Diversity?

[Sir Diealot]

After reading thread after thread after thread of 'Warriors are overpowered' 'No! Rangers are overpowered!' 'No way dude, what about backstab? Assassins are overpowered!!!' I had an idea..

Diversify!

Probably a pipe dream, and potentially annoying, and/or flameworthy from people who tend to flame blindly.

Anyway..

You have a warrior..  He has the ability to use chopping weapons, and slashing weapons, and piercing weapons, and bludgeoning weapons..  He can dual wield, kick, bash, etc. etc. etc.  All warriors can do that, from the smallest elf, to the most massive half-giant.  With all the new additions to the world, and all the skills that the guilds have, it might be easier to have characters get more specific..

What if, instead of that, we had two or three 'warrior' guilds..

Light Warrior - piercing weapons, slashing weapons, kick, dual wield.. couple of light 'feint' type moves, instead of the more heavy handed things.   It'd be more like a skirmisher, dual wield (because of the allanaki two-swords light-fighter style of combat)  and, if its a skill, a slight boost in 'light armor' use.  or dodge.. or something else.  Better at escaping subdue.

Heavy Warrior - bludgeons, chopping weapons, slashing weapons.  kick, bash, shield use.  More of a Tuluki style here, using a shield, more conservative with their own life.  A bigger guy, for warriors from the higher-strength races, because they'd utilize their proficiencies, and their natural strengths would come out anyway.  Maybe give them a slight 'heavy armor' use, and lower their dodge.. to be made up for by the shield.  Better at subdue.

We could also diversify Assassins..

Cutthroat - piercing, poisons, backstab, sap.. hide, sneak.. etc.  Basic assassin.  Pretty straightforward, just maybe some balancing.

Urban Archer - Assassin.. minus backstab/sap.. Plus archery, and some climb/acrobatics type skills so they can get to the rooftops.  Keep poison, hide, sneak, everything else.  With armor being fixed, in relation to arrows, they're not ungodly powerful..  Lets take the archery back from the Rangers.. Crossbows, brought down from Tuluk and used in the 'rinth would add a whole new element to the area.


Basically, this would lead to further specialization, and less 'uber' guilds.  It will probably never happen, but I enjoy talking about things like this.

Suggestions?  Comments?  Concerns?  Other ways to split the guilds?

Also:  Take note, I do not 100% support this idea.  I see good and bad within it, but I'm interested to see other people's ideas on it, and such.

[Ritley]

I like it, but problem with it is, all current characters would lose all their skills and start from scratch. They might have been a expert in archery, and melee, but then they'd suddenly use their ability to use one? not good ICly.

[Sir Diealot]

Just make it characters from x point onwards.  The old school types will eventually die out.

[Ritley]

Just make it characters from x point onwards.  The old school types will eventually die out.

Yeah, guess. But then the old skool's have more power than the new skool's correct? how about if this system is brought in, the old skool get's to keep his main skills? but the ones he never used would be taken away.

[Maybe42or54]

There are some god awful heavy peircing weapons though..
This is much like the combat styles, but guild, I think I like it. I'll think on it more today and see what I can think of.

[spawnloser]

Due to the headache this would cause...I have to say that I'm against this.

[Sir Diealot]

I'm not asking so much whether you're for or against it..  What're your thoughts on it?

[Aldiel]

Edit: Overall, I think it's just really complicated to add.  Might be a cool idea.  I'd have to think about it more.  I think I'd rather see just a few more basic guilds.

[spawnloser]

I'm not asking so much whether you're for or against it..  What're your thoughts on it?

I didn't think I needed to be that explicit, but here goes: Too much headache, basically.

I don't like the idea of splitting classes, leaving the noobs with fewer skills, even if they cap higher, they start at a disadvantage that could be quite deadly...especially against a longer-played character that has been training a good amount of his/her skills.

Second, I'd rather people make their own decisions and stick to it for a character.  If you want your character to be a lightweight sort of fighter, great...pick light weapons that are of any type, since there are heavy and light weighted weapons of all four basic types.

[Gaare]

Actually, these would be good additions, though I think if ARM needs some more guilds, then they should be some non-combat ones. Almost all guilds have some combat/magick abilities. Adding some more guilds in fighting, creating diversity can be fun, but IMO those would (if any) help little in improving general atmosphere of Zalanthas.

This is some detrailment, but:

If ARM needs some diversity in guilds..; Maybe dividing merchant into a few pieces would be more adding to atmosphere (I never branched a lot of crafting skills with my merchants before mantis head.. also I find it a bit unrealistic that a person can both make jewellery, good at making arrows and also a tailor) or creating a seperate guild for bards could be another idea (though if I am not mistaken this was discussed a lot before).

[Sir Diealot]

I completely agree, Gaare.  Merchants should be focibly more focused.  Maybe into general categories..  But still more focused than ALL THINGS EVER CRAFTABLE.

[Crazy Hakhim]

I don't think it makes much sense.
Traditionally, armies had different kinds of troops, because that's what they decided they needed. But logically, nothing puts a limit on getting someone to train on whatever he wants. I don't think we should codedly create anything like this, I think we can trust two limters:

1. To be very good in something, I need time. To be good in EVERYTHING, I need a whole lot of time. By the time this warrior is very good at something, and warrior is only an example here, the Merchant is very rich, The thief is very good, the Aide has a lot of influence. I think they have the benefit here.
2. Attributes, which are pretty random, as far as I understand, limit things, don't they? If my warrior can't physically wear some kinds of armor, he can't be good at them, can he? Or if they wear down his stamina so rapidly, he won't even want to be good at them.

Personally, I never had a character which grew up to be good/strong/noticable, so my trust in this limiters may be misplaced, due to my lack of experience. I think, however, that if we DO need a balancing factor, "guilds", as suggested, shouldn't be the solution, but rather, perhaps, making the use of a weapon you're not skilled at at all much harder, or make the limiters of strength/stamina for various armors/weapons.

[UnderSeven]

I think you guys need to look more at the base idea behind the suggestion.  And that's in the topic.  Diversity.

The way I see it diversity can be achieved lots of ways.  The sorcerers as per the help files suggest have paths?  So what they learn spells based off of what they use or work toward and not others?  Okay so one way to diversify would be increase individual guild skill possibilities but make some doors close others.  Ie branch paths.  

Or break up guilds and subguilds to more options as in, a base guild, a secondary guild a sub guild.  

Those are just two rough very rough ideas, niether of which I'm saying should be implemented but my point is this:

There is a good idea here.  Even if it would need patching up and work.

[Only He Stands There]

Why not make it so that there are still the same guilds, but some/most skills "decay" over time?

So, for example, your Southron merchant who uses leathercraft and tanning all the time eventually loses points in, say, lumberjacking and woodworking as the others increase. If he puts forth an effort to keep them up, then perhaps jewelrymaking begins to decrease. It would take a concentrated effort at balancing to keep all his skills high, and even then, he may not be able to get them as high as a more "specialized" merchant-guild character.

Similarly, a warrior who focuses on axes/swords eventually loses more and more skill with daggers. His bash is one to be feared, but his disarm is just so-so. If he works on disarm, then bash begins to decay. If he works on them both, then whatever the other warrior skill is (I forget) decays. If he works on them all, they're all pretty good but not as good as someone who solely focuses on one.

Would work with all skills, even spells for that matter. The only real thing I can see getting disturbed by it is skill branching, but this is just a rough idea.

[RunningMountain]

Yeah. I had similar ideas like these. Where there aren't just the usual guilds. There are many guilds categorized into Stealth, Combat, Magic, Special.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Why not make it so there is a class with all the skills (within the mundane realm of reality)? A person starts as nothing and by using skills, becomes something.

In other words, Bob can be a builder, a warrior, a shieldman, a ranger, etc ... by using certian skills. If he decided to stop being a merchant and start being a warrior, he could start sparring and such, but would lose his merchant skills over time in lieu of warrior skills.

I think this would be a great newbie class or a great class for people who really wanted to play as the fates took them.

[Crazy Hakhim]

I really liked Only He Stands There's idea. I'm in favour of balancing, if the need is there, as long as it's IC. I can't imagine someone who CAN have all skills. I reckon, in theory, with enough nagging the imm's, RP'ing and hard work, everyone can get a skill. The skills you start with represent the skills you aquired up until now. And even those skills, not used enough, can, and should, decay. I think they codedly do already, don't they?

[flurry]

I'm for the general goal of having a more diverse array of possible character types by augmenting the existing guild/subguild system.  I don't like the idea of paring down (pruning?) the skill trees for current guilds to make them more specialized.

I would love to see just a few more class and subclass options open up.  I think that extra bit of variety would be great, but of course they have to be good concepts that make sense.

I especially think it would be great to have one or two more outdoor-based classes.

Here are a few ideas for possible new classes and subclasses:

Classes

Gatherer  Probably not the best name, but I'm thinking of more of an outdoor/survival type that's less inclined to hunting than the ranger class.   Sort of a merchant-ranger hybrid, I guess.  Adept at gathering materials from the land, working those materials, and trading the finished products.  Not as good a wilderness guide as a ranger, but fairly capable of surviving and getting around outdoors.

Laborer This is the hodgepodge "Commoner" guild that's been discussed quite a bit.  Not my idea, but I like it.   I don't like the name "Commoner", though.  

Spy  A stealthy class that excels at the observational skills (watch, scan, listen, etc.), and more adept at languages and accents than the other sneaky types.  Less adept at combat skills.

Subclass[/b]

Actor (or maybe Mimic)  A few accents and listen.  Maybe a boost to watch.


Go on.  Tear them apart.  

[Aldiel]

I'm for the general goal of having a more diverse array of possible character types by augmenting the existing guild/subguild system.  I don't like the idea of paring down (pruning?) the skill trees for current guilds to make them more specialized.

I would love to see just a few more class and subclass options open up.  I think that extra bit of variety would be great, but of course they have to be good concepts that make sense.

I especially think it would be great to have one or two more outdoor-based classes.

Here are a few ideas for possible new classes and subclasses:

Classes

Gatherer  Probably not the best name, but I'm thinking of more of an outdoor/survival type that's less inclined to hunting than the ranger class.   Sort of a merchant-ranger hybrid, I guess.  Adept at gathering materials from the land, working those materials, and trading the finished products.  Not as good a wilderness guide as a ranger, but fairly capable of surviving and getting around outdoors.

Good ideas, Flurry.  

I've always wished they'd change ranger to something else.  I've always felt ranger didn't fit with the theme.  Maybe they could change it to 'survivalists' like they are called in RL.  I like this gatherer guild.  I think it could function nicely, but it might also take away from the need of a ranger.  I'm all for it, just make sure the gatherer can never be that good of a crafter.

[bloodfromstone]

The gatherer guild sounds sexy.

[jstorrie]

Having skills decay is unnecessary - having them simply not go up when unused is penalty enough.

The idea of completely generic base classes is attractive, but only if prior-to-play life experience can be taken into account somehow.

[Sir Diealot]

Awesome ideas, flurry.  Gatherer is a badass class idea.. It fills in the gap between ub4r ranger, burninating the mekillots.. And the tribal guy who just goes out to get what he needs, before running back home.

[John]

I'm for the general goal of having a more diverse array of possible character types by augmenting the existing guild/subguild system.

But you don't need any change to the code, just to people's roleplay.

When I create a character, I choose a guild that will give me the closest amount of skills I want. Sometimes this means I use all of my skills, sometimes this means I only use very few of my skills. But with the current system, my characters can be as diverse as I want.

If I want a master sword-maker, I choose a merchant. I might never use haggle. I'll definitely never use jewelry-making, I might use stone-making (perhaps my character wants to investigate ways to work stone in order to create ornamental weapons), I might not. I have that option for my character to grow and learn in the future. When I create a northerner I'll definitely never use dual wield and when I play a southerner I'm unlikely to use shield use. But that's okay that I've got them. They'll be useless on my list. When I create a merchant, I'm likely to wish up (or now put a request in the request tool) to get rid of Cavilish. But that's the only skill I remove from my skill list. The others I merely ignore.

So yeah, any idea on a new guild that's merely splitting up current guilds, is unnecessary. Just change how you roleplay.

[spawnloser]

So yeah, any idea on a new guild that's merely splitting up current guilds, is unnecessary. Just change how you roleplay.