Below Average Stats

[Bebop]

Here is my idea:

I do not think below average should exist.  And I especially do not think poor should exist.  Stats are mostly random and I understand that certain ages are not going to be as good as some, and perhaps even weight effects stats but for the most part they are random.  And by random I mean that IMMs do not base your stats or effect your stats based on description, it's codedly based on guild, maybe height and weight, race and subguild.  (As far as I can gather).

Now!  I have played a few races, and I know race effects stats because you can have a human with good strength that can pull a certain bow and an elf with good strength who can't go anywhere near pulling that same bow.  And it says in the docs elves -are- weaker.  So even if the stats say good, elves are still weaker.  Since some races are already weaker the actual stat doesn't have anything to do with it.  So that is already taken care of despite the stats you get.

Below average is not a death sentance.  You can play characters like that, and sometimes you get a below average stat that you don't necessarily rely on like a magicker who get below average strength would not be affected by that very much, but a magicker with below average-poor wisdom?  Ouch.  Now yes, you can reroll, but somtimes you reroll and you get the SAME or WORSE stats.  This has happened to me many many times.

Now, this is my point.  Below average, poor stats are not necessary and they are not fair.  It's just like if you have a big burly warrior with poor strength.  It hurts the character, and you intentions to roleplay.  Now I'm not saying that if someone says they are big and muscular in their desc should get kick ass stats, but I'm just saying that below average, wounds someone and their character in an unecessary way.  If you have average stats and someone else already has absolutely incredible and exceptional and extremely good (I have seen some pretty awesome stats) Then luck variates that they are already going to have an extremely high advantage over the other person.  Average starts you out with potential, but starting out with below average starts you out two steps back.  In fact it can hinder and will hinder the character their entire "lives" forever setting them a step back from everyone else.  It's just a random damper on the character that is completely unfair.  It's just like knocking the character way back into helplessness causing unnecessary struggle.

Even children, the lowest age you can be is thirteen and some children have grown up with a harsh life.  And if you are say an elf or half elf, your strength is already going to be set back, but then to get poor or below average role?  How would that person even have survived?  And likewise, there are supposed to be some bonuses to some people and I have noticed that stat role is so random that many times it doesn't even fit the bill.

Take below average and poor out, it's unfair and it really is a dissappointment and totally uneccesary.  There is no reason every character should not start out any less then average, so that they may purse their goals, or lack of them with the potential to at least, learn and fight in an average way.  But to make someone a below average character randomly and at times even make their character unplayable or unable to be played as intended, I don't think that should be an option to people.

Poor is a long way down and so is below average from something like an absolutely incredible stat. A -long- way down.  About nine stat classes down from Poor to Absolutely Incredible.  What a disadvantage! I don't think this would provide for some boost in stats.  Eliminating two stat options while about seven others remain it would just even the playing field a bit.

[Halaster]

If you didn't have "below average" then "average" would become "below average".  Think about it.

We're not doing this.

[jcarter]

The thing is, average would become the new poor and above average would be below average. Maybe not in title, but wouldn't it be exactly the same?

Edit: Damn you, Halasturd.

[grog]

You know they used to have a very poor, but they took it out because too many people complained when they got a very poor stat.    I'm sure the level of strength (wisdom, etc)  still exists, they just made it say poor instead.

[Halaster]

You know they used to have a very poor, but they took it out because too many people complained when they got a very poor stat.    I'm sure the level of strength still exists, they just made it say poor instead.

No we didn't.

[grog]

You know they used to have a very poor, but they took it out because too many people complained when they got a very poor stat.    I'm sure the level of strength still exists, they just made it say poor instead.

No we didn't.

You mean you actually took it entirely?  I loved very poor!

[Rhyden]

I think Halaster means there never was a very poor stat.

[Bebop]

If you didn't have "below average" then "average" would become "below average".  Think about it.

We're not doing this.

That is true in a way.  Average would be the lowest stat, but that's my point.  Having an average stat is still codedly better then having a below average stat.  It's average.  Why have the potential to start someone BELOW average or poor.  That is just saying oh well, you are going to have to suck in that area and struggle harder then anyone else.  Tough roll.  At least let the person be average, so ... like I said.  The playing field is even.

[flurry]

Why stop there?  Take out "average" too, and then we can be like Lake Wobegon.   :wink:

Just roll with it, I say.  My longest lived PC started out with three poor stats, in a combat role.

[Bebop]

Why stop there?  Take out "average" too, and then we can be like Lake Wobegon.   :wink:

Just roll with it, I say.  My longest lived PC started out with three poor stats, in a combat role.

What a great argument, how did I not see this coming, people just saying why don't we let everyone be great.

No, I'm not saying that.  I'm saying why not just let people be average.

Why make them below average, randomly based on nothing to do with their character.  If I am below average in biology in school, I am failing and hence I suck.  Why make characters inherently suck.  Why -not- even the playing field.

[Cenghiz]

IRL, my wisdom is unbelieveable :twisted: but my all other stats are poor. I didn't choose it to be this way. It was rolled by God.
Life's harsh, Arm's harsher. Long live poor stats.

[Delirium]

Some of us are crazy enough to actually enjoy having poor stats.

It gives you an immediate weakness/hook to roleplay off of.

[Bebop]

Long live poor stats.

Is there any reason why you love poor stats other then the fact that Halaster already said they weren't going to be taken away?  Just curious.

Yeah... I just know that whenever people look at stats they are hoping for poor.

[Maybe42or54]

And without Poor, my Exeptionals don't look so good.

[Jherlen]

Bebop, no matter how you set the scale, something is still going to be lowest, and therefore least desired.

This whole argument is silly.

[Desertman]

I would just like to avoid situations like this...I dont know how to accomplish it...I would just like to figure out a way to avoid it.

Code Select Expand

The skinny, blue-eyed man picks up a wooden chest.

The skinny blue-eyed man says to the massive, muscular man in sirihish
"Hey big boy, get that other chest for me will you"

The massive, muscular man bends down to pick up the chest and heaves against it, it dosent move.

Easily hefting up his identical wooden chest the skinny, blue-eyed man says to the massive, muscular man in sirhish
"Back problems again I see Haunch?"

The massive, muscular man simple nods and steps back from the chest.

The skinny, blue-eye man picks up the second chest and walks off with it easily.


You get the picture...Its hard to rp having that slow poke elf or that puny gigantic muscular fellow....You can only have the same old back problem so many times before roleplaying it becomes flat stupid.

Anyways I just wish we could find a solution to having to face these types of situations.

As for taking out below average and poor...I dont think this is a bad idea...Noone wants to make a pc just to have poor wisdom, I play the game to have fun and when I get a below average or poor stat even though I stay with the character and make the best of it...In the back of my mind it is always eating at me to know that I am basically walking up hill...taking two steps forward and one step back so to speak...While if my stats were all atleast average I wouldnt have this sense of being crippled, which isnt very fun for me personally.

[Maybe42or54]

That is why we get to order our stats.

[flurry]

The stat ordering thang should help avoid those situations to some extent.

[Bebop]

Bebop, no matter how you set the scale, something is still going to be lowest, and therefore least desired.

This whole argument is silly.

It's not about being more or less desirable.  That is not what this post is about.

It is about the fact that some people randomly are set at one extreme of with pathetic stats, while others are set to the other of godly.  The stats are totally random despite the characters potential or who they are as chosen by their background.  I think that the playing field should be evened slightly so that some people are not forced into inherit patheticness.  But maybe that's just me.  I'm sorry, I didn't realize everyone else liked being at a disadvantage, not being able to fight creatures with shells because their blows bounced off, or being surpassed in their clans by someone who just joined while they've been there a year because they have below average stats.  Yeah, I know all you guys love being set at an unfair disadvantage.   :roll:

[Bebop]

That is why we get to order our stats.

Wha?  When is this going to be implemented?

[Desertman]

That is why we get to order our stats.

How do you go about doing this?

[Cenghiz]

I hate it when my mage's wisdom is even average, but poor endurance? Fine! I make up a constant sickness and my char tries to find a cure to it via magick.
I hate it when my warrior has even average strength but poor wisdom? Good.. I make up a fool. I make the char's lack of wisdom visible for both my entertainment and others'.
Sometimes 'poor's are fun to play. When you don't power play, it's simply a role you play and 'poor's don't matter. I remember a half-giant of mine with 'poor', 'poor', 'below average', 'poor' and it was the funniest role I played. Just think of it, why do you want 'average'?
It's realistic? Nah. A usual community always includes 'poor's. It makes your role impossible? Wish up.. Imms correct it if necessary. It makes you powerplay with more difficulty? Then go find a powerplay MUD for yourself.

Long live poor stats.

[LauraMars]

My favorite part is when those petite maidens with VG strength are picking up chests and barrels to carry around the city with them.

I really don't have anything to add to this discussion (other than that my favorite character had terrible stats and to request that you kindly suck it  up and roll with them) I just get a kick out of those petite maidens every  time.

[Jherlen]

So what you're arguing is that we reduce the range of the scale by chopping off the lower portions.

Using numbers instead of adjectives works better for this kind of thing. Let's say the range of stats right now is 1 (extreme low end of poor) to 25 (extreme high end of AI).

You want to adjust the stat scale so that the values for below average are no longer assigned, so that now the scale goes from 5 (extreme low end of average) to 25.

Point is that relatively, a stat of 5 is going to be much lower than 25, and people with stats of 5 will not be able to do things people with higher stats can. This, to them, will seem unfair, and they will whine about having lower stats just like you are.

Unless we wanted to reduce the stat ranges considerably, making everyone have more or less the same stats, this is pointless. The important thing is that all stat ranges are playable -- characters with lower stats are going to be at disadvantages, but not crippling ones (like being too weak to use a weapon, too stupid to cast a spell, too slow to pick up an object, etc.) And they are.

[grog]

I think Halaster means there never was a very poor stat.

If there was never a very poor stat, then my desert elf that started with all very poor was more bugged then I thought.