Combat skill limitations

[Raesanos]

This is something else that was considered when the stamina penalties to combat skills were added.  We considered putting a "cooldown" on skills like kick, bash, disarm, etc.  The IC reason for this would be that it is ineffective to use the same tricks repeatedly.  This would not mean just increasing the delay, but rather meaning that you couldn't use the skill again for a little while though you could still do other things.  We still are considering adding this in addition to the stamina loss, or instead of it, or along with a change in how much stamina is lost.

Speaking of the controversial changes to the above combat skills, feel free to email in your thoughts if you haven't.  I'm really interested in thoughts from people playing warriors who have given it a chance and seen how they need to adjust their play, but all input is welcome.  As you know, balance changes are always controversial in games like this.  We are willing to listen to player feedback as we keep tweaking things until its done in the way that is best for the game.

[Armaddict]

As you know, balance changes are always controversial in games like this.

I refuse to call them balance issues.  I call them logic issues.

[Raesanos]

As you know, balance changes are always controversial in games like this.

I refuse to call them balance issues.  I call them logic issues.

It may not be the traditional balance between classes, but we are trying to achieve a balance here.  We want skills to be equally useful to people who want to misuse the code and people who play the way we expect.  The benefit of adding some additional strategy to combat is also a factor, though admittedly that has less to do with balance.

[Bebop]

[Edited by Raesanos: Please don't simply repost a post you already made in a different thread.  If your intent was to make sure I read it, don't worry, I'm reading all the threads on this subject.]

EDIT - Yup, just thought maybe I stated my opinion in the wrong place.  You are on top of things Rae.

[Dakkon Black]

I suppose I don't have a staff view of this. But as far as I know, with the old system, a prepared mage could whip a warriors ass six ways from sunday.


Now, they can whoop warriors seven ways from sunday.

Are warriors really too powerful right now? Is it a bad thing that a warrior can become a can of whoop ass? Will the 'balancing' continue till we are all joe blow commoners who use stamina to pick up mugs of ale?

[Raesanos]

We do not think that warriors are too powerful and we are not making changes solely to weaken them.  My intent when I was choosing the stamina penalty was to try to make it so that for the most part things aren't even that different.  People who recklessly overuse their skills will be the only ones at a real disadvantage.

[Ghost]

Stamina loss code is a good addition.  I think it will give the player a reason to keep track of how he uses his skills, as well as a difference between a master at melee and an initiate.

Provided the delay is not so long and that a warrior gets more than one chance to use his skills in kick/bash/disarm, I think this might also be a positive addition.  The only possible problem is that, if the delay is too long, warriors will be just a little better than assassin/rangers in melee.

[jhunter]

I think this "cooldown" is a much better idea than the current delays that prevent you from entering "any" other non-emote commands. This is like something I mentioned in the other thread.

You kick...there's a delay for a bit before you can kick again...but you can still flee, bash, disarm, or something different for example. The same for any of those combat skills.

[John]

I think this "cooldown" is a much better idea than the current delays that prevent you from entering "any" other non-emote commands. This is like something I mentioned in the other thread.

You kick...there's a delay for a bit before you can kick again...but you can still flee, bash, disarm, or something different for example. The same for any of those combat skills.

It shouldn't replace the current lag entirely though. You shouldn't be able to fail at a disarm and then IMMEDIATELY flee. But a couple of seconds (certainly smaller then it currently is) plus the cool down period would be good.

[SpyGuy]

I think this "cooldown" is a much better idea than the current delays that prevent you from entering "any" other non-emote commands. This is like something I mentioned in the other thread.

You kick...there's a delay for a bit before you can kick again...but you can still flee, bash, disarm, or something different for example. The same for any of those combat skills.

It shouldn't replace the current lag entirely though. You shouldn't be able to fail at a disarm and then IMMEDIATELY flee. But a couple of seconds (certainly smaller then it currently is) plus the cool down period would be good.

I prefer this.  I'm all for adding stamina loss but I think attaching stamina loss solely to special skills that are the domain of warriors makes little sense.  No doubt someone will get tired during a fight, but will 3-4 attempts to kick, disarm or bash realistically tire them out?  No it'd probably be the twenty rounds of normal melee.  Granted I haven't seen the new code at all but a cooldown period would probably do more to prevent abuse and be more realistic.

[Bebop]

I think it's sad anything like this is even being considered just to keep players in line.  I have never had any kind of problem with disarm.  One time there were three or four of us fighting this warrior that had been in the Byn for a long while and his main defense against us was disarm.  Sure he kind of spammed it, but a warrior is supposed to be kick ass at one thing mainly and that's fighting and it was a hell of a battle and it was freaking fun.  And the guy didn't even flee we all just battled it out.  Reaching for our weapons, running about trying to beat this guy.  I've never done this myself with my warriors or anyone with these skills in their subguild and I've never had a problem with seeing people doing it in sparring.  I suppose there is the occasional person that over does it but that can always be reported just like if someone is power emoting or spamming, whatever.

[Nao]

Provided the delay is not so long and that a warrior gets more than one chance to use his skills in kick/bash/disarm, I think this might also be a positive addition.  The only possible problem is that, if the delay is too long, warriors will be just a little better than assassin/rangers in melee.

Warriors are currently a LOT better than rangers, let alone assassins, even if they don't use their bash/kick/disarm.

[jhunter]

Yeah, that's what I found really disturbing is that I've hardly seen anyone spamming them either. Maybe three people in all the time I've played.

[Ghost]

Warriors are currently a LOT better than rangers, let alone assassins, even if they don't use their bash/kick/disarm.

Well, Warriors are supposed to be the best in melee anyway.  They have the highest cap in the melee skills, also they get the kick/disarm/bash.  Now that they get a stamina penalty for using those skills, I would think making a big delay for using the same skill in a fight would be a significant penalty.  So I think stamina loss is a good addition.  I also can vote that this kind of delay is a good addition, provided the delay is not so big.

[Gaare]

I agree this is a good addition. I do not see any real problem of that change of course now one can not spam this: "disarm;get all"

Also if I am not mistaken, I remember a discussion from almost two years before. Adding stamina decrease in melee, i.e. a tiny piece of stamina decrease in every say thirty seconds of melee combat. That would be realistic and fun.

[Spoon]

Great idea about losing stamina. This would make even those stalemate combats you get between two skilled warriors exciting, it being possible to wear each other out.

[FightClub]

*shakes head, then shakes head some more*

No.

[FightClub]

*finishes shaking his head*

No
NO
No no no NO

These are the basics warriors are built upon.  As you continue to institute these things you only make warriors -worse- off.  Soon enough, we'll have 0 pbase playing warriors, and -everyone- that is combat oriented playings rangers.  Is this the true aim of the staff?  To have everyone shooting bows and running around navigating storms.  I desperately -want- a place for warriors within armageddon.  But with these changes  I see my chances of ever wanting to play one again quickly diminishing.  You want to flag something for a timer, how about backstab.  That gets misused more than disarm, kick, or bash, and has more devistating consequences.  Yet I don't see the spam flee backstabbing assassin getting -touched- Nope just warriors.  Argue about their weapon caps all you want. But 3/4 warriors will never live to see those caps.  They depend point blank upon those three skills.  And guess what, NOT ONLY do we have stamina decreasing with use, we might have a nifty little lag timer on it as well.  Sorry Raes, unless somthing of similar effect is stamped on every class I completely disagree with this.  Just like I disagree with the movement loss, and just as I will continue to disagree with any changes made to warrior that don't subsequently boost their strength against the overwhelming dangers about that they should be able to fight, but can't.  Cause -oops- we're not a ranger, and only rangers can live on Armageddon.

-Fight.

[Ghost]

You want to flag something for a timer, how about backstab. That gets misused more than disarm, kick, or bash, and has more devistating consequences.

With the long lag of backstab, and its not being repeatable in the combat it already has its flaws.  Yet, with the addition of the new watch skills, the penalty you are asking was already added to the skill anyway.  And since Morgenes is adding stamina penalties to all skills, backstab will get even another penalty.

They depend point blank upon those three skills.

If you truly mean that, I bet you never had a warrior played even for a moderate time.  Warriors, beat the crap out of any living being when it comes to melee.  If a warrior can't beat it in melee, no other guild can.  That is what it is to be a warrior.  So disarm/kick/bash does not make a warrior the master of melee.  It is the skill caps in offense/defense, weapons skills, parry/shield use/dual wield that makes a warrior a master of melee.  If a ranger/assassin is able to outfight a warrior in melee, that means the ranger/assassin is older in playing times or had more chance of using his skills.

That gets misused more than disarm, kick, or bash, and has more devistating consequences.

I would like to comment on this one again:  A warrior with high disarm is unbeatable in melee.  He can disarm an opponent, and collect the dropped weapon from the ground.  He can do it until his opponent has ran out of all melee weapons.  And anyone with no weapons can be killed with a walking stick.  So this is as dangerous skill as sap/backstab.  

Now I don't really see why it is such a big deal to lose stamina trying to do some special move in fight.  Warrior already holds the upper hand in terms of melee, and even if he has lower skills, he can pay the price of stamina, and still gain the upper hand.  Doing the same maneuver over and over is no use so a warrior has to be smart and surprise his opponent at every move.   So, in this whole story, what is the unrealistic part again?

[Morfeus]

We still are considering adding this in addition to the stamina loss, or instead of it, or along with a change in how much stamina is lost.

I have no idea how big is the stamina lost, but I would much more like to see this "cooldown" instead of it. On the other side, if the stamina lost is not really huge, it probably does not matter for people who do not spam-bash or something.

EDITed to add: Thinking about it, I would like to see backstab added to the list. But perhaps that is just me.

[RunningMountain]

I think spells need a cooldown.  

[Nao]

Nothing will make warriors useless, fightclub. rangers SUCK at combat comapared to warriors, and so does everyone else. warriors get some kind if bonus, don'T exactly know at what point in the code this comes into play, but most fresh warriors will beat a 5 day ranger or more right off the start. warriors kick some major ass even without those skills, I'm prety sure that they start at much higher skill percentages than any other class, that or there's soem direct combat bonus. Nothing beats a warrior with equal play time. disarm or not.

[John]

I think spells need a cooldown.  

I hope that's a joke. IMO beginning spell crafters are more then well balanced.

[Halaster]

I think spells need a cooldown.  

I hope that's a joke. IMO beginning spell crafters are more then well balanced.

We're not going to do this, don't worry.

Something else I'd like to add to the discussion.  Sometimes the 'realism' factor is what drives a change, too, as opposed to say balance (though we still try to keep playability in mind).  In other words, we feel it's realisitic to get tired during combat, including using kick/bash/disarm.  Which is why we're looking into adding it to other skills.  The driving force is not to "nerf" warriors, but to make the game a little more realistic.

[Mental Case]

I agree with the added stamina loss. You are fighting, it is a labourous task, so it should reflect as such. I think everything in combat should slowly lower your stamina. Don't agree? You try swinging a huge ass bone sword around or spinning and moving to avoid the attacks of your foes in heavy armour...


I just can't wait to see the posts where people claim that this is a stupid addition because they spammed disarm in sparring and so neither of the sparring pair could flee because they both had no more stun.