Why dwarves would be the inventors of Zalanthas.

[Anonymous]

The main argument for the lack of invention on zalanthas is (as far as I know):

...because other more important things are distracting: who would be thinking about making glass when you have to worry about food and water? It is only when an entire culture reaches a state of "easy living" that it will begin to make inventions.

Which, brings me to the question, "What would be a good IC reason to invent something that is not needed?" There is no way to make inventing seem IC unless you HAD to invent something out of NECESSITY"

"who would HAVE to invent something out of NECESSITY"

Dwarves! Thier focus is not optional, it is the key to thier existence. And it is INDEED IC to have any dwarf foci that you desire.

http://www.armageddon.org/rp/racial/focus.html

It is a single, overwhelming goal which motivates every thought and action in a dwarf's life. A dwarf may do things unrelated to the focus - but it will always be at the back of their head, nagging them. A dwarf will never do something contrary to their focus, ever. A dwarf likely does not refer to their focus in terms of "this is my focus." To them, it is entirely natural; the focus is what it means to be alive. The focus is not bothersome or alien to the dwarf at all. Dwarves would begin thinking that all beings are dominated by this same drive. If and when a dwarf discovers that others do not share this focus, they will probably become alienated and possibly acquire a distaste all non-dwarves - although the interpretation and extent of this alienation and distaste depends on a dwarf's individual personality.

What Constitutes a Good Dwarven Focus?

The simple answer: Anything.

Also, as a general rule, a focus should neither be impossible nor easy - but rather, something that is possibly attainable over a long period of time if it is worked hard upon. The focus should be something your character is not close to achieving

I shouldent need to say more, but, I will give an example.

Dwarven PC's background.
Was born to a merchant family, yada yada yada. when traveling mounts were killed and half of the family died from dehydration.
Focus: To ensure it impossible to lose water when traveling.
And the dwarf will be forced out of necessity to invent the water thingy suit from the movie DUNE.

background 2:
Dwarf was born to a weapons crafting family.
focus: Make the hardest and strongest and deadlyist weapon in the known world.
The dwarf will be forced to invent a way to find steel.

background 3:
Dwarf was born to a mining family but was always too weak to do serious mining herself.
focus: To mine more then any one individual.
Because she is weak and unable to mine more then everyone else she is forced out of necessity to invent some sort of contraption to do it for her.


After all, necessity is the mother of invention.

the Focus pretty much FORCES a necessity.


All in all, the dwarves, I would imagine, would be the people who do most of the inventing, innovating, etc. They would be some of the most 'crafty' people in arm.



Agree, disagree, opinions?

[Manhattan]

After all, necessity is the mother of invention.

Amen, brother!

I love the idea of crafty, innovative dwarves. Brings a whole new side to Zalanthas. I can visualize them now...the dwarves from World of Warcraft with those giant gun blades and other quirky steam-powered gadgets.


However, I have some bad news for you. I made a PC once with an inventor background. It was rejected two, count 'em, TWO times. The staff member obviously didn't like the idea of anything 'technological' in Zalanthas.

I gave up.

It would seem that technology would break IC atmosphere, so....this won't be a great idea. Sorry, man. Zalanthas should stay in the primitive backwaters.

That means no stillsuits! (though that would kick sooooo much ass)

No glass-lensed desert goggles either. (which would also rock my socks off)

No steel. (which would kick ass, but it breaks the atmosphere. Remember, Zalanthan steel is fucking rare)

And worst of all, no hydraulic/pneumatic powered mining machine.

Think of the game as a stubborn, inflexible stick you can't bend. Your rationale for innovations is genius, but it's trying to bend the stick that won't bend.

Changing the way the game works...is pretty impossible. How old is the MUD....like a decade old?

[Jherlen]

I'm sure that given enough time, we could all construct arguments that Zalanthans have magick and the world has strong winds, hey lets have airships too. Or muskets. Or cannons. Or plastic. Or stuff like they have in DUNE. That isn't to say any of this would be good to have in the game.

Dwarves aren't super inventors capable of amazing feats, they're just very very very stubborn and dedicated to whatever they want to do. They can't achieve miracles and they don't always succeed at their foci. Just because a dwarf could spend his life trying to invent an airship doesn't mean we should put them in the game.

[Cenghiz]

I always thought gemmer humans in House Oash would be the ones experimenting.. They have access to food, water, inhuman powers, patrons who usually like to know and learn, and other folks around with inhuman powers. They're not really bothered by the tyranny or other conditions which would make a human's life hard.
But hell yes, I would understand if a dwarf tries to make rockets with flashpowder and kank kidneys.

[Intrepid]

All gemmed magickers in Allanak who are doing well will probably be the
ones experimenting.  There are signs of cultural development in that
quarter that must be seen to be believed--and having seen it myself, I'd
love to see more on the culture of Nakki elementalists, as it's one of my
favorite areas in the game.  There's a lot of stuff going on in that quarter
if you read the descriptions carefully, and I'm betting it's the result of
magickal research and development.

As for dwarves, not all their foci revolve around research and betterment.
Some may have to do with thwarting another dwarf's focus, either
deliberately or not.  Some foci, as I've read, are so ridiculous as to be
clinically insane.  Still others are long-spanning tasks that seem frivolous
and whimsical to any other humanoid, but the dwarf in question will,
of course, vehemently disagree.

Dwarven foci are limited by materials and possibility, so there probably
are some minor strides in industry and science, but not enough for the
dwarven populace to significantly push Zalanthan development in any
direction.

[Ghardoan]

While I feel that your first two examples may be a tad bit extreme, I do think that you may be on to something.  I personally would like to see technology in Zalanthas progress at least a little bit as years upon years pass by.  It seems that our otherwise ever-changing world has historically been rather inert, in this respect.

On the other hand, I wouldn't expect anything too grand; aside from the various in-character reasons as to why the technology level of Zalanthas develops so slowly (if at all), the effort that will be required on the part of the staff should also be taken into consideration.  Maybe just a few new tools for crafting, a more effective arrow, or a new method of treating leather?

Hmm... Yes! That's it!

Go forth, my dwarven minions!


Ghardoan the dwarf tamer.

Edit: After writing the above, I realized that I was focusing too much on invention in Zalanthas as a whole and less on dwarves as inventors... Oops! Please don't hit me!

[EvilRoeSlade]

What Constitutes a Good Dwarven Focus?

The simple answer: Anything.

You neglected to mention what follows after that blanket statement, which is even more important.

Since a focus is not an alien presence that comes upon a dwarf, but rather a natural feeling that is inseparable from them, the nature of their focus should arise from what comes naturally to them. For most dwarves, their life has been hard and their needs rudimentary - and their focus should reflect this. A focus of providing food for an ailing relative, escaping slavery from a cruel master, serving a kind master with absolute trust, gaining revenge on a man who killed your brother - these things are all taken from the day to day life of the dwarf, and thus, are appropriate.

Similarly, dwarves who have been brought up in luxury will have a different trend to their foci. Spreading a philosophy? Organizing a guild? Documenting the history of their race? A dwarf who has had an easier life will naturally gravitate to foci less concerned with day to day survival. A dwarf who has gone insane could have all sorts of bizarre foci - get to one of the moons? eat only ginka fruit? Teach a vestric to talk? The bottom line is that your foci should arise from the facts of your character's personality and background.

Dwarves live side to side amongst humans, sharing their hardships, their struggles, and their victories.  Generally, dwarves desire the same things humans do.  Their personalities are similar to human personalities.  Their goals, above all, are HUMAN goals.  The biggest difference between a dwarf and a human is that if a human strived all his life to fulfill his dreams, then those dreams would still look like no more than idle fantasies and wistful daydreams compared to the perserverance, dedication, and sheer stubborn arrogance of a dwarf.

Because of this, foci such as "Make a kalan fruit talk" or "Become Tektolnes" or "Discover a way to fly" would be incredibly rare amongst dwarves.  You wouldn't find such insanity and madness amongst them any more frequently than you would a human.

Most dwarven focuses would actually help them and their genes survive.  Focuses such as "raise a family" or "Protect my sister and her children" would set the standard for the focus of a dwarven commoner.

In any event, a dwarven focus is born out of the necessities and limitations of a dwarf's life.  A dwarf accepts that there are no water-suits or steam engines and proceeds with their life and focus without ever stopping to think that maybe their should be.  Dwarves, like pragmatic humans, are more likely to work within the guidelines of reality than attempt to destroy reality itself.

It would be very rare for a dwarven focus to reach a point where it would be unable to proceed without the invention of new technologies.  But in the event that it did reach that point, a dwarf would certainly attempt invention, assuming that no other paths would lead to the completion of her focus.

But even in that event it doesn't really matter.

Without the ability to read and write, even a dwarf doesn't stand a chance in hell.

[Larrath]

I don't really want to see that much technological advancement.  It's a slope, anyone could take some flash powder, put it at one end of a stone tube and set it up to launch some rocks.  Given a year or two of experimenting (especially if we consider the various magickers), it would be possible to make super-powered crossbows that launch rocks at high speeds.

That wouldn't be very cool, though, and ultimately doesn't seem likely to make the game any better.  On the other hand, if you came up with Zalanthan technology that has no Earthling (or Dune, or some other) counterpart, that could be cool.

[Intrepid]

Zalanthans have progressed, just not in the classic ways.  They've
adapted to survive and thrive with less resources than we can imagine.
Pound for pound, these resourceful bastards can probably manage their
materials and holdings better than anyone we can imagine because the
alternative is starvation and dehydration.

Industry obviously exists in the merchant houses, even Kurac.  The
architecture of even the smaller villages could be vastly superior, given
that these structures must survive a more savage set of elements than
Earth equivalents would need to.  Flash powder, argosies, silt skimmers
and massive, clockwork locks do indicate leaps in technology in some
fields.  The lack of harder materials or a common smelting process does
make advancement in some areas stunted, but there is no denying that
high technology is out there, if you know where to look.

[Maybe42or54]

Oh and then theres the problem that most inventions die with the inventor. OR shortly after.

[Halaster]

That is enough of a reason to invent fire works, cannons, a flying device, or whatever is needed for whatever thier evil plans my be.

No, it's not enough.  I agree, invention typically has come from necessity, but those people in need also had the resources to accomplish what they were trying.  On Zalanthas, those resources either don't exist, are are not readily available.  Also, let's face it, most technological advances seem to be based on the fact the inventor can read and write - which most Zalanthans cannot.  I'm not talking about simple stuff like the wheel, or fire, but advanced things like.. chemistry.

[Cale_Knight]

I think the idea that since there's no reading and writing, invention is going to be nigh impossible is overstated. All the great merchant houses are literate at some level. All the noble houses are literate. The help files imply that at least some tribals are literate.

In other words, the people in the position to really make technological strides already have the means to preserve information.

If I were a dwarf with a focus to create a new way to do something, and thought I had a great method, I'd do anything to accomplish it, right? That could mean going to a merchant or noble house and convincing them to fund and support my efforts.

On the other hand, I agree that too much technology would ruin the atmosphere of Armageddon. While I think that, say, primitive guns and cannons are absolutely possible with the current level of Zalanthan technology - we already have gunpowder after all - I don't really want to see them around.

[Nusku]

The lack of metal is a pretty hefty hindrance to technological invention. The Aztec and Incan cultures were complex, interesting, and technologically stunted by the lack of access to harder metals like iron and bronze.

[Seeker]

I will pop in here with the claim that invention can and does happen on Zalanthas.  I have run into a few dedicated inventors in my time, and have played a fairly well-known, successful inventor myself.

As long as you keep in mind that the average tools you have to work with are fire, stones, bone shards, clay, flower petals, poop, pelts, sand, crappy wood, guts and a few textiles you are good to go.

There a literally millions of great ideas out there, staying within the genre, that have yet to be created.  I still have a few dozen that I never got around to.

In fairness, I should mention that my design for the Silt Sea submarine was a dismal and painfully realistic failure.

Seeker

[Bebop]

Part of not being able to read and write is to keep the commoners down.  The Templarate want to keep a state of control a state of constance around them even if it is at the sacrifice of progress.  That's an IC reason but I think more importantly OOC we -can't- have progress because then Zalanthas would not be the same place that we no and love if we have all sorts of futuristic thingies in it.  As well because we live in a more advanced world and society than Zalanthas we could try to use or knowledge to some how implement technologies into a world that isn't the same as the one we live in the, the result would be complicated and change Zalanthas from the harsher world to one more... advanced?  Corporate?  I play Zalanthas because of the harshness, because I like battling it out with my blades and getting sand in my hair and tracking my next victim.-because- people are ignorant and somewhat primitive.  We live in an advance world now, that's why OOC and slightly IC progress shouldn't happen in my opinion.

[Aldiel]

Inventors?  Who are the great inventors--those that cannot see past one objective, or those who take the whole picture in?  Dwarves are single minded and thus uncreative.  Their inability to look outside of the box keeps them from developing any fresh ideas.  Modern psychology has a theory that those with ADD (Attention Deficit Disorder) are capable of greater leaps in thought because their mind is less focused on one particular aspect.  Think about it.  Ever thought so hard about something that it started to slip out of reach?  Have do you salve that problem?  Try not thinking about it so hard. That's sort of what's happening.  Those that can take a step back from the situation and be open to all ideas are those that can synthesize the concepts into a greater conclusion.  Dwarfs make stout laborers because of their single-mindedness, not inventors.

[Reito]

I personally would love to see some handy inventions in Zalanthas. Since I started playing, I haven't seen any real change at all. And, historically, it just seems to have been the same old thing since the time of the dragon. Ooh. Lets send big illiterate army against this other big illiterate army and have them clash sharpened sticks and throw stones. Not trying to sound insulting, or anything, but seriously, we need atleast /some/ changes. Even if they're tiny ones. A six hundred mile cross-country walk starts by putting one foot infront of the other.

[proxie]

There are a lot of interesting and to a Zalanthan, fantastical inventions out there.  However, the governments of the known world tend to keep such things under wraps.

There are stills, pianos, heavy crossbows, syringes. But unless you've seen such a thing.... your character has no idea about any of them.  Most people mention something to their local Kurac, Salarr, or Kadian and they're convinced by that merchant that what they have for sale is what the consumer needs.  Or they're given a blank stare or asked why they think they need a musical instrument that plays by pressing keys when there are other instruments that would make music equally well.

Invention happens when people with resources to create want or need something. Your average commoner has no resources. Your average noble has no real want to create. Your average rich merchant family member has no real need.

Exceptions to this rule? Sure. There probably are. I'd like to see the occasional maxxed out tinker be able to invent small things as part of their submissions. But very few would make anything world changing and a lot of them would re-invent the wheel.

Proxie

[Spoon]

If any, I'd like to see more original Zalanthan inventions rather than the boring crap other people already invented in real life.

Remember also that these inventions don't need to be plausible. In fact, make sure they wouldn't work in real life for shit so we can clog the boards with endless nitpicky threads.

[Anonymous]

Ooh. Lets send big illiterate army against this other big illiterate army and have them clash sharpened sticks and throw stones.

Same thing happened on earth and lasted for many 'many' years. That's why we're all so giddy about the fabled rennaisance, because then things indeed began to change and minds began to open. Fortunately, Zalanthan's inquisition actually 'can' rely on their deity to give them power to smite the heretic. Do an experiment, come inside the tavern and invite everyone to witness a demonstration of your character's newst invention ... the printing press. Then count seconds untill you die.

[Vesperas]

The printing press? I think that's a tad bit extreme...

But what about that aging half-blind herbalist, who sits in the back of a shop he once owned but is now forced to work in?  The pain in those gnarled hands is making his work slower and slower... wouldn't it be nice if he could find a better way to grind those herbs into powder, without raking his knuckles so badly?

The skinny little assassin who just can't manage to reach that knife sheathed at his waist fast enough... perhaps there is a better place for it, a different way to wear it?

The human ranger's been having one hell of a time getting his stubborn mount to obey... maybe there is something he could use to "persuade" his companion in the desert that is more effective than cooing, shouting, and whips?

Where in the world did you think the idea for a drum, or water belt, or more secure reins came from?