is never going to be common knowledge. So I feel this thread's lacking reason. All we can do is to speculate. We will never know, if we knew, we're not allowed to tell it here because it's not common knowledge. Period.

[Xygax]

While more educated than the rest of the population, the nobility must also concern themselves with appearances more than the rest of the population, and one of the aspects of appearance that matters to them is how they appear to those uneducated commoners.  Unfortunately, this often means that the beliefs of the common populace must at least appear to be the beliefs of the nobility.

That said, I am not specifically saying that the nobility do one thing or the other with their magickally-cursed offspring (if any such offspring even do occur), just that it is possible that their education might not be the overriding factor in their decision-making.

-- X

[aruna]

Tektolnes is a power-hungry sorcerer-king. I think it's relatively safe to assume that the political structure of Allanak is set up in such a way as to eliminate any possible threat to his power and dominion over his city-state. As far as I see it, the only reason commoner elementalists are allowed to exist (aside from their usefulness in inspiring fear and hatred into the masses) is because by definition commoners have virtually no political power. If a commoner elementalist were to begin to work their way up the political ladder, I'm willing to bet that they would be disposed of in due course.  

This is why I can't reasonably believe that Tektolnes would permit a magicker noble to live. While nobles are certainly Tektolnes' puppets, they also wield considerable economic and political power, most importantly through affecting popular opinion. Also, envy aside, I think it's entirely possible that one good reason the nobility have this affect on the masses is because they're not magickers, and that's certainly a comforting thought when considering their alternative superiors, which brings me to the Templars.

The Templars carry out the will of the Highlord, who (as has been stated in this thread and others) grant them magicks to help them in their tasks. I can only assume that granted magick can also be taken away as Tek deems appropriate.  Why, then, would He ever let an incredible liability such as a magicker noble exist when he can use and control his Templars to do whatever it is he would have wanted it alive for in the first place?

[SirHelpsAlot?]

I love looking at threads like these and all the player 'statements' about how things 'are' in the world, so definitive, so final... "This is the way the world is..." yadda yadda. Like the blind men who are feeling different parts of an elephant.. the one at the leg is saying 'it's a tree!' the one at the tail is saying 'it's a snake!' the one at the ear is saying 'it's a sailboat!' All of them are so sure..

More often than not these threads just ramble on with people arguing over subjects they truly have no grounded knowledge in.. It's like a battle of whose guess feels more accurate.

Someone actually claimed to be able to answer the questions but wouldn't because of their IC nature... I'd truly be surprised if they had the real answer.

Thankfully however, this thread has TWO staff responses that do a really good job of actually answering the question from an informed position without tossing out the old 'find out IC' line we've all grown to love so much.

So, wild speculations aside, the answer to the original question is clear: Unless you meet a Noble-Magicker, assume they simply do not exist.  The reasoning behind this can be anything your little commoner mind can come up with.

Next topic?

[Dalmeth]

More often than not these threads just ramble on with people arguing over subjects they truly have no grounded knowledge in.. It's like a battle of whose guess feels more accurate.

So what?  That's life.  It's fun.  Grab some popcorn and watch the show.

[Marauder Moe]

Indeed it is fun.  

Anyway, Synthesis, my interpretation of your posts (call it a straw man if you want) seems to say that you think nobles don't have fear, hatred, predjudice, or other irrational motivations and beliefs all because they're educated.  From my opinion, from my interpretation of the docs, and from my experiences in-game, that's just plain wrong.  Nobles may believe they're infalible.  Commoners may believe nobles are infallible.  By modern real life standards, though, they are most definitely not.

Now as for the difference between half-elves and magickers, it seems to me that it's only a quantifiable difference, not a qualified difference.  How about mullish nobles?  Muls can be just as useful and terrifying as a magicker.  Maybe even more so.  Oooh, or sorceror nobles?  My point is that usefulness does not always win over stigma, at any degree.  In addition, blood does not garauntee loyalty.

Oh, also

Furthermore, I never said a noble magicker would not be gemmed. Of -course- he or she would be gemmed

As long as you weren't causing earthquakes in the estate or setting the furniture on fire, the slaves and servants wouldn't even know your secret. You'd just be "the odd young Lord who never leaves his chambers."

and then

So, roll your eyes all you want, but you're the one making glaring errors in your arguments, not I.

That last bit wasn't neccesary.

[Sir Diealot]

blah blah etc.

And this guy called -me- an asshole.