Gate Camps

[Intrepid]

I was a bit inspired by the thread regarding tents in the Bazaar in Nak.

What would you guys think of there being permanent encampments outside the
East and West gates of Allanak?  Various tribes, an elven market, some shadier folks
trying to escape notice, etc.  It just seems like a logical place, especially for the elven
scum and those tribal vagrants to be doing business or just staying at for a few days
before moving on.

Basically, the usual random tent appearances outside the gate would change but
never leave, and there would be more of them.  Some of the stalls and hawkers
from the bazaar and surrounding areas might be moved outside, pretty much.  Plus,
there could be a script where travelers leaving the city or people just coming out
for devotions could be harassed by a swarm of folk trying to sell them wares.

I realize it's not exactly a vital sort of idea--but it could be fun.  And hey, maybe it
might give the resident merchants a bit more breathing room and free up some space
in the Bazaar.

[Vox]

I like the concept behind this idea, but instead of focusing on tent camps why not concentrate on fleshing out the Allanaki farming villages?

There are several Farming villages that have been up and running for years.. As it stands I hardly ever hear or see people making productive use of these villages. If some more love and attention was put into them they could accomplish exactly what Intrepid is suggesting.

For example:
The first month of the year the western most farming village is visited by these travelling tribal merchants.. the second month they move to the next village over and so on.. Rotating through the farming villages and bringing those players interested in their goods out of the walls and into the villages.

If some dark alleyways are added and the population of the soldiers are decreased slightly, this might also give the Templar and Militia PCs something to incorporate into their patrolling duties.

Maybe at one point these travelling merchants even make it to Red Storm for a few weeks.

Thoughts?

[Intrepid]

See, I'd considered, what with the huge amount of guards residing there, that the
security would be even more extreme.  It also seemed close enough to the city
that people would go there to get items or get tanked at the Gaj.

I guess the real question is: Should the farming villages be autonomous settlements?

Either way, I would like to see some development of the villages.  I'm just not sure
they would necessarily be mutually exclusive to the tent camp idea.

[Many Faces]

I had the feeling that the farming villages were mostly autonomous until the Allanaki templarate came and did something.  By autonomous I mean: they have their own boys grow up and be militia, they solve their own problems if any arise by sending out their own militia unless it is big enough to inform the main Allanaki Templarate and request reinforcements.

There, however, would be no mistake about who was actually in charge.  The farming villages are, since Allanak has the biggest army, on Allanak's land, and would never think or hope of acting against the wishes of Tek's empire.

That being said, I would love to see the farming villages used more often by the player base, and I think the rotating merchantile idea is excellent.

[Cale_Knight]

There, however, would be no mistake about who was actually in charge.  The farming villages are, since Allanak has the biggest army, on Allanak's land, and would never think or hope of acting against the wishes of Tek's empire.

It's not just that. The descriptions around the villages show militia soldiers actually standing guard over the farmers. The villages are littered with soldiers and even have their own blue-robed templars.

The message is clear: the villages are extremely valuable possessions of the Highlord and are heavily guarded as a result. To the point, I think, where any serious kinds of crime or disruption in production would be quickly and brutally crushed.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I believe that the villages are likely where the majority of the farming slaves, used extensively by the Highlord, are housed. This doesn't mean that there are no freemen there, just that it's heavily slave-populated.

[Halaster]

I like this idea.

[Aldiel]

That'd be interesting.  How close to the gates are we talking?  Like one room west and one room south, something like that?  Or five or six rooms west and one room south?  Trying to create a mental picture.

[Intrepid]

That'd be interesting.  How close to the gates are we talking?  Like one room west and one room south, something like that?  Or five or six rooms west and one room south?  Trying to create a mental picture.

Distance is pretty optional to the idea, but it could be an arc of rooms around the
room just outside the gate to give people some space for devotions.

[palomar]

Don't the merchants stay within the walls for one good reason, namely protection? Basically, a merchant sets up store within the walls for a fee (token of mercantilism or whatever) so that she may benefit from the protection of the city state (and/or criminal organisations). The risks involved for a merchant to trade outside the walls should, in the mind of the general trader/store owner be too grave to consider. In addition, city dwellers might hesitate to leave the gates to visit the camp. As far as I know, most commoners don't leave the city throughout their lives unless they have to.

If only the shadier elements would use those trade camps outside the gates, well, you can count on the templarate to make a presence real quick, probably making it less attractive (We got no jail out here? Beat him into a bloody mess then). In the long run, if such a trade camp (regardless of whether its very shady or just a little) managed to survive I'd actually say that the city would grow around and devour it, in one way or another. Perhaps, even the city wall would be expanded to incorporate this new mercantile district and the shabby hovels surrounding it. Or, they'd be left alone and get wiped out by the first group of nasties to pass by.

If it was a travellers'/desert elf camp I would think that it during some periods of the year, maybe two of the three months, the camp would be deserted and then for a few weeks flourish as the different tribes get together to trade. With more people around, the more likely you are to be able to trade your goods and also buy the supplies you need yourself personally, or as a tribe.
In some way, I think the Merchant Houses would have a negative view on this, they run large parts of the merchant districts and markets in the respective city states and would, at least in the short run, lose heaps of money on a beyond the walls trade camp. They sure want their (big) share.

I don't think the bazaar is too cluttered, maybe it could use even more merchants. Maybe some of them shady, they'd buy just about anything interesting but carry few coins. Anyhow, the question regarding the multitude of shops is tricky, because there are only so many object types and variations of them. There really is no need to have ten shops selling rugs and the same trinkets (like in a RL bazaar).

In conclusion, if it was a seasonal once-a-year bustling encampment it could be awesome if some work was put into it. If it was to be a permanent place for the shady people to haggle around I'd say no, there's no need and it wouldn't make much sense.

[SpyGuy]

I'm with palomar on this one.  Makes little IC sense to me, merchants are within the walls for protection.

A time of tribal gatherings might be an AWESOME idea though.  Maybe even have this gathering occur outside both Allanak and Tuluk, and act as a partial fence in both areas.   Various tribals, indies and shady types know to gather outside X city at X time of the year to trade their wares for a month or so before dispersing once more only to reappear later.

[Angela Christine]

Most tribes don't traverse the known world, it wouldn't make sense for all the coded camps to show up at either Tuluk or Allanak.  

I can see all the mobile camps showing up outside Luir's in the same month though.  That way the Northish tribes could trade with Southish tribes.  A big Jamboree every Acending Sun (or whichever month would make the most sense).  



Angela Christine

[Intrepid]

Given the fact that tents show up outside the city for tribes on a regular basis, this
seems to negate your claim that everyone enters the cities for protection.

Not to mention, Arm has a long history of dune traders, a term that has been
associated with merchants who traverse the waste and stick to the fringes of society.

As for desert elves...why would they enter?  If they can convince roundears to do
business with them outside the city and avoid having to worry about contraband, so
much the better.

The idea of an elven market does currently and has existed in the past on Arm, but it's
set up in places where most people can't access them.  The classic elven markets from
Dark Sun are meant to be places where you can acquire contraband and/or exotic
items.  It's the reason why anyone would deal with an elf in the first place--they run
far and wide.  Sometimes they acquire things in those runs that people want.

As far as the shadies...they can run and hide if the templars come looking around.  It
happens even in the city, but the difference is that most templars will be less concerned
with it happening outside the city.  Yes, I do realize there is going to be that one
obsessive/compulsive templar pc out of the group that's going to try to enforce law
outside the city, but the smarter ones can find ways to make this benefit them.  It just
takes a wider vision than adding a notch to one's belt in the short run.

Look closely at the gate description for the Main Gate.  It always has people around
the dragon statue from all walks of life.  All day.  Every day.  Now imagine that
some of the transients don't want to have to deal with the templarate on a regular
basis when they're just sticking around for a day or two before moving on.  It's a
matter of being where potential customers can be reached in a short period of time.
Not to mention, there were quite a few ancient city-states in history where camps of
this nature accumulated regularly.  Even closer to modern times, the Romani would
make camp outside of cities despite possible dangers in the wilderness from highwaymen
or natural disasters.

Besides...if desert elves and nomads couldn't handle the elements and wild animals,
they wouldn't be desert elves and nomads.

[Intrepid]

Most tribes don't traverse the known world, it wouldn't make sense for all the coded camps to show up at either Tuluk or Allanak.

Actually, three tribal camps are coded to show up outside Allanak already.  This is
merely a logical expansion to an existing idea.

[FightClub]

This idea is hawt.  I'd like to see something more like fuedal times, where the market, and some of the houses were actually outside the city gates, raiders or the horrible northies come to invade, everyone ZWOOMP inside the city.  I wouldn't be opposed to some tent villages outside either.  Would be pretty cool to have places to sell all your resources, that perhaps these shops could in turn sell to houses or whatever -- yeah it would be nice.  A lot more logical too.

[Sir Diealot]

Badass idea.  It would also allow those tribes that DONT EVER GO IN THE WALLS, as one of their major laws, to trade.  Unless this sort of thing (a tent-city idea, outside a city)  would go against the idea behind it?

I also like the idea behind a massive Tribal Meet around Luirs, or somewhere in the Tablelands, where some of the more gregarious Human tribes (Muarks, Arabet, other various gypsies)  would all get together, and show off their new dances/awesome crafts/etc.  It'd really give the Tribals a better sense of community, without taking away from their individuality.

[palomar]

Given the fact that tents show up outside the city for tribes on a regular basis, this
seems to negate your claim that everyone enters the cities for protection.

Not to mention, Arm has a long history of dune traders, a term that has been
associated with merchants who traverse the waste and stick to the fringes of society.

It does not negate my claim since what I meant was that the city merchants set up their shops within the walls for protection. They don't have a tribe for protection, and a tribe has functioned as a large family for a long time. Smaller, more independent merchants in the city have to rely on what protection the templarate and criminal gangs offer. The Merchant Houses see the most lucrative market within the walls too, that's where most people will see and buy their wares and they're less exposed to large scale crime (raider bands and beasties). I also think that dune traders travel the wilds, but would set up shop within the walls if they had a chance. This, unless they have a tradition of not entering the cities whatsoever.
The PC population might swarm to a trade camp outside the walls, but I doubt the general populace of a city would.

As for desert elves...why would they enter?  If they can convince roundears to do
business with them outside the city and avoid having to worry about contraband, so
much the better.

I agree, and like it's been pointed out in other posts, some of the tribes set up their camps outside the city, both human and elven ones. They do wait for people to come to them and trade, but in some cases a member of the tribe needs to trade with something and goes into the city, whether she likes it or not (unless, of course, their tribe never enters a city). If a tribal PC could easily sell her gathered or crafted goods through the tribe's own shops, it would be the preferred way. As it is, you as a PC go within the walls to quickly sell off your goods or buy what you need and that is probably the easiest solution.

Also, about the shadies again. Honestly, I don't recall if the gate guards check your pack on the way out, which could make a difference. Basically, I think that shady city people could benefit from trading with the tribals but probably wouldn't set up shops on their own. There should be enough room for that in the bazaar and Rinth already.

Besides...if desert elves and nomads couldn't handle the elements and wild animals,
they wouldn't be desert elves and nomads.

Moot point, I'm not arguing whether or not nomads and elves can deal with the wilds. I'm just sceptic about the idea of a permanent semi-lawless encampment outside the city walls. Those groups of people sure as hell can take care of themselves, within their own tribes. There are also reasons they haven't banded up with the other tribes too for a big common trade camp. Some get along just fine, some hate eachother.

Edited to add: I definitely think a seasonal, temporary trading camp outside the city where the tribals gather once a year would be an interesting thing. A demanding, time consuming and probably very fun and rewarding project for an ambitious PC or group of PCs.

[Intrepid]

It does not negate my claim since what I meant was that the city merchants set up their shops within the walls for protection. They don't have a tribe for protection, and a tribe has functioned as a large family for a long time. Smaller, more independent merchants in the city have to rely on what protection the templarate and criminal gangs offer.

I wasn't referring to city merchants or indies from the city.  This concept is more
directed toward people in whose best interest it is to avoid templar interference.

I agree, and like it's been pointed out in other posts, some of the tribes set up their camps outside the city, both human and elven ones. They do wait for people to come to them and trade, but in some cases a member of the tribe needs to trade with something and goes into the city, whether she likes it or not (unless, of course, their tribe never enters a city). If a tribal PC could easily sell her gathered or crafted goods through the tribe's own shops, it would be the preferred way. As it is, you as a PC go within the walls to quickly sell off your goods or buy what you need and that is probably the easiest solution.

Sometimes, yes.  I wouldn't say it's often enough that they'll prefer to set up a stall
in the city permanently, especially with Nak's constant racism and rival groups of
elves in the city wanting to drive them out.  Why would a tribe have a shop outside
their own settlements though?  It doesn't make sense to pay the templarate and
keep one of their tribesmen stuck in an evil place like Allanak regularly to sell the
occasional bauble...

Also, about the shadies again. Honestly, I don't recall if the gate guards check your pack on the way out, which could make a difference. Basically, I think that shady city people could benefit from trading with the tribals but probably wouldn't set up shops on their own. There should be enough room for that in the bazaar and Rinth already.

Even if they did, there are ways around the pack check.  I'll say no more on that.   As for shops, I'm referring to peddlers and tent shops that can pick
up and leave at any time.

I'm just sceptic about the idea of a permanent semi-lawless encampment outside the city walls. Those groups of people sure as hell can take care of themselves, within their own tribes. There are also reasons they haven't banded up with the other tribes too for a big common trade camp. Some get along just fine, some hate eachother.

So a group on the fringes defying the law shouldn't be able to exist...like the Rinth?

Edited to add: I definitely think a seasonal, temporary trading camp outside the city where the tribals gather once a year would be an interesting thing. A demanding, time consuming and probably very fun and rewarding project for an ambitious PC or group of PCs.

It's already happening with two npc tribes in Luirs.  It's a logical expansion to add
more and definitely a good idea.  However, I don't believe that a tribal gathering
should necessarily be treated as an alternative to tribes camping outside of Allanak
and possibly Tuluk.

If the concept is even used, that is.

[Sir Diealot]

This is, I see, where the point of the 'merchant liscense' comes in.  If you want to have permission to sell inside a city, and get the protection from the militia/templars/etc.  Pay the price.

If you want to trade outside the city, in the tent camp (where I see more independant merchants setting up, to avoid fees, fines, even bans.  Could spice be sold at some tent?  Its not inside teh walls, so you didn't get searched)

All in all, the reasons for not having it, ie. There are beasts outside, there are raiders, there are no laws.  Are somewhat moot.  Each tribe that comes would bring protection, I'm assuming, and there are a LOT of people that are going to be standing right there, next to the gates.  That sort of wards off small-scale raiding parties, and even most small beasts.

If there was a small-medium tent-city, where a lot of the independant trade was done (Perhaps, with rooms where PCs could put up codedly-purchased tents.. nudge nudge.)  so as to avoid paying the fines.  And, in order to more easily dispense illegal goods, I could see it become something unique for each city.

In Tuluk, there would be tribals coming from all around to trade with other tribals.. without having to enter Utep's walls.  There'd be shows, odd items with strange flavors, and a colorful/wild flair.  In Allanak, I see it as being somewhat more controlled, merchants setting up shop outside, so that they don't have to pay the tax.  People ready to leap inside the walls at the first sight of a Mek, or Silt Horror.

And, what might be awesome, would be some merchants that move from city-to-city.  Amos the NPC tribal merchant, who stays in Allanak during the cooler part of the year (if there is any fluctuation) and goes up north when it gets hotter, bringing his items/tent with him.  It could lead to a more fluid market, and could allow for moderately realistic trade (Amos brings sid up north, and its available until its sold out, and brings wood down south, and -its- available until its sold out)  Things like that.

I dunno, I'm mostly rambling today, slightly incoherent.

[Intrepid]

This is, I see, where the point of the 'merchant liscense' comes in.  If you want to have permission to sell inside a city, and get the protection from the militia/templars/etc.  Pay the price.

Agreed.  Especially when it comes to indy traders and dynastic merchants who want
the connections with nobles, templars and city institutions as a whole.  People on the
outside are just looking to make their sid and move on, likely trying to avoid the
unnecessary entanglements.

If you want to trade outside the city, in the tent camp (where I see more independant merchants setting up, to avoid fees, fines, even bans.  Could spice be sold at some tent?  Its not inside teh walls, so you didn't get searched)

I would imagine spice would have its fluctuations in sale, depending on which tribes
were around.  Shadies and Elves might be selling common spices all the time at a
markup, but the tribes who sift it themselves or deal heavily in spice could very well
deal in the more exotic types.  And, as odd as it could seem, certain tribes could
conceivably have a sense of caution even on the outside and simply be there to
deal in exotic items without having to pay for a license.

All in all, the reasons for not having it, ie. There are beasts outside, there are raiders, there are no laws.  Are somewhat moot.  Each tribe that comes would bring protection, I'm assuming, and there are a LOT of people that are going to be standing right there, next to the gates.  That sort of wards off small-scale raiding parties, and even most small beasts.

There is still tribal law and likely bickering between the tent encampments, which
provides some rp if some of the groups showing up ever end up being pcs.

And, what might be awesome, would be some merchants that move from city-to-city.  Amos the NPC tribal merchant, who stays in Allanak during the cooler part of the year (if there is any fluctuation) and goes up north when it gets hotter, bringing his items/tent with him.  It could lead to a more fluid market, and could allow for moderately realistic trade (Amos brings sid up north, and its available until its sold out, and brings wood down south, and -its- available until its sold out)  Things like that.

I imagine the seasons are Sandy, Not Sandy and GREATTEKHOWCANYOULIVEHERE
on an annual basis.  PCs could also move with these seasons as well.

[Aldiel]

If only the shadier elements would use those trade camps outside the gates, well, you can count on the templarate to make a presence real quick, probably making it less attractive (We got no jail out here? Beat him into a bloody mess then). In the long run, if such a trade camp (regardless of whether its very shady or just a little) managed to survive I'd actually say that the city would grow around and devour it, in one way or another. Perhaps, even the city wall would be expanded to incorporate this new mercantile district and the shabby hovels surrounding it. Or, they'd be left alone and get wiped out by the first group of nasties to pass by.

Yeah, that's why it would be cool to put it in and see what happens.  One thing to keep in mind is that desert traders aren't city merchants.  A desert trader has mecenaries or tribemen for protection as well.

[Intrepid]

Also, from a templar's point of Machiavellian view, these tribals are cushions against
sieges too.  They end up having to deal with the brunt of occasional disturbances
at their own cost and vigilance, leaving the true militia to deal with the extremely
rare threat that gets past them.

Yet another in a long line of unwilling defenses for any city.

[marko]

Any permanent camp that started up just beyond the gates of any fortified location would probably become annexed by the neighbouring governing bodies.

Therefore, anyone selling in a permanent camp would still need licenses, would still pay taxes and tariffs, and would see soldiers patrolling the camp.

If an independent merchant wants to set up a regular location where they can be found why not just do that?  Hire someone for a few coins to shout about the location where the merchant can be found.  Then have the merchant be there regularly.  A couple merchants can decide to do the same thing.

My understanding is that the citystates tend not to impose any major restrictions upon independent merchants.  Most 'restrictions' would likely be imposed by the Great Merchant Houses posturing and preventing erosiion of their market share.

[Intrepid]

Any permanent camp that started up just beyond the gates of any fortified location would probably become annexed by the neighbouring governing bodies.

Permanent shops and merchants definitely would fare better by cultivating clients and
relationships in the bazaar, yes.  This concept more refers to transients, tribals and
vagrants pitching camp, selling a few items and moving on.