Heroes and Villians

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

So, are there heroes and villians in the world of Zalanthas?

Obviously, Batman and Superman do not exist here, so the question is not asked in that vein. But are there heroes and villians, and what are the nature of these?

Personally, I tend to see heroes in Armageddon as the heroes of Frank Miller's 'Sin City' books ... flawed and rough, border-line good, not committing travesties such as baby-eatting, people. Villians, I would think, exist in the same parameters, except they happen to be opposed to the current regime.

I am told that there is no 'knight in shining armor' in Zalanthas, that such a depiction is un-Zalanthan, but if this is true, then there is no 'black knight' either, is there, the destroyer of civilizations, the poison on the shadows of darkness and unrest.

Let's have discussion on this topic. I think it would serve those who want to play a good guy in our setting, and perhaps those who wish to play the bad guy.

[Marauder Moe]

I disagree about the "Black Knight" actually.  I think in Zalanthas there may be beings who for some reason or another are actually evil.  They don't have good intentions, they don't believe they're doing something for the greater good of anything.  At best they're supremely selfish, at worst they have an actual hatred of most other living things and wish to bring pain and death to the world.

The great tragedy of Zalanthas is that these forces aren't counteracted by champions of peace and justice.  Instead, civilization survives off the protection of lesser evils (Tek/Muk) who just want their piece of the world and are willing to let others exist to serve them.

[wizturbo]

I don't think classifying a character as good or evil, hero or villian, or any other dichotomy is useful in the Zalanthas setting.  The reason for it is pretty simple, it's all a matter of perspective.  A great character will be both a hero and a villian, depending on who's viewing them.  So play a great character and let other people decide what to call them.

[LauraMars]

Let's define hero.  Save the world, stick up for the underdog, fresh water and food and shade for everyone?  Yes, these people exist.  They can exist in the darkest of places.  I've played with them, and for sure they had their own distinct zalanthan flair.  But they still had that mindset of WORLD SAVING.  Knights in shining armor?  Maybe.  But they'd still cut you, bitch.  Cause that's what Armageddon's all about.

Also I'm sure that, because there are knights who want to be heros, there are those depraved individuals who want to completely destroy the world - though I've never met any of them.  Maybe I will play one.

And anyway, my character is totally Batman.

[Tamarin]

You might be Batman, but my character is....





>>>>>>>>>THE FLASH

[LoD]

Let's have discussion on this topic. I think it would serve those who want to play a good guy in our setting, and perhaps those who wish to play the bad guy.

"Good, bad.  I'm the guy with the gun." (Bruce Campbell)

Heroes and villains are entirely at the mercy of the judges, and quite often their tell tale deeds of heroism or debauchery are penned by the hand of he who won by might, not right.

For example, a northern born officer of the Sun Legion who completes several succesful raids against a tribal uprising of elves might be seen as a hero to Tuluk, and a villain to the obliterated tribe.  I imagine that your question pertains less to the muddled notion of perceived heroism or villainy as much as what personality traits and/or morals are most commonly associated with someone we, as players, might label a hero or villain within Zalanthas.

In a world teeming with corruption, ignorance and brutality, I would say that most people would find heroism and villainy is the martial accomplishments of a given person.  These are a tangible accounting of one man's deeds, something the common people can see and understand.  They would likely value (or fear) strength, physical prowess, demonstrated skill at arms, courage and tactical brilliance over moral values such as honesty, self sacrifice, patience, understanding or wisdom.

I find it unlikely that you will hear many tales of the heroic "Bakemaster Brelan" who single handedly oversaw the feeding of the armies during the last seige of the northlands.  Likewise you wouldn't hear terrible tales of the hated "Jeryl the Shrewd", who's financial wizardry served as the keystone to sustaining the enemy's seige.

A few years ago, I created a character with the intent of providing the world with a non-magickal "villain" that would prey upon the travellers of the desert.  The two factors I felt would grant me the best chance of being considered a dirty rotten scoundrel were:

-Imposing your will upon others by force.
-Being ruthless (and strong) enough to back up my threats.

In the end I was snubbed out by someone far stronger than I, and perhaps in someone's eyes, that made him a hero.

-LoD

[Larrath]

I agree with Moe's take.

You can't say that a defiler, who selfishly hurts the entire world for his personal gain, is not a villian.  Sure, maybe that defiler is working for something other than his own personal good, but those are pretty rare.
On the other hand, there are no heroes.
There is no justice to be upheld, truth is meaningless and innocence doesn't exist; only stupidity.  Love does exist and might be able to play a part in heroism, but that's probably due to influence from our OOC upbringing and culture.
Most Zalanthans would probably kill their One True Love with their own hands if the price was right - money, a big promotion, greater power and influence or ancient/mystical knowledge.

Good and Evil probably exist far beyond the comprehension of most characters.  If your character is a hard-working Templar that brings peace and order to the entire 'rinth without killing most of the population, is that good or evil?
On one hand, the templar made life better for everyone living in Allanak.  The 'rinthis can work and eat now, and the other people don't get attacked by 'rinthis as often.  On the other hand, this same templar now made Tektolnes' empire stronger.  Is Tektolnes a force for Good?  Is Muk Utep?  It's very possible that they're both forces of Evil...so does that make the criminal group that blew up the Militia headquarters a force of Good?
Actual good and evil is simply invisible for all but the most influential and knowledgeable people.

Being a villian only requires your character to be more selfish or inclined towards violence than other characters - if your character would kill someone for saying your name incorrectly and immediately apologizing afterwards, you're probably a villian.  If your character would sell a waterskin to a dying man in the desert, you're a regular Zalanthan or a good person depending on what you charge.  If you give away a waterskin to a dying man in the desert, you're an idiot.

[Rindan]

I personally am of LoD's perspective.  There is no 'good' or 'evil', just different perspective.  Which city state is the evil one?  The one that has eked out a living in the worst place you could possibly imagine using some times brutal means to keep the half a million people alive?  Or are the heroes in the city state that quietly makes people disappear and struggles to keep up the appearance of civility all the while ignoring its seedy underbelly?  Maybe the hero is Kurac, with their own unique sense of justice that often times is fair and more egalitarian... if you don't fuck with their profits.

I don't think that there are any good guys.  The lack of good guys makes it damn near impossible to have any real bad guys.  A Templar who is a military hero will be hero to one part of the world and the most vile of villains in the other.  Hell, even a raider blurs the lines.  A raider that targets 'nakkies is freedom fighter in enemy territory to Tuluk and a villain in Allanak.  Even the most vile of delfiers live in a grey place.  If I recall correctly Safe was remembered as a great villain to many, but he also is the same guy who murdered a few slave owning Borsail.

Personally, I think that Armageddon is always at its best when it is at its greyest.  I think that a nice grey world is one of the best features of Armageddon.  The number one reason why I can't stomach most of the other RPIs out there is because they are set in worlds with sharply divided 'good' and 'evil' lines.

[Cuusardo]

Good and evil are very subjective.

[amoeba]

I think there are a lot of characters who -think- they are heros.  A good example would be a delf thinking they are protecting the lands.  Doesn't mean they are. A hero to one may be a villan to another.

[Aldiel]

So, are there heroes and villians in the world of Zalanthas?

Obviously, Batman and Superman do not exist here, so the question is not asked in that vein. But are there heroes and villians, and what are the nature of these?

Personally, I tend to see heroes in Armageddon as the heroes of Frank Miller's 'Sin City' books ... flawed and rough, border-line good, not committing travesties such as baby-eatting, people. Villians, I would think, exist in the same parameters, except they happen to be opposed to the current regime.

I am told that there is no 'knight in shining armor' in Zalanthas, that such a depiction is un-Zalanthan, but if this is true, then there is no 'black knight' either, is there, the destroyer of civilizations, the poison on the shadows of darkness and unrest.

Let's have discussion on this topic. I think it would serve those who want to play a good guy in our setting, and perhaps those who wish to play the bad guy.

Nicely put, by the way.  I agree with you too.

And yeah, I think there are super heroes.  I'm one myself     That's not a plane in the sky you see.   :shock:

[Halaster]

I would like to emphasize one key point Thunder Lord made that I whole-heartedly agree with.  Zalanthas are still humans with human emotions.  Most Zalanthas would not sell their One True Love for a waterskin of water.  Zalanthans (even the elves!) can decide to help others and it's not OOC for them to do so (as TL said, they may have other motives for it though).  A Zalanthan woman who sees a starving baby on the street can very easily have compassion for it and take and feed it.  She may sell it into slavery later, or she may raise it as her own.

Zalanthas is a brutal world by all means, but the people are still people and have emotions - good and bad.

[Bakha]

To me the beauty of Armageddon's Heroes and Villains is that one person's hero is another person's villain.

That heroic ALA freedom fighter from the Labyrinth who distributes coins to beggars and fights against the oppression of Tektolnes' minions becomes a trap-setting, civilian-killing terrorist as soon as he goes southside.

The nature-loving Vivaduan living peacably among likeminded individuals trying to restore balance to the blighted land of Zalanthas becomes the demonic target for a righteous lynch mob inside a city.

The pious Chosen of Muk Utep, devoutly serving the just cause of their King are rebellious enemies of the good citizens of Allanak.

This ability of Armageddon to capture the relativistic nature of "good" and "evil" is one of the things I think truly sets it apart from other muds with entrenched alignment systems.

[flurry]

Hero/villain a matter of perspective?  Well, yeah.  It is in real life too.  Look at the political realm.  Still, there is some common ground on what is considered heroic and what is considered villainous, even if there's not agreement on who has those traits.  I think that's part of the reason the hero/villain thing is more fuzzy in the Song of Fire and Ice series -- because it's told from a variety of perspectives.

In terms of traits, this is perhaps oversimplifying but I think people tend to look at selfless acts as heroic and selfish behavior as villainous.  Especially when it's outside of the norm.  Everyone's selfish to some extent, but if it's truly a dominant part of their nature, it starts to earn them the label of villain.

I also think it makes more sense to discuss this from the perspective of one city-state or one group of people.  What would be heroic to this tribe or that?  Who would be considered a villain to the average citizen of this city-state?  That kind of thing.

I've never liked the idea that everyone is purely self-interested in Zalanthas, because that just seems a little cartoonish and unrealistic.  Yes, people are desperate for resources in short supply, but pure selfishness isn't always a terribly good survival strategy.  

I read a news story yesterday about a study that suggests altruism (in some form) is hard wired into people, and it is one of the things that separates humans from the rest of the animals.  It was an experiment that showed toddlers would attempt to help out someone in need, even if they weren't asked for help and they were not rewarded for helping.  Yet they wouldn't help in a similar situation if it looked like the person didn't really need help.  It's actually really interesting (I thought) and made me think of this thread.  I didn't really do it justice with my description, so here's the link.