Magick in game.

[Jakahri]

Doesn't make it very fun either. When a 10 day old magicker can come along and wipe the floor with your 15-20 day old born fighter either.

Thems the breaks? Stop fighting magickers. Run. BE AFRAID. They're powerful for a reason. No warrior, IMO, should realistically fight a magicker unless they have a damned good reason. Every time I'm accosted by one, I either a) run or b) do exactly what they want me to for fear of being slaughtered.

If you use the code correctly, a warrior can beat a magicker. I've done it.

[ashyom]

Ok, this kind of discussion is going very well.  I haven't seen any flaming, which is very very nice for a change.  However, it's going on 10 pages, and I'm starting to see some repetitions of ideas.  So I'd like to ask ya'all to wrap it up.  If you have any final thoughts, please post them within the next day or so.

That said, I wanted to add, some of you have made compelling arguments, and we staff have been discussing this topic as well.  Whether there's any changes made, only time will tell.
Keep up the good work!
Ashyom

[SpyGuy]

All magickers, particularly gemmed, have weaknesses.  They can't fight worth a damn for one and all their amazing powers drain mana.  A warrior can pick up a sword and fight with it for a RL hour in a massive battle killing wave after wave if he's good enough.  A magicker has a handful of good spells to get off in combat (some elementalists barely have any combat worthy spells) then is completely drained of mana and basically useless.

Magickers are very powerful when they're prepared.  When they're caught off guard they're about as easy to kill as merchants.  So I suggest the next time you see a magicker in the wastes you either run or you hide, and then when they're looking weak after casting a few spells you sneak up and attack.  But if you charge head on at that krathi expect to get burned.

To Dak's post:  I agree.  Magickers being such a solo profession and the system of learning spells does tend to lead to solo practice.  All elementalist classes have certain spells that are crucial to their use in a group, without them it's sort of like having a Byn runner who can't ride a kank.  They're more or less just dead weight.  Sadly I don't see any way to fix the disparity between the powerless beginnings and powerful end result of magickers.  The mid-power level of being a magicker seems to be rather short in my limited experience. (speaking for elementalists, not sorcs)

[spawnloser]

Jakahri brings up a good point: the only reason people complain that a magicker killed them, in most cases, is because they didn't display the fear of magickers that should be common.  Sure, every player knows that lowbie magickers are easy to kill.  Failing one spell, they're half-way to dead and have negligible combat skills to back things up.  I feel that the powerful magickers out there make things right by finally convincing some of you that magickers can be VERY powerful and maybe some of you will finally start roleplaying fear instead of derision and bravado when faced with a lightning throwing fury of mystical arts.

[Halaster]

I'd rather not see this thread closed anytime soon until people have said what they want to say, Ashyom.

As Delirium points out, though, the guilds are not intended to be balanced with each other.  A guild has a role, so to speak, and we give that guild skills and abilities based on that role.  We're fully aware that the guilds are unbalanced, and that's perfectly fine and acceptable to the staff.  Everyone knows a sorcerer is more powerful than a pick-pocket or a warrior - and they should be based on the way we set up the game.

Now, take a magicker and a mundane character that have both played for 5 days. Make them practice the same amount of time. Morning until midday. After the first five days is up. Who is more powerful? The magicker, everytime.

Now, continue this on. That magicker takes a break and leaves for five days, the fighter continues to train and train and train for five days PT.

The magicker comes back, practices for five more days PT, the fighter practices for five days PT.
Who is more powerful? The magicker, everytime.

I'd like to point out that if this is how you view the game you're completely missing the point.  It's not a race, nor a competition to see who's more powerful at day 5, 10, or 15.  The point is to pick a role and play it.  That role may be a weak merchant, or a sneaky pick-pocket, or a powerful mage.  They're all valid and good roles to play.  The game is about developing a character - both skills and personality.  It's not a race to the top.  There is no top.  You cannot win.  Don't try.  Instead, view characters as various roles in the whole game and give them a try and don't worry about if that mage over there is more powerful than your warrior - because he is, and that won't change.

My advice on how to have fun is stop comparing yourself to others - stop comparing the guilds to each other.  And just play to have fun in the role you choose as it is.

[Twilight]

From my experience (2 sorcs, a whole bunch of gemmed and non gemmed) there are essentially two spells that I can think of I might even consider unbalanced.  Unfortunately, doubly so if you have them at the same time.

So many of the perceptions I have seen are just so wrong.  The only horribly unbalanced magicking guild out there is sorcerers, and they are supposed to be that horribly unbalanced.  And guess what, they still die.

[Maybe42or54]

My advice on how to have fun is stop comparing yourself to others - stop comparing the guilds to each other.  And just play to have fun in the role you choose as it is.

Who said I wasn't having fun? These are just my perceptions. Most magickers I have seen IG go about life with a military schedule in mind. Atleast when they are supposedly "Weak." They practice from this time to this time. Or practice this skill so many times before they quit. On a daily basis. Usually that basis evolves around when it is time when the ginka decides they can raise their stats again.

By making the magickers more useful, you make the mundane classes less useful. Why have a group of 5+ bynners go kill something when you can pay two magickers to make themselves invisible and go blast the hell out of the target? That really doesn't sound like the greater good of RPing there.

[Twilight]

Why have a group of 5+ bynners go kill something when you can pay two magickers to make themselves invisible and go blast the hell out of the target? That really doesn't sound like the greater good of RPing there.

The greater good of RPing comes about by the choice of the person hiring them.  Hire the 5 accepted Byn, or the two hated, but admittedly more powerful (at least when working together) magickers.  Nevermind the two magickers somehow coming together and figuring out they are more powerful together than a unit of Byn in the first place.

[John]

By making the magickers more useful, you make the mundane classes less useful. Why have a group of 5+ bynners go kill something when you can pay two magickers to make themselves invisible and go blast the hell out of the target? That really doesn't sound like the greater good of RPing there.

Because that just happens, so often  :roll:

Where magickers are overpowered skill wise, they're underpowered society wise. It balances out.

[Maybe42or54]

Well John, are you saying it wont happen more and more when Magickers become more and more useful? I think it will.

[Intrepid]

And tell me if I am wrong and this is balanced.
Now, take a magicker and a mundane character that have both played for 5 days. Make them practice the same amount of time. Morning until midday. After the first five days is up. Who is more powerful? The magicker, everytime.

Now, continue this on. That magicker takes a break and leaves for five days, the fighter continues to train and train and train for five days PT.

The magicker comes back, practices for five more days PT, the fighter practices for five days PT.
Who is more powerful? The magicker, everytime.


That doesn't sound balanced.

Umm, I'll be more than happy to confirm that you're absolutely wrong.
Some spells have, in the past required someone with mundane skills to
assist the caster or be entirely useless.  Other spells are useful only in a
very narrow margin of circumstances, or with spells the player will not
see in their character for at least a branch, if not a branch-of-a-branch.

I'm sorry, but you don't know what you're talking about.  Magickers at
5 days' play are still struggling and far from able to prove themselves
even to a house/templar willing to hire them.  A 5 day mundaner has
generally joined a clan by then as a full member and might even be
enjoying a promotion by then.

[jstorrie]

It won't happen because people don't hire magickers. People avoid magickers.

You still seem to be going on about an issue of balance. Two magickers are more powerful than two bynners, no fair! Well, one templar can be more powerful than those five bynners too. One half-giant or mul, in the right situations, can be too. One sorceror or psion, ditto.

The aim of Armageddon is not to be the biggest or buffest and as such any sort of balancing comparison is inappropriate. There is no risk of a wash of magickers coming in and replacing all the 'mundanes' because they're 'better at everything.'

Magickers are supposed to be incredibly powerful and incredibly dangerous. They are not supposed to exist on the same level as 'mundanes.' The only problem with having too many magickers is that they're simply not supposed to be the focus of the game - that having that many powerful characters running around removes the mystery and 'specialness.' I don't think we've reached that point yet.

[RunningMountain]

I can think of a spell for each magicker guild that when cast on another, makes you useless. I think that is inbalance. But as was stated, inbalance isn't necessarily a bad thing all the time. But magickers are extremely powerful, and in my opinion can get too powerful just by casting spells and failing. Instead of roleplaying to get their power.

I think magick gets way too much attention, and combat is slowly deteriorating into just being what it is and that may never change.

-R

[Intrepid]

Not to mention, magick spells do not replace mundane skills.  There are
quite a few skills in each character class that a magicker is never going
to see and never going to have access to.

[Maybe42or54]

Not to mention, magick spells do not replace mundane skills.  There are
quite a few skills in each character class that a magicker is never going
to see and never going to have access to.

That is true about every class, so it isn't anything special about magickers.

[Intrepid]

I can think of a spell for each magicker guild that when cast on another, makes you useless. I think that is inbalance. But as was stated, inbalance isn't necessarily a bad thing all the time. But magickers are extremely powerful, and in my opinion can get too powerful just by casting spells and failing. Instead of roleplaying to get their power.

I think magick gets way too much attention, and combat is slowly deteriorating into just being what it is and that may never change.

You are also someone of such extreme bias that you believed (until an
imm corrected you) that magickers constituted half the player populace.
You were wrong about that.  Couldn't you possibly re-examine your other
views in relation to that as well?

[Intrepid]

Not to mention, magick spells do not replace mundane skills.  There are
quite a few skills in each character class that a magicker is never going
to see and never going to have access to.

That is true about every class, so it isn't anything special about magickers.

Yes, but some spells were made with certain skills in mind that said mage
has no access to.  Usually, a mundane class is put together with all the
skills in a nice package that requires no one else for what they do.

[RunningMountain]

I can think of a spell for each magicker guild that when cast on another, makes you useless. I think that is inbalance. But as was stated, inbalance isn't necessarily a bad thing all the time. But magickers are extremely powerful, and in my opinion can get too powerful just by casting spells and failing. Instead of roleplaying to get their power.

I think magick gets way too much attention, and combat is slowly deteriorating into just being what it is and that may never change.

You are also someone of such extreme bias that you believed (until an
imm corrected you) that magickers constituted half the player populace.
You were wrong about that.  Couldn't you possibly re-examine your other
views in relation to that as well?

I'm not bias. And I don't think half the player populace is playing a magicker, I think around 40-50% of the players on every night are playing a character with magick capabilities.  That obviously can change between each night, depending on the player. But I know its higher then 5-10 players every night like others have insisted.

[Intrepid]

I'm not bias. And I don't think half the player populace is playing a magicker, I think around 40-50% of the players on every night are playing a character with magick capabilities.  That obviously can change between each night, depending on the player. But I know its higher then 5-10 players every night like others have insisted.

So...when an imm is one of the people insisting, does that mean he's
wrong and you're right?  What source could you cite for evidence that
could possibly be more distinct than an imm's ability to see all players
logged in as well as their classes?

I'm not trying to rag you here, I just don't see how Morgenes is wrong and
you're right...?  Nor can I see how this is anything but bias.

[RunningMountain]

I can admit when I'm wrong. But a glance at the class list one night isn't going to be exact. Like I said some players don't play every night, but when the magick people get on, they get on!

[Jherlen]

I'm not bias. And I don't think half the player populace is playing a magicker, I think around 40-50% of the players on every night are playing a character with magick capabilities.  That obviously can change between each night, depending on the player. But I know its higher then 5-10 players every night like others have insisted.

No offense, buy I think I'll trust staff figures on this. Halaster has said it's far less.

My take: certainly magicker classes are far more powerful than others. This is fine, their power is moderated by the fact that they are outcast socially and even actively hunted in large areas of the world.

I also don't think, barring some huge world-changing event, that magickers will ever become more accepted or more actively employed than they are now.

[Morgenes]

For the record 1 in 6 players on tonight have some magickal ability.

[RunningMountain]

Fine there's only a dozen on every night. I concur. I was just arguing even though I was wrong.  (hey it's what I do)


The problem though is magick IS so powerful, yet you learn so easily with it. In my opinion, you shouldn't be able to get so powerful with a magicker/sorcerer/ without roleplay/logs and staff help. Because it's taking something powerful (magick) and making it easy to learn and easy to become powerful with. Whereas combat and all the other combat abilities (throw/kick/archery etc) which aren't as powerful as magick, take a lot longer.

[Intrepid]

For the record 1 in 6 players on tonight have some magickal ability.

Thanks, Morg.

Those figures don't seem that bad to me.  Say there's about 60 pcs on
tonight as the average.  10 pcs are mages of all stripes--sorcs included.
They're still in the vast minority, folks.  It's not something to get worked
up over and claim it's damaging the game, because it's not.  This is the
figure for the entire gameworld, including any mages hidin in the wastes,
in the Rinth, in one of the villages or walking among the masses in Tuluk
for that matter.

[Maybe42or54]

Well intrepid, If you log on and see all 7 magickers and only 10 mundane Pcs, then yea. that is way too much. Other pcs will log on and see 20 people and no magickers. I logged in yesterday and saw 4 mundane Pcs and 2 magickers. That's 50% to me. I'm not exaggerating.

May not be overall, but that is how they are to me. Magickers aren't spread out sometimes.

And Blind fighting was a new skill added for mundane fighters, so the ratio of new non-mundane to mundane new skills are alot:1. Not saying that is good or bad, but for a low magick game, it seems like a lot. When over half the guilds are magick related, seems like a lot.

Editted to add: When I last played in Allanak I would usually see 4-6 Magicker Pcs and 6-8 mundane ones Pcs.